When is a press worn out?

21 November 2001, 05:37

<ringneck>

I managed to buy the press that I learned to reload on. It is an old herters model 3 that belonged to a gunsmith friend of mine who passed away. It has loaded a bunch of ammo. The ram was very loose when I got it. I found another press that was used very little and swapped the ram and linkage. This cut down the runout a lot. With a dial indicator the runout on the ram at the top measures .022 front to back and .017 side to side play. This is more than my rockchucker. I want to use this press for sentimental reasons but I wondered if it has too much slop in it to allow for accurate reloading. I would appreciate any thoughts.

Shawn

21 November 2001, 06:10

<Sparticus>

Say, are you a machinist? You could build one. I did for my Herters O-frame model(I don't know the model type). It has served me for 14 years. I just wish they wouldn't have went out of business. Mark

21 November 2001, 07:19

<Eric>

ringneck,

This is only my opinion, but I think your press "is done". It has way too much play in the parts for accurate reloading. However, if you really, really want to use it, there are options.

1. Make a new ram. If you do this you should have the press frame honed to make sure the bore is round and centered on the die bore.

2. Have the press bore made bigger and bushed to fit the ram. Of course the ram needs to be checked for straightness and size.

3. You can also have either the ram or the press bore knurled and ground to size.

All expensive solutions unless you have the machinery yourself, or access to a shop.

I understand the sentimental part, but I'd suggest buying a new one and keep the Herters for just crimping or punching out old primers. Good luck.

------------------
Surely we must all hang together, for separately we will all surely hang.

21 November 2001, 07:26

<Martindog>

Along these lines, I would like to know why it is so desirable to have minimal play in the ram to begin with. I would think some play would be beneficial since it would allow the ram/shellholder to center the case in the die. Unless the ram is in perfect alignment with the die, reducing the play would seem to be detrimental. Also, some of the most accurate ammunition is loaded with hand dies and an arbor press or a small mallet -- there's no way you can convince me that that is a mechanically tight setup. I would think that the quality of the die ends up dictating how concentric the case ends up being, not how straight it was when started into the die. What am I missing here?

Martindog

21 November 2001, 08:51

Stonecreek

I tend to agree with Martindog. The usual lack of concentricity of the dies' threads will likely exceed the run-out of your ram, and the "play" in the ram will help offset that mis-alignment.

Load some shells and see how it does.

21 November 2001, 12:59

<ringneck>

I'm not a machinist so the cost of a newly machined ram is not an option. I also wondered if the play in the ram would act kind of like a floating reamer holder does when chambering a barrel ????? Guiding the case into the die instead of forcing it if everything isn't lined up.

Shawn

21 November 2001, 15:30

Bill Leeper

My feeling is that a press would be worn out when the threads would no longer hold a die or perhaps when the handle falls off! I use a 1971 RCBS JR press for most of my loading. I've worn out several barrels but the press still seems fine. Maybe the "floating ram" theory has some validity. Regards, Bill.

21 November 2001, 16:11

JerryO

quote:
Originally posted by Martindog:
Along these lines, I would like to know why it is so desirable to have minimal play in the ram to begin with. What am I missing here?
Martindog

My opinion: Some dies depend on the ram (shellholder) to hold the case head in line with the die. Such as most seating dies. My hornady dies in particular.

Some dies align the case in a sleeve for seating the bullet and shouldn't be sensitive to play in the ram. ie. Redding competition seating dies.

Also, a excessively loose ram may allow the depriming pin to miss the flash hole.

JerryO

21 November 2001, 17:51

<Martindog>

quote:
Originally posted by JerryO:
My opinion: Some dies depend on the ram (shellholder) to hold the case head in line with the die. Such as most seating dies. My hornady dies in particular.
Some dies align the case in a sleeve for seating the bullet and shouldn't be sensitive to play in the ram. ie. Redding competition seating dies.

Thanx for the response. I sort of understand what you are saying, but your example confuses me a bit. Both the Hornady and Redding seaters use sleeves to support cartridges as bullets are seated -- Hornady's supports only the neck while Redding's supports both the neck and the body. Why then would Hornady's seater be more reliant on ram alignment while Redding's would be more forgiving? Do you have an old style seater that doesn't use the sleeve?

Regardless, it still seems that a little bit of sideways play would allow the ram and shellholder to naturally find the die's center. The worst case would be perfect support with no slop whatsoever, but a ram which wasn't aligned with the die's base. Then as the shellholder got closer to the die, the angular misalignment would rear its ugly head.

Martindog

21 November 2001, 18:53

Vibe

Ok You want to keep using the press, without quite as much play possibly, but without having to have it refurbished professionally.

While I'm not an expert on the Herters press, looking at my RS-5 it seems that it would be fairly simple to drill and tap 4 holes square into the press' ram guide bore area, install 4 brass screws, and presto, sliding "steady rest". You could adjust to the amount of play you were comfortable with, or dial a set up in to rock solid inline with a particular dies set up.

But that's just a first impression.

22 November 2001, 01:00

1894

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Can i suggest a comparative test eg 2 batches of loads known to be accurate with the only difference being that they were assembled (ie sized and seated) on the 2 different presses. First check the run out of the loades rounds and then accuracy test. If you do let us know.

22 November 2001, 12:02

Atkinson

I'd venture to say that no-one on this board will ever wear a press out, I hav't and don't know anyone who has...It had play in it when it was new...you must have a little slop in everything else it won't work....

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

23 November 2001, 15:43

JerryO

quote:
Originally posted by Martindog:
Both the Hornady and Redding seaters use sleeves to support cartridges as bullets are seated -- Hornady's supports only the neck while Redding's supports both the neck and the body. Why then would Hornady's seater be more reliant on ram alignment while Redding's would be more forgiving? Martindog

I don't have redding dies, so I sorta/haveto believe their support of the case aligns the case with the bullet. I have looked at forester dies with the slideing sleeve and thought the sleeves were loose in their bore. Perhaps that is why they were in cabelas bargin cave.

I do however have a set on hornady dies with the neck sleeve. Since the neck sleeve has to be loose on the case neck to accomadate various brass thicknesses, it can't control the angle of the brass to the bullet (ie, it does not support the case neck !!! ). However, a circle of music wire soldered inside the bottom of the die is fit just barely tight (on my neck sized dies). I did check runout with my rcbs case alignment measureing tool and did find a big difference with the ring in the bottom of the die, but have no numbers written down to quote (sorry).

I should note that I was using a lee C-press when reloading with these dies. This press had resized about 15,000 9mm and 5,000 .223 cases and had considerable slop from front to back (which I have since reduced by way of shims in the bore, ie epoxy and coke cans). So why did I (do I) use this press? Because the action is so light and quick it is just delightful for light to modest duty. It also has an excellent system to handle (contain) the old primers which is something that can't be said for the rockchucker.

JerryO

24 November 2001, 17:52

<ppromxman>

ringneck...

For what it is worth, cleaning and lubricating the press ram will go along way to preserve the life i.e. tolerances of a press, if your goal is to keep the ram to frame tolerances as tight as possible. It would also stand to reason, that deflection of the ram (due to greater tolerances) as the cartridge starts into a sizing die, for example, cannot be condusive to good die/cartridge alignment. Assuming the ram is bored straight to begin with, tighter is better.

I have had good luck with some heavy lubricants that stick tightly to the ram and have even used some of the lubricants designed for motorcycle chains, which will not run or move much. These lubricants often have moly added and I can see a difference in wear as compared to other lubricants like the oils. I load ALOT so experimenting with ram lubes makes sense to me.

kind regards

Paul Prochko