24 January 2002, 04:52
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Maybe there are several issues here, one being the definition of hunting, another being how far is it allowable to shoot an animal.
I 'hunt' in several modes, if I'm hunting for a personal trophy whitetail for example things are a fair bit different than if I'm out to fill a doe tag for meat. It's generally not an easy task to get a monster trophy so stealth and long hours scouting and other preparation is often required. One of these preparation areas is rifle/bullet and marksmanship. I have NO intention of missing a shot on a trophy animal. It does little good to be presented with an opportunity and then miss, lots of time wasted and the critter is now smarter than before.
Scenario: I'm out hunting and jump a nice trophy, it's brushy and I don't have an opportunity to shoot until he makes the mistake of stopping on a side hill some distance away, a distance that I know I can easily kill him with one shot. What should I do? I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll range the critter and then kill him, just the same as nearly any other hunter when the game stops within his/her confidence zone.
Would this be considered hunting, if not, why? If the critter ran 50 yards and stopped would it be hunting? If it ran 100 yards and stopped? How about if it ran 500 yards?
If I'm out to fill a tag for meat I take any acceptable animal that's within range whether it's 10 feet or 500 yards. Is there a problem with that?
I've taken hunters from various parts of the country out hunting with me. Many do things quite different from me, I seldom condemn them for it more often I try to understand their reasoning and the events that lead to the activity they perform. I've more than once had folks hunting with me that once a deer is jumped will helter-skelter chase the deer in an attempt to limit the distance the shot will be once the deer stops for a backward glance. I don't do this nor do I trouble these types over their methods. I prefer to either stalk the deer again or if the area is clear I wait for it to stop at a transition zone and shoot it from my original location.
The furthest I've killed big game animals is just over 900 yards, only one at this distance. I've killed several over 500 yards and many over 400 yards. I haven't lost any during these longer range shots. Is there a problem with my methods?
Most (some 90%) of game is shot within 200 yards and most of that is shot inside 100 yards. Having said that, there are some individuals that have the ability and the equipment to shoot big game at long ranges...most don't. Unless a person practices long range shooting regularly and has the firearm capable of delivering a bullet with extreme accuracy and substancial downrange energy, they have no business trying. Afterall, this is supposed to be a sport.
The one exception I make is for the hunting of those vermin called coyotes....there are no rules for them.
I keep good records, use a chronograph and do practical range days to find out just exactly where that particular load shoots at 100,200,300 and 400 yds. Then double check on the ballisitcs program to see if it matches, etc. I then take that drop data, type up a small sheet with distances to 500 or 550 yds and tape it to my rifle stock.
Now the hard part for many of you eastern or southern posters.......my hunting area is rolling prairie with really NO dense forests. Sure, we have stands of pines but none of it so thick that you can't see a decent range. My elk herds often loiter in the middle of huge irrigated hayfields. One field is almost two miles long and 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile wide in spots. So you can imagine that long shots are the norm. Antelope or muleys are seldom encountered at less than 200 or three hundred yds during the season.
I have found that careful practice, good gear and a cool head, can allow consistent enough accuracy to take deer,antelope, and especially elk (big lungs=big target) at ranges out to 300 or 350 yards with relative ease. BUT and this is the big one... the situation I enjoy and many others do not. I have a six week season. I live 6 miles from my hunting area. I CAN PASS on bad shots or bad situations such as failing light, high winds, etc. And come back another day. I can pick and choose my shots.
Long range game shots are not for everyone and I could probably hazard a guess that they are not for 90% of us. But don't condemn them out of hand. With the proper tools, technology, lots of practice and the right person behind the gun ,game can be killed at very long ranges nowadays.
The problem is IMHO.... READING about long range marksmanship, READING about bullet drop figures and READING about competant long range rifleman does not make you capable of those shots.
I guess to reply to the post.....I never consider hunting anything other than a quest to ethically outsmart and harvest an animal in a humane and quick way. I don't think of it as target shooting. Then again I am not a 500 yd game shooter either.
FN
quote:
Originally posted by Dave King:
. . . The furthest I've killed big game animals is just over 900 yards, only one at this distance. I've killed several over 500 yards and many over 400 yards. I haven't lost any during these longer range shots. Is there a problem with my methods? . . .
Only if you use Matchkings. 
The 905 yard was a elk with a Nosler Ballistic Tip.
At least one of the over 500 yard was a whitetail doe with a Nosler Ballistic Tip.
A moose at 439 was a 300 grain MatchKing.
I remember a time when people thought is was unethical to hunt with a handgun. People wouldn't allow them on their ranch, because they couldn't believe people can be accurate with a handgun, I'm sure everyone will agree that is not true.
Long range hunting is relatively young sport, but no matter what anyone says, it is still hunting. The skill involved in finding an animal at long distances and the practice it takes to humanely take game at those distances is a learned skill. It does not happen by "luck". Long range hunters practice/compete to gain a true understanding of their rifles and equipment that they use.
Why would anyone try to hammer a fellow hunter (as long as it is legal) for hunting? I don't particularly like to bow hunt, but I don't go around talking bad about the people who do it. Why must this be a continual debate over something so insignificant as someone's PERSONAL hunting style. I have never had any long range hunter try to impose his/her methods of hunting on me. Why must others try to decide what is the best hunting style for someone else?
My two cents anyway.
If you take it down to the basics, everytime you point your weapon at an intended object ( dead or alive ) with the intention of pulling the trigger with the end result of your bullet hitting that intended object.... isn't that "target shooting"? So isn't all hunting target shooting?????
Just something to think about....
I do consider myself a long range hunter. Why would a game animal not be a "target" whether at 10 yards or 1000 yards.Just because you stalk game and I sit in my stand and glass for them, is there any real difference? Are we not both hunting?
In reply to your question, if the animal is in my sights/croshairs, it is "targeted" for food on my table, from point blank to my maximum range.
I believe WyoWhisper said it. When you intend on shooting an animal do you not pick out a spot to aim at, a target. Thus every shot at game animals is target shooting.
Target Shooting Or Is That Hunting? This question was asked to get people to start fighting. Why else would anyone ask such a question?
Predator Master why do you have a problem with what other people do? I think that some people need to stop worring about others and take care of their own buisness first. I mean face it what could you possibly do to change what others do, make a law. Well smart thinking, another law to restrict the rights of gun owners.
[This message has been edited by txhunter (edited 01-24-2002).]
quote:
Originally posted by Predator Master:
I have a problem with those out there who feel that when they go hunting that anything closer than 500 yards is of no challenge to them. I ask you all this question? At what distance do you consider it "Hunting" vs "Target Shooting!?" There is a diffrence isn't there? ... Please let us all know your thoughts on this subject and why.
If I made a shot at 515yards I would consider it hunting. There are places in Ms where you have cutovers, bean fields, cotton fields, etc. The oppurtunity for a long shot is avaliable.
For example, If a deer comes out 225 yards away most would consider that hunting but if a deer comes out on the other side of the bean field at 550 yards some would tell me that I am now not hunting but target shooting or even perhaps sniping. I have only hunted in Mississippi, Texas and Alabama. So there is a lot I have not seen or been around.
If I was able to be confident and good enough to make these longer shots(500-600yds) I would consider it a blessing because the adverage person can't .
Take the 7mm Mauser and it's capabilities. A 140gr. bullet is at about 1000 ft.-lbs.energy at 400 yards.
The 7mm STW has has that much at 600 yards.
The 30-06 in 180gr has 1100 ft-lbs energy at 500yds.
The 30-378 has over twice that at 500yds.
My point is : I thought that was the reason for these over-bore capacity cartridges. Not to have more energy at 100 or 200 yards but to have more energy at longer ranges . To increase your guns potential to make a longer shot. As long as you do your part also.
Andrew V. McGee
,Sorrysheephunter
According to the American Heritage Dictionary;
HUNT verb 1. a. To pursue (game) for food or sport. b. To search (for) or to seek. 2. To search through, as for game or prey. noun 1. The act or sport of hunting.
GAME (As we are talking about) Wild animals, birds or fish hunted for food or sport. Something hunted; prey.
TARGET noun 1. An object with a marked surface that is shot at to test accuracy. Something aimed or fired at.
Seems simple.
If you pursue it for food, it is a target you hunt.
If it is an wild animal and you fire at it, it is a target you eat and have hunted.
If it is a trophy you aim at it is a sport and a target that you can eat or not.
If it is not wild, it is not hunting but it could be target shooting.
It hasn't a damn thing to do with the distance to it or what kind of weapon you use to do your hunting, sport or targeting. Distance and weaponry isn't in the definition so it isn't germane.
Now, Philosophers, how simple it becomes. Tell me, How many Angels are dancing on YOUR pin head.
What makes you think the a long range hunter can't get up close and personal. I also hunt with a bow and kill deer each year with it. I've successfully hunter deer with a handgun in the past and also hunt each season with a muzzleloader.
Being able to kill game animals at long range does not in any way mean we're less of a hunter, it just means we can shoot further if we so decide.
Honing hunting skills make a person a better, more successful hunter, one of these skills is markmanship.
There is no hunt taken out of the equation when you do it from long range. Maybe you have your definitions and hunt/stalk/killing mixed up. You live in oregon so maybe you have some idea of where I hunt in Wyo. There is a "hunt" to this long range thing. ALL the areas I hunt it would be nearly impossible or impossible to get within what you feel is respectable distance to any of the animals I hunt.
I still spend countless hours scouting the areas I hunt. I also spend as much time during the hunting season patterning the animals I am hunting. THis type of hunting is a 12 month a year hunting. I will venture to say there is more prep time in this type of hunting than most.
You like many others may want to spend some time hunting this way before you so easily dismiss it as easy and non-hunting. I have hunted they way you feel hunting should be. I have killed at 10 feet numerous times and with-in your specified "hunting" limits. I can honestly tell you I have had more of a challenge at LRH than the "typical" hunting.
I used to live in PA and spent the majority of my time archery hunting. Up close and personal was my prefered way. I've been there and done that. I too thought that maybe this LRH would be easy..... what a fool I was... there is much more to it that pick a spot and wait...
You quickly dismiss the bullet velocity, drop charts etc. as an excuse or a non factor you are way off base. That is a critical part of this and PART of the whole equation to LRH. Just like cover scent camo, broadhead weight, carbon or alluminum choices, tree stand location, feeding areas, transition areas are in archery hunting.
I am done venting for now.. I say again, don't judge a book by its cover.
I'll bet you use a compound bow and not a
recurve. That being the case you rely on
technology and not skill. That's not real
hunting its target shooting with a bow. Any
shot taken with a bow past 25 yards should
not be taken. Take that argument to the bank.
Better yet just go to the spear section and
talk about using a knife with a 4" blade.
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I am not going to debate what is considered sniping VS hunting. To me, anyone who is casually pulling the trigger at any yardage is a liability. However, the margin of error increases geometrically as yardage increases. I have taken a few self-described �long rang hunters� to our 600 yard range to test their shooting prowess. I would estimate than 9 out of 10 are embarrassed with the results. And remember, this is with exact yardage knowledge on relatively calm days. When you are faced with bullet drops over three to four feet and wind drift over three feet, many shooters are lucky to hit the target on the first three rounds.
I wonder how many long range shooters would be taking shots if they had to pay $1,000 for each missed or wounded animal. This would separate the men from the wanna-be�s. Who would be willing to take an 800 yard challenge - You pay $1,000 for any shot that fall out of a 1 foot circle target. You must shoot a minium of 5 rounds. You have 10 minutes to shoot all 5 rounds.
I believe that all of us would be more cautious with our shooting/hunting if we had to put our money on the line with each shot. I learned this from many years of hunting in Africa. As a matter of fact, I learned on my second hunt in Zim - I purchased a $1,100 gemsbuck that is not on my wall. It makes you think before you pull the trigger.
What I have a problem with is the guys that show up to hunt with me and the first thing out of their mouth is "I want to get on the highest hill and whack shit really far away". Believe it or not, as an outfitter, I hear this a lot. There are 2 things that disturb me about this:
1. The taking of a life is not a game. The animals deserve more respect than to be treated as furry 500 yard gong. If you can get closer, why the hell wouldn't you?
2. Not one of these guys has ever been a capable game shot. They cannot understand that shooting fur is a lot different than punching paper or a gong off a shooting bench. They don't know anatomy. They don't compensate for wind drift. Furthermore, they cannot estimate range well at all and refuse to accept the input from me or my rangefinder in regard to distance and hold over. Finally, when queried about the hold over on their alleged past long distance feats of marksmanship (which always took place somewhere else), these Quigly wannabes always quote a totally inaccurate holdover!
It seems to me that a lot of these people just think it sounds to cool to say they take game at extreme range so that's their new sport. They read a few articles and read the "ballistics chart" on their ammo box and they're ready to go. I know there are some really good shots out there that hunt this way very successfully, and I certainly mean no disrespect to those people. Just make sure you really are one of those people if you are going to start shooting game at long ranges.
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Greg Rodriguez
Mombasa Trading Company
www.mbogo.net
(281) 494-4151
I am a profesional guide. I too have alot of guys that want to shoot at extreme range. I too decline most requests to put them in that type of situation. THis upcoming year will be the first time I purposefully take guys on a hunt designed for Long Range. THe guys that are interested are all members of the LRH board and have proven to me they are capable of this sport. Many of them are accoplished 1000 yard shooters.
Like i said earlier. THis is a 12 month a year sport. You prepare all year long.
The skill comes when I get up close and personal with my bow and in the past with my rifle. No skill in getting within 500 yards. My lethal effective distance is 40 yards I don't click adjust for the compensated 3 1/2 feet of drop over the next 300+ yards like some. I agree those in africa that use a spear are far better hunters than you or I!
That said...
I have read some (damn it's long) of the thread on matchkings, which I assume is what spun off this thread. There are some things I wonder about. The way I see it we are lumping 2 different kinds of long range hunting together into the same classification. There is the up-to-500-or-600-yards-with-a-regular-sporting-rifle (or "beanfield rifle" if you prefer-whatever)group, and the up-to-2000-yard-and-beyond-?-60-pound-rifle-on-a-bench group.
Now I have hunted in many different environments and it seems like your environment dictates your range to some extent. I have hunted in thick forest where a 100yd shot is long, or not even possible. I have hunted open desert in S. AZ. where under 300yds is considered CLOSE! I have killed (I hate the word harvest-stupid term if you ask me) deer, once over 500yds, most have been between 100-400yds. I practice a lot, even in the off season, and I practice every year, not waiting until I get drawn to dust off the ole rifle and shoot it. I have shot elk from 20yds to 350yds, they are big targets and I use a 338 Winmag so I know when it gets there it puts em down. Did I mention I practice? So I am familiar with using sporting type rifles to maybe 5-600yds.
Here's what I don't know about and don't understand, I'm not condemning, just not understanding, it's the 60 pound rifle hunters shooting to over 2000yds from a bench.
?
How?
I have lots of troubled visions in my head of guys driving down a road to some sort of overlook, pulling this shooting bench (? someone has to describe these benches to me), this 60 pound rifle, telescope looking spotting scope, and spending-what 15-20 minutes setting the whole thing up? I mean I can't even see how you could get all this stuff on an ATV? Where do you guys do this? On your private ranch out the back porch of the ranch house? Is this something that is set up out of a blind somewhere? How do you get the deer or the elk to come to where your setup is pointed? (sorry, trying to be a little humorous there, to lighten the mood ) Are you glassing for bedded animals and setting up after you "spot" them? Now it's always hard to communicate in writing because you can't read tone of voice, so I want to make clear I am not trying to be a smart ass here. I just don't understand how it works. I can rationalize that I doubt very much anyone is going to "pack in" somewhere with all this heavyweight gear, but I want to know about the "nuts and bolts" or the mechanics if you will about how it is you guys perform your hunting. When, where, and how are you hunting this way? I am asking for specifics because I don't understand and am not interested in just judging from false conclusions whether this is something I could/should/shouldn't try for myself. I also think if we (the non-long, long, long range hunters) knew more about it we (maybe) wouldn't be so quick to condemn it or confuse it with those "herd shooters" that some of us have seen that just shoot at anything they see whether they can hit it or not, usually when road hunting.<---I am not saying that is what you are doing, just that MAYBE some of the anti-long rangers might have that impression.
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quote:
Originally posted by Predator Master:The skill comes when I get up close and personal with my bow and in the past with my rifle. No skill in getting within 500 yards. My lethal effective distance is 40 yards I don't click adjust for the compensated 3 1/2 feet of drop over the next 300+ yards like some. I agree those in africa that use a spear are far better hunters than you or I!
So what your saying is that there is no skill involved in consistantly killing animals at 500yds with one shot. WOW!
I bet you have never shot over 200, have you. Go out to the range and set up some targets at 3-600yds, see if you can hit one of each with the first shot. And I mean actualy putting the bullet in the spot on the target you want it to be. I know I can, can you.
Here is Merriam-Websters definition of skill.
2 a : the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance b : dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks
The knowledge being knowing how to use the rifle at hand at the range you intend to shoot. The Physical task being to put a bullet where you want it umpteen hundred yds away.
3 : a learned power of doing something competently : a developed aptitude or ability
Being able to put that bullet where you want it every time.
I'd say there is a bit more skill required to do all of that than you give credit to.
Hunter333
Single shot! What, you mean to tell me you only have one bullet in the gun when you hunt. Well so do I. My Long range rifle can't be fed through the magazine ( bullets are to long) so it's fed one at a time.
whew, glad to see I'm not the only one here that supports our types.... see ya here and where we are accepted (www.longrangehunting.com )
quote:
I used to hunt with a rifle until I found it boring to hunt with since it was to easy when I took nothing beyond 100 yards. I find it harder to get up close and personal and kill it than find it far away and shoot at it! Which makes you a "Better Hunter" getting up closer or shooting it farther away!? That is why I sold my big game guns and made it hard on myself and shoot the bow! I like the challenge (The Hunt) of getting the close shot![/B]
everyone has an opinion about one thing or another. That is good. Probably most opinions are based on someones expierences.
I hunt for meat not for a world record buck. If he would come along I would certainly try to take him. Just because I am willing to shoot in a rye grass field at 400 yards in a shooting house does not mean I am a "worse hunter". If I get my climbing stand and walk down into the swamp and climb into a tree and shot a deer at 40 yards , does this make me a "better hunter"? I use different stands to accomplish my goal. Meat in the freezer.
Some people have a different expectation for themselves. If you want to challenge yourself by using to most primitive ways that is fine. Here in Mississippi we have different seasons for deer. We have archery season, gun season , primitive weapon season(muzzleloader and bow), etc..
It is legal to hunt with a bow, gun, or muzzleloader. But the one I choose to use is my preference . The one I choose does not make me a worse or better hunter.
Andrew V. McGee
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One shot, one kill. No excuses, no exceptions, EVER!!