Lil-gun in small .22 centre fire rifles...

14 October 2003, 03:23

Hello from Scotland~

I have seen some amazing velocities claimed to have been obtained with this powder at "normal" pressures, with excellant acuracy to boot !

Is it really the dogs bollocks ? When it comes to .22 Hornet .22 k-Hornet and my .218 Bee ??

Im very tempted to buy a tub and see what all the fuss is about [Roll Eyes]

What has your experince been with Lil-gun in your dinky .22's ????

Englander

14 October 2003, 03:56

C. A. Plater

I use it in 2 calibers extensively, .22 hornet and .25-20. In the hornet I cannot quite equal the velocity of H110 loads (+3000fps) of Hornady 35 grain Vmax bullet because I run out of case capacity but pressures are definitly down with maximum MV in the 2900fps range. My .25-20 loads are for a Contender and are way over factory loads but I see no pressure signs there either. I've done some .357 magnum loads and so far so good but when I tried it in .44 magnum the benefits disappeared so to speak and have stuck with the H110 powder.

14 October 2003, 04:22

<North of 60>

just started with this powder in 22 Hornet and it is weird! Light bullets it gets great speed, good accuracy and very low pressure as measured by case capacity. Seems very well suited to medium weight 45 grainers. Haven't found data on 50 and 55 grainers but am quite impressed so far.

14 October 2003, 04:53

Hobie

Works great in cartridges like the .22 Hornet, .218 Bee and even the .41 Rem Mag but no improvement over H110/W296 in the .44 Mag. Should do very well in the .357 Mag and Max but still won't equal 1680 in the Max.

14 October 2003, 05:33

<Varmint Hunter>

Lil'Gun works great in my .221 Fireball rifle. I can easily reach 3,600 ft/sec with a Nosler 40gr B-Tip (moly) bullet. That is about 400 ft/sec faster than I can get with RE7 or IMR 4198. Very accurate too.

I also noticed that according to Hodgdon, when shooting Lil'Gun in the 454 Casull, you can achieve TOP velocity with a 300gr bullet and you can do this with a significant REDUCTION in chamber pressure. (about 10,000 psi less)

I'll have to try that soon. [Razz]

14 October 2003, 09:18

JAYB

Englander, so am I

I use it in my BRNO Hornet when I can get it, (it's as rare as hen's teeth North of Inverness) and get 2997 fps with 13 grains behind a Hornady 40 gr V-Max, with accuracy sub MOA, and no pressure. It seems that it is impossible to get enough of it into a Hornet case to produce dangerous pressure levels.

I have just got some Vectan powder to try have not yet had a chance to give it a go. I see that it appears in the Lee second edition reloader, I shall let you know how I get on with it.

John

14 October 2003, 23:41

<North of 60>

Hold The Phone:

Got Cocky and tried 13 grains with 45 grain Hornady in my 22 Hornet. Case stuck and expansion was excessive. Seemed like a gross overload and this is a listed load. I don't have the recalled lot...... weird and erratic powder?

15 October 2003, 01:14

I use 13 Grains under a 35 Grain VMAX in a CZ American (22 Hornet) and have no problems.
Pete

[ 10-14-2003, 16:14: Message edited by: PJ ]

15 October 2003, 01:30

Hobie

quote:
Originally posted by North of 60:
Hold The Phone:

Got Cocky and tried 13 grains with 45 grain Hornady in my 22 Hornet. Case stuck and expansion was excessive. Seemed like a gross overload and this is a listed load. I don't have the recalled lot...... weird and erratic powder?

Yep, that is cocky as it is NOT a listed load. In the Hogdon manual 13 gr. ends at 40 gr. bullets. This is why it pays to refer to more than one manual and to work up.

15 October 2003, 03:57

Terry Beaver

I've used 12.8 grains of Lil Gun behind a 40-grain Hornady V-Max in my Hornet. Shoots tight groups with no signs of excessive pressure.

That load works well in my H&R/NEF Handi-Gun, but it's always best to start low and work up a few tenths of a grain at a time.

15 October 2003, 04:11

<North of 60>

13 grains is listed with a 45 Hornady at 31,600 CUP on the Hodgdon web-site.

15 October 2003, 05:47

Hobie

Got the link to that? I don't believe it is listed in the "Annual Manual". I'll go look that up and get back to this...

*************************************************

Well, I've never been one who's not able to admit when he's wrong... The Annual Manual shows 13 gr. Lil'Gun with the 45 gr. Hornady SP at 31,600 CUP. Heck they use 13 gr. all the way up to the 50 gr. Sierra SP.

I'd be of the opinion that you have some other factor working here (I doubt that it is high temps). I personally don't believe that it varies much lot-to-lot as I've used several lots and get identical performance. I thought it was a bit more repeatable than H110/W296.

[ 10-14-2003, 21:02: Message edited by: Hobie ]

15 October 2003, 06:16

hornetguy

I've gotten my top velocities in my K-Hornet with Lil Gun. I have also noticed a tendency toward erratic pressure indications. If you use small rifle primers, the "erratic-ness" seems to go away. I have heard some say that you can't get enough Lil Gun in a hornet case to cause excessive pressure.... I say each gun is a law unto itself...start below max and work up. I have achieved 3200fps with a 40gr bullet in my K-Hornet, but that is really faster than I want. I'm still working on a slower load, more in the 3000fps range.... AA1680 is a GREAT powder for this application, but wont' reach the same velocities Lil Gun will...

15 October 2003, 06:37

Hobie

hornetguy,

My gun is a standard Hornet in a Contender barrel (21" factory) and I use small pistol primers. I also use the powder in .218 Bee and .41 Mag. I'm just not seeing erratic behavior, not even variations in performance between lots.

Each gun is a law unto itself, that's why you've got to work up.

15 October 2003, 09:56

<North of 60>

Hobie: fair enough I got lulled into a sense of compalcency by:
1) the loads listed at Coyote Gods and claims that you can't get enough Lil Gun in the case to create high pressure
2) the low listed pressure of Lil Gun listed by Hodgdon.

12.5 grains of Lil Gun gives max pressures with my M6 Hornet and 35 grain Hornady VMax's
10.2 grains of Lil Gun give factory equivelant pressures with 45 coated X bullets.
this powder does give excess pressure with listed loads in my rifle.

Pressure mesuerd by measuring case expansion.

15 October 2003, 10:11

RJS

http://www.nookhill.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=009721

15 October 2003, 10:17

<Patrick_D>

I use 13gr behind a 35 grain vmax in a BRNO .22 hornet. Velocities in the region of 3250fps, and no visible signs of excessive pressure, although I have not yet used a micrometer to confirm this. Accuracy is good too.

The stubby little vmax is a good shape for use in the hornet, where COL/magazine size can be a limiting factor.

Depending on the case manufacturer, you could have difficulty getting that much powder in! (I am using Remington brass)

Patrick

15 October 2003, 11:20

David Atherton

There was a recalled lot of Lil Gun. Might want to check it out. Erratic pressures... Lot #103080221 I believe. Go to the Hodgen web sight. It should still be listed there. I have found 13gr. superior in accuracy and velocity. No pressure signs.

[ 10-15-2003, 02:27: Message edited by: David Atherton ]

16 October 2003, 00:09

grandpao

quote:
Originally posted by North of 60:
13 grains is listed with a 45 Hornady at 31,600 CUP on the Hodgdon web-site.

yes it is but that is the maximum load you are suppose to reduce these loads by 10% and work up
from there.which would make the starting load at
11.7 grs.

16 October 2003, 02:10

Mulerider

The 13.0 gr max load, when pressure is 31,600 CUP, is a capacity issue. Even the Hornet has normal max pressures around 40k CUP. If you trust the load data, this "max" is easily safe. I've found the cases are the limiting factor in Hornet loads; if you want long case life, load conservative. If you want typical max loads, be prepared to do some trimming or discarding of cases after 2-3 loads.
Others have also noted cases capacity varies; Rem cases easily hold more powder than Win, but the Win seems to last a bit longer. Norma cases are the best I've seen, when you can find them.

16 October 2003, 07:22

Hobie

Mulerider,

I suppose I give too much credit to the various posters. What you've said is absolutely true, but, I'd have thought that the various posters knew that. Shame on me. I suppose that they (posters to these forums) are all as dumb as rocks.

North of 60 apparently went up to 13 gr. of Lil'Gun and when he got sticking cases assumed that was the fault of erratic powder. In that he is wrong. Different guns, different conditions, etc. make for different results. If he didn't know that when we started, I think he does now.

For the record, I use 13 gr. Lil'Gun with the 35 gr. VMAX in my Hornet and do see a difference both between the Rem. and Win. cases and in how they perform with this powder (and with H110/W296). I also use 14 gr. Lil'Gun with the 40 gr. VMAX in the .218 Bee but only use Winchester cases. In these two cartridges I set things off with CCI small pistol primers. I also use 22.5 gr. of the powder in the .41 Mag with the 210 gr. Hornady XTP for over 1800 fps from my 16ï¿½" barrel. I worked up to these load levels, I did check the recall, and no I never had that lot of powder. I do not now, nor have I ever noticed erratic behavior on the part of this powder.

16 October 2003, 16:08

Mulerider

Hobie said "I suppose I give too much credit to the various posters. What you've said is absolutely true, but, I'd have thought that the various posters knew that. Shame on me. I suppose that they (posters to these forums) are all as dumb as rocks."

Dang, Hobie, that's a bit rough....
Me, I try to learn more here, than give out info.
Usually works that way.

17 October 2003, 01:36

Hobie

Mulerider,

How is that rough? Perhaps, just maybe, I did get a bit peeved that you think that the other guys are dumb, that's NOT how I think. However, I could be wrong...

Now, I imagine I've ticked them off! [Wink]

Oh, I didn't mention that I will never use Small Pistol Primers with H110/W296. It does not work in my rifle. [Roll Eyes]

It does work well with Lil'Gun, in my rifle.