Target Shooting Or Is That Hunting?

28 January 2002, 18:28

<MAKATAK>

Rogerinneb. Did you ever see anyone who asked a question who didn't already have their answer ready and waiting?

It really looks like defending a position to me. We all hunt, wild game or wilder game, and we all want to win, that is, hit what we aim at, and we all use the same reasons for doing it or to condem what we think isn't right. If you really look at it, you can use just about the same argument for doing some thing and for not doing something, ANYTHING. politicians do it to us all the time.

I'm very thankfull I can hunt at all. The gun grabbers keep taking away our rights.

If I want to take a 2000 yard shot with a rifle or a 20 yard shot with a bow and call it hunting OR target practic that is my right and I don't make excuses to anyone or give reasons why or why not. It's not your concern nor any of your business.

That being said, if you have the capabilities and the rifle to make a clean kill, THEN DO IT. If you don't fit the bill, then don't be a butcher, there are fewer and fewer animals and more and more hunters every year. I get tired of seeing dead deer and other animals that hunters have left to die a slow death because they can't hit their asses with a pickup seat. That goes for the bow hunters also. Every year I find 2 or 3 deer with arrows sticking out of their bodies and the only thing good about it is the coyotes I kill gnawing on the carcasses and the free antlers.

29 January 2002, 10:33

<BigBores>

I realise the original thread starter was just trying to set up the posters, and that's a shame. I was not trying to ambush anyone however. I was hoping to hear from the real long distance guys about how they hunt, with specifics. As I said I don't know anything about the 2000yd 60 lb rifle hunters and am curious as to how such a hunt unfolds itself. I am dispointed that no one would actually describe the hunting to me. I guess I understand that they might feel they were being set up (?) and not want to expose themselves to abuse, but in my case, that was not going to happen. Still curious, and wondering if I start a new thread titled "How do the 2Kyd hunters do it?" or something such like, would anyone who actually does hunt that way respond? I'm not interested in watching another pissing contest unfold like the matchking one, I just want to know about that kind of hunting?

Well, how about it guys?

Maybe if I state: "Attn, check your urine launchers at the door". Aka, no pissing contests allowed??

29 January 2002, 10:51

<txhunter>

Go to www.longrangehunting.com and ask away.

30 January 2002, 13:32

<BigBores>

Well, I went there and went through the rather draconian registration...how bad is the censorship there? The registration "process" has left a bad taste in my mouth. I will give it a try before I condemn it though.

It's too bad such guys don't feel comfortable discussing this topic on this forum, I thought the idea was we could talk about anything here...I kind of like the atmosphere here most of the time, but I don't like the treatment about this subject, it's ok to have an opinion, but I think sometimes poeple can go overboard...

Just some random thoughts on the subject, pay them no heed.

30 January 2002, 14:11

<Boyd Heaton>

BB.If you go there and ask the ? HOW'S IT REALLY DONE?It will be answered by some of the best Long range HUNTER'S in the country.If you go over there to flame you will be gotten rid of in a hurry.

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I HUNT LONG RANGE.AND YES I USE MATCHKING'S.

30 January 2002, 17:06

<BigBores>

Well my post is there on the 2k forum, basically I was told to just read the back posts as it's all been done before, I haven't flamed anyone, just wasn't ready for the "riot act" on registration.

30 January 2002, 19:10

<txhunter>

I think as long as you don't ask the ethics question (reply will be "thats a valid question but the wrong forum to ask it" and don't flame) you'll be fine.
Just asking "how's it done" will get the typical answer, that you described, but if you get specific (tell em what your thinking of doing and ask for opinions or assistance) and the replys will be start rolling in.

04 February 2002, 08:57

<Len Backus>

BigBores

I am the owner of the www.LongRangeHunting.com forum site. I am very pleased to meet you. I have been out of the country for a week or so hunting Coues deer in Mexico and I am just now catching up with the posts on this very fine Accurate Reloading forum. I like the tone of your questions and the sincere approach in your quest for knowledge about LRH. While I am not a 2k hunter, we certainly have some fine examples of them as members on our site.

I am glad you registered as a member on our site. Actually, it is possible to just browse existing posts without going through the ï¿½draconianï¿½ process of becoming a member eligible for posting your own questions. But---let me tell you why we post rules on the registration page. I just checked my computer files and found that the date was 12/2/97 (4 years ago) when I posted ï¿½Whitetail buck at 459 yardsï¿½ on the rec-hunting newsgroup. Boy, does anyone here even remember the term ï¿½newsgroupï¿½?

Anyway, I was then just a budding long range hunter who was looking for someone with which to discuss my new passion. Well, I got hammered by nay-sayers! It took all the fun right out of my post. Sometime later I saw Dave Kingï¿½s post on his 900 yard elk---may have been on Huntinfo. I donï¿½t recall. Same problem for him. Just got hammered! I frequented Huntamerica quite a bit after that and tried to discuss LRH there and had problems again. Finally, I posted the question ï¿½who would like to form a very small email discussion group to discuss LRH away from nay-sayers?ï¿½ The administrators at Huntamerica saw my post and generously offered instead to start a LR section as part of their forum. I thought we finally had a sanctuary! Wrong again after only about a month.

So---I started my own site called www.LongRangeHunting.com back in May of 2001. I make it very clear that anyone can become a member but that this new site would be the only known sanctuary in the world of the internet for LRH discussions and therefore there are a few basic rules about what can be posted. There are many places on the internet where people can argue about, criticize or otherwise disparage LRH. I didnï¿½t think our site had to duplicate what was already available out there. If you want to learn---or share---ï¿½how to LRHï¿½, you are welcome. If you want to question ethics, question stated skill levels of another member, or just plain be a jerk---you canï¿½t remain a member. Ethics are very important to serious LRHï¿½s, we just donï¿½t find it to be productive or necessary to discuss it on our forum.

So, anyway, BigBore---welcome. And by the way, when you asked your first question on LRH about ï¿½How is it doneï¿½, Darryl suggested you first search our existing posts for the tons of info thatï¿½s already laboriously and generously been posted there. If you do that first and then ask a pointed follow-up question I think you will receive a very high quality and generous answer. I post on quite a few non-hunting forums, too, and I find quite often on those forums that a newcomerï¿½s first question will be handled in the same way.

I mentioned above my trip to Mexico. Well, I killed a Coues deer buck with one shot at 660 yards with a Matchking. It was my first such hunt. I recommend it to any serious deer hunter. Pusch Ridge Outfitters --- Kirk Kelso.

[This message has been edited by Len Backus (edited 02-04-2002).]

04 February 2002, 16:42

rogerinneb

I've been reading and WWW'ing for about ten years on the topic of shooting for accuracy. I can say that the support and expertise from the longrangehunting crew is among the best I've read. Simply put, people who can shoot accurately at the ranges discussed, paper or game, are by definition some of the best shooters and hand loaders around.

As a relative newcomer to the site, I've been welcomed and received tremendous support and advice.

This does nothing to diminish this forum as well. I compliment Saeed and those who post here. I am always impressed with the knowledge base and expertise on these forums as well, especially the reloading and gusmithing forums (real gunsmiths read and write there, ya' know!).

Oh, and one more thing. I didn't give the registration process on longrangehunting.com a second thought.

Roger

P.S. Man, I can't wait till deer season to try those MK's at 686 yards!

04 February 2002, 17:07

TomP

>>I have lots of troubled visions in my head of guys driving down a road to some sort of overlook, pulling this shooting bench (? someone has to describe these benches to me), this 60 pound rifle, telescope looking spotting scope, and spending-what 15-20 minutes setting the whole thing up? <<

There is a spot in North Carolina which is just as you describe. The regulars go there in the summertime and shoot rocks, to get the distances down. It is altogether too well known already, and some people shoot there who should not.

Tom

04 February 2002, 19:56

Norseman

Predator Master, I have a problem with seeing elk running around with arrow's sticking out of their body during rifle elk season. The bowhunting season had ended 6 weeks prior to the opening of rifle elk season. As far I'm concerned, shooting elk with arrow's is TARGET SHOOTING.
There been alot times when I go scouting for elk prior to rifle elk hunt, I would find dead deer & elk where the coyotes had already eaten and right next to the carcass are arrow's. I quit bowhunting elk because I thought it was inhumane. I had witness (two) people where they had shot a cow elk in the heart/lung area at less then 20 yard's at the same 2 or 3 seconds! and the next thing I know we were chasing the cow all over the mountains and we never did find it.
Also it is very common for Oregon department of fish & wildlife employee's to go out and kill deer & elk
in winter ranges or refuges because they don't want the public to see arrow's sticking out of their body and also for humane reasons as well. Shooting elk at 500 yard's + is way more deadly then shooting a arrow at 10 yards.

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05 February 2002, 07:17

<BigBores>

I posted on LRH but not here, I did read Dan Lilja's article on his website about long range hunting, that helped a lot, and I got a basic understanding of how it's done and got to see some of the equipment, thanks for the emails and replies on LRH forum.

PS - I did get to see a shooting table, not what I was imagining at all,

05 February 2002, 11:10

<Predator Master>

For every bad rifle shooter there is a bad bow hunter! I agree but for every arrow in a deer there are three time the bullets left in deer and elk you don't see due to the sheer numbers of rifle vs. bow hunters. The real diffrence "Big Bore" is the words you spoke of Hunter vs. Shooter! Plain and simple fact you shoot I hunt! When you get done "Shooting" you 434 lazer range found live target does your buddy next to you say "Het Big Bore Great Shot!" or does he say "What a Hunt! I thought so!

05 February 2002, 12:05

<bigcountry>

WOW, three times the bullets!!! as arrows. I guess, we can call you Dr. Preditor Master, natural bioligist/DNR who has done all kinds of research on the subject with some available whitepaper or info for us to read. And with years of research with a control group deer with all tagged with radio collars and the same in a gun only control group. That must be some impressive data you have to form your conclution. Only problem Dr, is you are on a site where accuracy and long range is the general discussion via handloading. So it appears you are just wanting to get a rise out people. I could be wrong.

[This message has been edited by bigcountry (edited 02-05-2002).]

05 February 2002, 13:06

R-WEST

BigBores -
I just registered at the LRH site. It wasn't THAT bad, although I did think the request for a DNA sample was stretching it a bit.

R-WEST

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"it is up to God to judge these terrorists; it is up to us to arrange their meeting" Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf

05 February 2002, 13:52

grizz

R-west, me too, got tired of the anti hunting stance of Predator Master. At least we don't have to put of with useless rhetoric from PM. He wouldn't last 2 posts over there!

I plan to spend a lot of time at long range hunting.com, learning and improving my skills. Only problem is, this could get real expensive!

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if you run, you just die tired

05 February 2002, 14:31

<Boyd Heaton>

Grizz.Yes it cost's alot of money.I have not been doing it for very long.And if my wife knew half the money I've spent she would kill me.Long Range hunting is not for everyone.I am sitting here looking at my short range gun.(Under 700 yard's).And I know I could have bought at least 3 normal gun's for the cost of that one.But that's what it take's to do the job right.Let me tell you one thing.The first time you take a Deer or a Bear or an Elk at 700 or 800 yard's you will be hooked.A good friend of mine made a Long Range hunting video this year that was released a few day's ago at the outdoor show in Harrisburg Pa.It has a warning on the cover that say's.(WARNING.LONG RANGE HUNTING CAN BE VERY ADDICTIVE.)I know I'm hooked.

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I HUNT LONG RANGE.AND YES I USE MATCHKING'S.

05 February 2002, 14:56

R-WEST

griz -

I'm really intrigued by some of the LR Hunting stories over there. Either that's the biggest bunch of liars on the planet, or, their shooting is just on a different plane than ours is (I vote for the latter). Darryl Cassel talks about killing an elk at 2100 yards, and another guy did one at 2890. Over a mile and a half. INCREDIBLE!!!

Just like us, PM's entitled to his opinions. While we may not always agree, free discourse at least keeps the brain cells working. If my hunting involves intentionally looking for an animal at 1000 yards or more, and yours involves sneaking up close and strangling them, by whose definition is either of us hunting or not?
What some of us consider hunting is not always what the other might, but, that doesn't mean either is right or wrong. That's why some guys prefer Remingtons and others like Winchesters, I guess.

Williamsport's only about 3 hrs away - I'm definitely going to stop by this summer at one of their 1000 yard matches.

Boyd - Do you shoot at the Williamsport matches or are you just into LR hunting?

R-WEST

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"it is up to God to judge these terrorists; it is up to us to arrange their meeting" Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf

[This message has been edited by R-WEST (edited 02-05-2002).]

05 February 2002, 15:10

<Boyd Heaton>

R-WEST.I just sent in my membership for my Wife and I.She's gonna shoot heavy gun and I am gonna shoot light gun.I have not shot there yet but I went down a couple of time's last year.Maybe we'll run in to each other.

[This message has been edited by Boyd Heaton (edited 02-05-2002).]

06 February 2002, 01:11

aladin

Zero Drift: Good post- right on.

For every fella that's competent at extreme range, there's 6 or 7 wanna be's. About the same ratio you'd find in the general hunting populace at any range.

06 February 2002, 02:23

aladin

Zero Drift: Good post- right on.

For every fella that's competent at extreme range, there's 6 or 7 wanna be's. About the same ratio you'd find in the general hunting populace at any range.

06 February 2002, 03:47

<Predator Master>

Norseman.....says "Shooting elk at 500 yard's + is way more deadly then shooting a arrow at 10 yards." I say Dead is dead is dead my friend! As for some of your other imaginative remarks well there just isn't enough room here to discuss them. You have a problem with archery and I have a problem with those who think hunting is anything 400 yards and farther is actual hunting. I think your full of crap the whole lot of ya! No hunting skill required.....none! Shooting skill "YES" hunting no! My sister could get within 400 yards of an animal if she tried. Could she make the shot? Probably not but it becomes a "Shot" at that point not a "Hunt!"

06 February 2002, 06:05

<txhunter>

Alright, where in the following definition of hunting do you see a set maximum distance?

1 a : to pursue for food or in sport <hunt buffalo> b : to manage in the search for game <hunts a pack of dogs>
2 a : to pursue with intent to capture <hunted the escapees> b : to search out : SEEK
3 : to drive or chase especially by harrying <members ... were hunted from their homes -- J. T. Adams>
4 : to traverse in search of prey <hunts the woods>

If you can find one then your eyes are alot better than mine.

1 a (1) : to eject or impel or cause to be ejected or impelled by a sudden release of tension (as of a bowstring or slingshot or by a flick of a finger) <shoot an arrow> <shoot a spitball> <shoot a marble> (2) : to drive forth or cause to be driven forth by an explosion (as of a powder charge in a firearm or of ignited fuel in a rocket) (3) : to drive forth or cause to be driven forth by a sudden release of gas or air <shoot darts from a blowgun> <a steam catapult shoots planes from a carrier> (4) : to propel (as a ball or puck) toward a goal by striking or pushing with part of the body (as the hand or foot) or with an implement; also : to score by so doing <shoot the winning goal> <shoot a basket> (5) : to throw or cast off or out often with force <shoot dice> <the horse shot his rider out of the saddle> b : to cause (as a gun or bow) to propel a missile c (1) : to utter (as words or sounds) rapidly or suddenly or with force <shoot out a stream of invective> (2) : to emit (as light, flame, or fumes) suddenly and rapidly (3) : to send forth with suddenness or intensity <shot a look of anger at them> d : to discharge, dump, or empty especially by overturning, upending, or directing into a slide
2 : to affect by shooting : as a : to strike with a missile especially from a bow or gun; especially : to wound or kill with a missile discharged from a bow or firearm b : to remove or destroy by use of firearms <shot out the light>;
4 a : to engage in (a sport or game or a portion of a game that involves shooting) : PLAY <shoot pool> <shoot a round of golf> <shoot craps> b (1) : to place or offer (a bet) on the result of casting dice <shoot $5> (2) : to use up by or as if by betting : EXHAUST <shot his annual bonus on a shady deal>

I do believe that the definition of shooting also pertains to bows and arrow too.

06 February 2002, 06:51

JBD

My favorite way to take Whitetail is with a handgun at ranges so close you singe their hair. However, I also own a .300 H&H with a custom barrel and Leupold 6.5x20x40 scope that has a custom reticle. I have made kills with that rig at what most would consider VERY long range. So it depends. I use a variety of equipment for a variety of situations - all of it I consider HUNTING. What I despair of are those who seem determined to tell the rest of us how to do it and then brand us as less than sportsmen if we don't conform to their criteria.

06 February 2002, 07:43

<conmet>

predator master, you really are a piece of
work. My sources tell me you live in a
single wide with recap tires on the roof.
They keep your "sister" tied up outside on a
leash and every time you drive by she's
licking her balls!

Have a great day there buddy!

06 February 2002, 08:39

<txhunter>

conmet

All I have to say is WOW! If that were realy true. Well I just got to see that.

06 February 2002, 10:09

beemanbeme

I think its great that the long range hunters have a room of their own. I hope it cuts down on the lack of tolerance on both sides. As for you conwy, you need to take your mouth back to the ghetto room. My sources say people like you have no place in this room or the long range room.

06 February 2002, 11:13

<Predator Master>

Hey guys I have my way of thinking and you have yours and I respect that. However please don't lower your self to the above posters comments. It doesn't do anyone any good! I enjoy archery and I like that method for big game some here don't. I think distance shots aren't quite the "Hunt" I am accustomed to. But, I respect all who post and enjoy their rebutle my views envoke. I shoot guns too! I shot my favorite one over 2000 rounds just last year! Rip me, argue with me, but don't insult me! I may not be rich monatarily but I still have feelings!

06 February 2002, 11:54

<AVMcGee>

quote:
Originally posted by Predator Master:
The real diffrence "Big Bore" is the words you spoke of Hunter vs. Shooter! Plain and simple fact you shoot I hunt! When you get done "Shooting" you 434 lazer range found live target does your buddy next to you say "Het Big Bore Great Shot!" or does he say "What a Hunt! I thought so!

I would venture to say that his friend would say both. great shot and great hunt.
Don't take my word for it, take Dean Duram's on the "TreeLounge" videos. "hey let's go hunting". and "I've had a great hunt." Before and after he shoots the deer 200+ yards.

Andrew V. McGee

06 February 2002, 18:30

Norseman

Predator Master,
where do you bowhunt in Oregon?
Can you get close to a deer or elk in the middle of a desert or perhap's the Snake river canyons?
Do you like chasing deer or elk up and down mountains & canyon's
Do you like not finding the animal you shot?
Dead is dead, but how long did the animal have to suffer for?
Animals deserve a quick humane kill.

07 February 2002, 02:53

<conmet>

Predator Master, I'm really sorry your
feelings were hurt. Your "Grapes of Wrath"
Speech just got to me! and because of that..
I'm going to send you 40 share's of Enron
stock.
With 10 shares you can give your "sister"
a higher education.
Take another 10 shares and go buy yourself
some wooden arrows at KMart.
Use another 10 to buy yourself another
2,000 BBs for your Red Ryder.
The last 10 shares, cash them in
for a long distance phone call to YOUR other
sister Bill T.
I'll also send you an authintic Indian arrow
head.

Time to wake up, Pal

07 February 2002, 12:08

<AVMcGee>

Guess what fellow "hunters"? I think I have figured out what will make us a better hunter. It seems Predator Master thinks distance is the only thing that makes one a "better hunter". So this is my idea.

When we go hunting we should limit ourselves to shots no longer than 40 yards. That is it. That is the big idea. How does it sound??? Will this make me a "better hunter"?

Predator Master,
Another thought. When you(PM) are in your treestand in a tree above the sight and smell of a deer, do you wait there all day until a deer walks under you for a shot? How can you call this hunting and then tell me I am not "really hunting" because I took a 125 yard shot. We did the same thing, only distance and weapon are different. I guess the logical assumtion would be that someone is "not really hunting" unless they hunt with a BOW like you do under 40 yards.

"I hunt big game with a bow so 40 yards is my limit and anything beyond that I feel is target shooting. Please let us all know your thoughts on this subject and why." Quoted from Predator Master's first post.

One of the mistakes of your post is to put all hunting over 40 yards in the same catagory as the Long Range Hunters. I ,for one, am not good enough to shoot as far as they...... Not yet .

You do have the right to your opinion. And that is all it is!

Andrew V. McGee