Crimp Dies

01 August 2003, 13:22

dzrtram

Crimp Dies

I just joined recently. Hope this is on topic.
This is a response I recieved about a question I asked on the Lee Factory Crimp Die on another site. I would like to have some opinions, if you don't mind.
"On the crimp dies, I have loaded and fired somewhere in the area of 750,000 rounds in my 30+years of reloading and competitions. I have shot several competition disciplines on the national and world levels before retiring years ago. I have never crimped a rifle round in my life nor do I know of anyone who does in my circles. Point of question, ask Tony Boyer if he uses a Crimp die on his match loads? I think not! This includes countless thousands of .223 and .308's in my AR's and M1A's. My thoughts here are doing anything out of the ordinary to squeeze or damage a seated bullet is death to accuracy. I did use a taper crimp die on my .45 acp and 38 Super handgun competition rounds but these are different bullet designs, chambers, and pin point accuracy was not necessary. However, we are talking a different ballgame between the accuracy levels needed for hunting and competitions. However, I want all the accuracy I can get in both!!"
I am [Confused]

01 August 2003, 15:04

Pecos41

DZR - To crimp or not to crimp is pretty much a personal preference thing. The facts are you can probably load forever, not crimp anything, and never have a problem.

Is crimping an asset to reloaded ammunition? You can find people who will swear both ways. And you can find evidence to support both positions!

It's just pretty much an "ify" subject. IMPROPERLY DONE it can even be dangerous or cause problems!

What I can tell you is IMHO the Lee factory crimp dies are the safest and best way to crimp, if you want to crimp.

For a beginning reloader, I don't know that I would worry about it much, unless you have a cartridge that simply demands it.

01 August 2003, 15:54

dzrtram

Thank you, I should have explained that the original question was concerning .22 Hornet.

quote:
Originally posted by Pecos45:
DZR - To crimp or not to crimp is pretty much a personal preference thing. The facts are you can probably load forever, not crimp anything, and never have a problem.

Is crimping an asset to reloaded ammunition? You can find people who will swear both ways. And you can find evidence to support both positions!

It's just pretty much an "ify" subject. IMPROPERLY DONE it can even be dangerous or cause problems!

What I can tell you is IMHO the Lee factory crimp dies are the safest and best way to crimp, if you want to crimp.

For a beginning reloader, I don't know that I would worry about it much, unless you have a cartridge that simply demands it.

02 August 2003, 05:18

<stans>

Personally, I think crimping is not required for rifle rounds with the possible exceptions of tubular magazines and possibly semi-automatics. Taper crimping is necessary in semi-auto pistols and a roll crimp is a must with heavy recoiling revolver rounds. I have found that light target revolver rounds do benefit from a light roll crimp.

02 August 2003, 05:26

LE270

Crimping isn't really necessary in most instances, but I recommend that you go to the FAQ section of accuratereloading and then scroll down until you come to the file on the effects of crimping on accuracy and velocity. Saeed did tests on a .223, .243, and .308, using the Lee Factory Crimp Dies and, in every instance, bullets without a cannelure. His results suggest a small but measurable increase in accuracy -- he says it was about 10%. Your results may vary. But in my opinion it's worth trying.

[ 08-01-2003, 20:41: Message edited by: LE270 ]

02 August 2003, 14:37

jstevens

I don't crimp anything but my .30-30 loads and .375 H&H and bigger. The recoil in a .458 or .416 Rigby will slam some of the bullets back into the case if you don't at least reduce the size of the expander ball in the die to be sure it's real tight. Probably you don't fire too many .416 rounds in competition or .475 Linebaugh, .44 Mag revolver rounds either. There isn't any reason to crimp a .30-06 or 7mm Mag, but there are some that should be crimped and the Lee die works best for me. The big revolver rounds do the opposite, bullets slide out of the case and lock up the cylinder, a real pain.

02 August 2003, 15:13

Pecos41

Dzrt, I've had a hornet and a K Hornet and never crimped either. Also this little case is very thin and fragile. The less you do with it, the better your case life will be. I would suggest you NOT crimp unless you run into a direct need to do so.

Proper crimping can be of benefit, but it's very easy to do more harm than good with IMPROPPERLY crimped bullets.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

02 August 2003, 15:39

dzrtram

Pecos (anyone), somebody told me to use the Lyman M die when loading the .22 Hornet. It's supposed to help with the problems you have
mentioned. Do you know anything about that?
I don't [Embarrassed]

quote:
Originally posted by Pecos45:
Dzrt, I've had a hornet and a K Hornet and never crimped either. Also this little case is very thin and fragile. The less you do with it, the better your case life will be. I would suggest you NOT crimp unless you run into a direct need to do so.

Proper crimping can be of benefit, but it's very easy to do more harm than good with IMPROPPERLY crimped bullets.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

02 August 2003, 15:50

dzrtram

aaahhh, yes, the .30-30. Hardest one to load that I have experienced so far. I have a Dillon 550, and Dillon dies for the .30-30. I could not get the seating die(?) to work (I think it was. It's been a long time.) It kept crushing the brass. Hornady has a replacement die they say will cure that. So, I bought the Hornady, and sure as a dog has fleas, the Hornady produced a nice round. I just used the one Hornady die, and the rest were Dillon. I forget all the details. [Embarrassed]

I haven't loaded .30-30 in about five years, so it may be another die.
Did you ever have any trouble like this with the .30-30? If you understand what I'm talking about, do you think you could expain it to me. You can email me at dzrtram@yahoo.com, if you prefer. [Confused]

quote:
Originally posted by jstevens:
I don't crimp anything but my .30-30 loads and .375 H&H and bigger. The recoil in a .458 or .416 Rigby will slam some of the bullets back into the case if you don't at least reduce the size of the expander ball in the die to be sure it's real tight. Probably you don't fire too many .416 rounds in competition or .475 Linebaugh, .44 Mag revolver rounds either. There isn't any reason to crimp a .30-06 or 7mm Mag, but there are some that should be crimped and the Lee die works best for me. The big revolver rounds do the opposite, bullets slide out of the case and lock up the cylinder, a real pain.

02 August 2003, 16:35

B17G

If you want to crimp, the easiest die to do so on the market to me is the Lee Crimp die. For less than $9.00 it is very easy.

I use it on 30/30 cases, 444 Marlin and occasionally on 7 x 57, but because that particular rifle shoots better with them crimped. ( Don't ask why, just does what makes it shoot the best).

Must be the fancy Dillon press that makes a 30/30 hard to load. On a RCBS Rockchucker, I love loading the 30/30. It is a simple case to work with.

02 August 2003, 18:00

dzrtram

I don't think it's the press, it's the die. I wish I could explain it, but it's been years. However, my curiosity is up, so I'm going to go back and explore the problem.
Does one Lee Factory Crimp die do all those calibers. I see them listed for each caliber, but yours is the second post that makes it sound like "one fits all". How can that be? [Confused]

quote:
Originally posted by seafire:
If you want to crimp, the easiest die to do so on the market to me is the Lee Crimp die. For less than $9.00 it is very easy.

I use it on 30/30 cases, 444 Marlin and occasionally on 7 x 57, but because that particular rifle shoots better with them crimped. ( Don't ask why, just does what makes it shoot the best).

Must be the fancy Dillon press that makes a 30/30 hard to load. On a RCBS Rockchucker, I love loading the 30/30. It is a simple case to work with.

02 August 2003, 18:10

Pecos41

Dzrt - No, the Lee factory crimp die is cartridge specific. You must have one for each different cartridge...and there are a lot of cartridges they do not make a crimp die for.

03 August 2003, 01:25

jstevens

I have a Hornady .30-30 die and no problems or anything unusual loading for it. As a matter of fact, I just started loading for it, the Model 94 shot about 4" groups with factory loads and a peep sight. this didn't get me too excited, but a couple of weeks ago I loaded some 170 Hornadys with 33 gr RL15, shot three 3-shot went about 1 1/2" at 100 yards.

03 August 2003, 03:07

dzrtram

It was the Dillon die that didn't work. The Hornady is made differently, it cured my problem.

quote:
Originally posted by jstevens:
I have a Hornady .30-30 die and no problems or anything unusual loading for it. As a matter of fact, I just started loading for it, the Model 94 shot about 4" groups with factory loads and a peep sight. this didn't get me too excited, but a couple of weeks ago I loaded some 170 Hornadys with 33 gr RL15, shot three 3-shot went about 1 1/2" at 100 yards.

03 August 2003, 03:18

<eldeguello>

Since all rifles are individuals, I suspect there are some that shoot better with certain loads having crimped bullets! I never crimp ammo for rifles, using neck diameter to get the tension I need to keep bullets from moving under recoil, even in .450 Alaskan, and have never had a bullet move!! I crimp ALL revolver ammo, mainly because I usuakky use slow powders in these, and crimp NO auto pistol loads! [Big Grin]

03 August 2003, 04:20

Atkinson

I only crimp big bores and that may not be necessary as the problem of set back came with culling elephants wherein a shot was fired and the hunter reloaded to be sure he always had a full magazine for an emergency and the bottom rounds did take a beating as set back, some even when crimped...Very little culling of elephants by our citizenery today...

That said, I do turn down by expander button 3 to 4 thousands, use a bulky powder to rest the bullet on and I do use a very light crimp...375 and up only...particularly with solids BTW.

As to lesser calibers than 375 I never crimp ...I do not believe that there is consistency in crimping as our case trimmers are so bloody inaccurate that the crimp is not the same from round to round...One might get consistent crimps with a file trim die or so it would seem...however I have never seen the need from a hunters standpoint...and have never had a failure on a rifle round in my lifetime of reloading...I have on pistols on a number of ocassions.

03 August 2003, 04:36

dzrtram

A good point about the case trimmers.
BTW, the last elephant I saw was pink [Wink]

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
I only crimp big bores and that may not be necessary as the problem of set back came with culling elephants wherein a shot was fired and the hunter reloaded to be sure he always had a full magazine for an emergency and the bottom rounds did take a beating as set back, some even when crimped...Very little culling of elephants by our citizenery today...

That said, I do turn down by expander button 3 to 4 thousands, use a bulky powder to rest the bullet on and I do use a very light crimp...375 and up only...particularly with solids BTW.

As to lesser calibers than 375 I never crimp ...I do not believe that there is consistency in crimping as our case trimmers are so bloody inaccurate that the crimp is not the same from round to round...One might get consistent crimps with a file trim die or so it would seem...however I have never seen the need from a hunters standpoint...and have never had a failure on a rifle round in my lifetime of reloading...I have on pistols on a number of ocassions.

03 August 2003, 13:01

rupert

re the topic of crimping for the Hornet. Go to www.saubier.com and find the topic examined in detail.

03 August 2003, 15:33

dzrtram

Thanks, Rupert. I saw the answers from Daryl. I looked, but didn't see much more.

quote:
Originally posted by rupert:
re the topic of crimping for the Hornet. Go to www.saubier.com and find the topic examined in detail.

04 August 2003, 03:35

Wstrnhuntr

I just paid a visit to the new Speer webbsite and they addressed the Lee crimp on THEIR bullet issue. They suggest that crimping only be done on bullets with cannelures and add that their tests show a loss of accuracy on crimped bullets without cannelures FWIW.

http://www.speer-bullets.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=2&s2=25&pg=11

04 August 2003, 05:24

dzrtram

Pecos, can you tell me something about the K Hornet? Is it fire formed the Ackleys? I've been wondering about that.
Thanks

quote:
Originally posted by Pecos45:
Dzrt, I've had a hornet and a K Hornet and never crimped either. Also this little case is very thin and fragile. The less you do with it, the better your case life will be. I would suggest you NOT crimp unless you run into a direct need to do so.

Proper crimping can be of benefit, but it's very easy to do more harm than good with IMPROPPERLY crimped bullets.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

04 August 2003, 05:31

dzrtram

Thank you VERY much!! I'm good with that. Pretty much closes the subject...."only crimp with cannelured bullets" was my first clue on what to crimp, and what not to crimp [Wink]

quote:
Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
I just paid a visit to the new Speer webbsite and they addressed the Lee crimp on THEIR bullet issue. They suggest that crimping only be done on bullets with cannelures and add that their tests show a loss of accuracy on crimped bullets without cannelures FWIW.

http://www.speer-bullets.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=2&s2=25&pg=11

04 August 2003, 07:06

downwindtracker2

The boys at this site did a test with the Lee Factory Crimp,it puts lie to Speers claims.Read the test in the articles.

04 August 2003, 07:41

Atkinson

All tests have different results, ever notice that...My suggestion is do your own tests with each rifle and you will find the rifle determines the results....

Does Lee make a tapered crimp for the big bores like 375, 416 404 thats where they are needed, but I find no information on those calibers.

04 August 2003, 09:00

dzrtram

Yes, it seems you can find a test to back up whatever opinion you have.

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
All tests have different results, ever notice that...My suggestion is do your own tests with each rifle and you will find the rifle determines the results....

Does Lee make a tapered crimp for the big bores like 375, 416 404 thats where they are needed, but I find no information on those calibers.