I have been considering the Bersin tool but believe that it would only slant the bullet in the neck and possibly decrease neck tension.

I recently got an RCBS bullet puller with collets in .224, .284, .308 and .338. The collets insert from the bottom.

I had 20 loads for 300 win mag with the 200 gr Accubond. I had not previously checked for concentricity but did at the ogive of the bullet and found 8 at .001" or less, 6 at .002", 4 at .003", 1 at .004" and 1 at .005".

I left the 8 at .001" or less alone and marked the high spot on the others with a magic marker on the case. I then used the .338 collet which completely encircled the neck down to the shoulder and tightened it with the top lever and with the mark directly toward me. I did not use the shell holder on the case head. I then pushed gently but firmly an amount I felt appropriate.

It took a while but after I got the hang of it I could guesstimate and get it right. A few times I had to do it 2 or 3 times but I was able to bend the neck in line with the case body for .001" or less runout on all the cases.

Works, can anybody see any problems with this method?

Your method may work. The Bersin tool does work...................DJ

Once, a person gets the feel with his fingers in using this tool,it works fine!Do you benchrest shoot with your firearm,that all these factors are so presice?Within all that is involved in accuracy,just wondered?

Hey dj

From Kinneman's website it looked like the Bersin pushed on the bullet, is that correct? Do you have one? If it pushes on the bullet, does the bullet then bend the neck with it or just change the orientation of the bullet in the neck and slant the bullet only? I know the Bersin is expensive at $300.00 (incl shipping).

You obviously shoot some great groups from your posted targets. Do you think the Bersin is one of the major reasons or just one of many things?

Why do you say this bullet puller method may work? If it reduces runout to less than .001" (I assume you believe me when I tell you that) then isn't that the goal?

Hey Woods, nothing wrong with your method at all. I rescently started using a similar method and my groups have become much more uniform (smaller too

A series of holes drilled in a hard wood block do well as well as a junk piece of brass or a small piece of tubing with the right i.d.

You can just move the bullet as well as long as you are only correcting small amounts it will not effect your neck tension.

Good Luck

Reloader

If runout is due to improper die setup or bad dies then using a tool to straighten a small ammount of runout may help.

If runout is due to inconsistent case wall thickness, then you really haven't solved the problem and your bullet, case and chamber are still not concentric.

Straightening bullets loaded into bad cases never have shown me an improvement on a target.

Not trying to start an argument, just one guy's experience. YMMV

Covey16

I tried that a number of years ago with a 22/250.
my groups did not improve..
found that there were other factors that created the run out.
I use mostly collet dies and the run out has gone away.
the brass will be a couple thousands thicker on one side of the neck so i will turn the necks to even up before sizing.
make sure the bullet fits the seater plug to the nose of the bullet
make sure the die supports the case and that the seater plug is not adjusted down to far letting the case and bullet cock at the end of the stroke.
thats how i waste my time gettin straight

1) stop pulling expander ball through necks
2) use sliding sleeve seater
3) stop using "S" die, and use FL die with lapped neck instead

This is getting me down to 1/4 of a thou on all brass.

Guess I should have gone through my reloading procedures.

1. I use only Lee Collet Neck Sizers
2. Use Redding Body Dies when needed for PFLR
3. Neck turn with Forster Hand Held Outside Neck Turner
4. Only use RCBS Competition Seaters with the sliding sleeve except on my 280AI which I use a Redding Competition Seater with the sliding sleeve.
5. Light crimp with the Lee Factory Crimp

The reason these had runout at all is probably because the brass was Winchester which does not seem to hold concentricity on successive firings even after neck turning.

I know what concentricity is, I ran it down a long time ago and beat it up and then forgot about it. I'm just saying that if you have a problem with concentricity this might be a way to remove it.

Hey Woods, No wonder I think you are a good guy - always "thinking". Seems to be in somewhat of a short supply today.

Soooo..., from your experiments, are you of the impression that Run Out is strictly a function of the Case Neck being "bent"?

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
1. I use only Lee Collet Neck Sizers
2. Use Redding Body Dies when needed for PFLR
3. Neck turn with Forster Hand Held Outside Neck Turner
4. Only use RCBS Competition Seaters with the sliding sleeve except on my 280AI which I use a Redding Competition Seater with the sliding sleeve.
5. Light crimp with the Lee Factory Crimp.

I see you finally gave up on the Stony-Point "thingys" - good for you.

Runnout......fun out!

I always smile when I see everyone chasing every last detail down to the thousandth of an inch.

But it is your time to spend as you wish.

Would anyone want to see a test where a guy does absolute minimum prep on his .308 cases and shoots 2.5" groups at 500 yds??? I do have to warn you he's a tactical shooter with an excellent rifle......

http://www.snipershide.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cg..._topic&f=13&t=005489

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

Soooo..., from your experiments, are you of the impression that Run Out is strictly a function of the Case Neck being "bent"?

Hey HC

A very small amount of runout could come from the bullet itself, but that is negligible and unfixable. Other than that runout is a function of the axis of the case neck being out of alignment with the axis of the case body (assuming your concentricity gauge is correct).

quote:

I see you finally gave up on the Stony-Point "thingys" - good for you.

Soooo..., from your reading my post, are you of the impression that I have given up my Stoney Points?

Hey kraky

quote:

I always smile when I see everyone chasing every last detail down to the thousandth of an inch.

But it is your time to spend as you wish.

Normally I don't. I just finished loading 25 cases for my 280AI last night and checked 3 or 4 of them and they were all .001" or less so I don't worry about it. I do think that it is a good thing to go through a phase of chasing concentricity because it will make you improve your reloading techniques to get diminish runout. Once that is done and you have a system that keeps it to a minimum then don't obsess over it.

quote:

Would anyone want to see a test where a guy does absolute minimum prep on his .308 cases and shoots 2.5" groups at 500 yds??? I do have to warn you he's a tactical shooter with an excellent rifle......

Just think how small a group that guy could shoot (or rather his gun could shoot) if he did do a perfect prep!

Kraky, I did want to see the test, and I appreciate the link. Interesting....


Woods, I too would like DJ to ealborate on the Bersin tool, I've been thinking of purchasing one, just don't know if what it does is worth it, I know I'm gonna need something if I ever use my Hornady neck die again--which I don't think I will unless someone tells me how to get it to quit inducing .08 + runout into fireformed brass, even without the expander in it!!!!!

I thought I had come to the conclusion that PFLRs was the answer--although I'd like to find an answer that let me size without lubing the cases.......

Here's a good place to see how some other great shooters do it. It's amazing to see how many guys do this but don't do that. Some guys segregate bullets...some dont. Some ream necks...some don't. Some clean + unform primer pockets and flash holes....some don't even clean primer pockets. Some use bushing dies....some use fl dies. One guy doesn't clean his brass.....one guy has to wear latex gloves for reloading to keep everthing free of fingerprints.
I found it well worth reading over. I DO HAVE TO ADMIT...that alot of "long rangers" do hold runnout to high degree but remember that they are shooting matches where every so slight differences win. Still not sure the average factory rifle can tell the difference between ammo that's loaded with "reasonable care" verses ammo that is "anally" assembled. Here's the link.
http://www.6mmbr.com/topguns.html

load them streight and don't worry about having to fix them.

I don't worry about runout but I did notice that when I switched to bushing dies that runout went away. I was concerned with necks getting overworked with standard FL dies and the Redding Bushing dies don't overwork the necks and the side benefit is that things appear to be straighter.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...runout is a function of the axis of the case neck being out of alignment with the axis of the case body ...I did not use the shell holder on the case head. ...

Hey Woods, What is holding the CenterLine of the Case Body "straight" while you are crushing the Case Necks?
---

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
... I don't think I will(ever use the Hornady Neck Sizer again) unless someone tells me how to get it to quit inducing .08 + runout into fireformed brass, even without the expander in it!!!!!. ...

Hey Don, It sounds like to me you already "figured out" how to get it to quite creating the problem - you aren't using it.

Get a $5 "timer", set it for 2-3 hours, put it on the Tumbler, Lube and P-FLR the Cases, toss them in the Tumbler and go to bed. When you get up in the morning, all the Lube is gone.

Now they are ready for Trimming, Chamfering and Deburring. Get that done before going to work and when you come home, they are all ready to be re-filled(plus they shoot straight).

Good Hunting and Clean 1-shot Kills.

I really like the Bersin Tool. Obviously it's best to load rounds with zero runout in the first place. The problem is perfect ammo just doesn't always happen for me. With the Bersin tool I try and load with as low of runout as possible and then adjust it as needed.
The Berisn tool basically nudges the bullet over opposed to a dial indicator so you can judge when and how much to nudge it. I've not seen any problematic decrease in neck tension with it. I think that concentricity is far more important to accuracy than neck tension is anyway.
I've noticed 1/4 to 1/2 MOA improvement with the Bersin tool. Most of my best groups were shot with ammo I straightened. It's not cheap but if you can afford it i think it's worth it...................DJ

If, when the fired case comes out of the chamber it is not streight you have a problem with the way your chamber was cut. Under normal circumstances, if you end up with runout in a loaded ctg., you are introducing it somewhere in your loading procedure. Run the case through the concentricity guage after each step and find out where the error shows up. There are quite a few ways that these errors are encountered, and as meny ways of correcting them. Some experimenting should enable you to go through the entire procass and end up with streight ctgs.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Woods, What is holding the CenterLine of the Case Body "straight" while you are crushing the Case Necks?

Do you think by putting 4 or 5 pounds of force on the case body by hand that it will bend the case body rather than bending the neck/shoulder junction, HC? I bend it a little and put it back on the concentricity gauge to check it. I don't see why the case body would have to be supported, but maybe so. Explain it to me.

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
I really like the Bersin Tool. Obviously it's best to load rounds with zero runout in the first place. The problem is perfect ammo just doesn't always happen for me. With the Bersin tool I try and load with as low of runout as possible and then adjust it as needed.
The Berisn tool basically nudges the bullet over opposed to a dial indicator so you can judge when and how much to nudge it. I've not seen any problematic decrease in neck tension with it. I think that concentricity is far more important to accuracy than neck tension is anyway.
I've noticed 1/4 to 1/2 MOA improvement with the Bersin tool. Most of my best groups were shot with ammo I straightened. It's not cheap but if you can afford it i think it's worth it...................DJ

Thanks DJ,--if YOU have seen 1/4 to 1/2 moa improvement, than DAMN I have to have one!

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:

Thanks DJ,--if YOU have seen 1/4 to 1/2 moa improvement, than DAMN I have to have one!

Hey Fish

Let me know how it works out. We all know I would rather use a new fangled piece of equipment to do something than a piece of baling wire or a roll of duct tape like some we know.

The method above is hard to get perfect. Maybe you could use if for large runout if you ever have any and the Bersin tool for fine tuning.

quote:

Originally posted by the non-bailing wire or duct tape user:
Do you think by putting 4 or 5 pounds of force on the case body by hand that it will bend the case body rather than bending the neck/shoulder junction, HC? I bend it a little and put it back on the concentricity gauge to check it. I don't see why the case body would have to be supported, but maybe so. Explain it to me.

Hey Woods, My "old" brain cells missed that you were applying pressure to the side of the Case while it was held in the jaws of the Bullet Yanker. Now I understand what you are doing.

I agree that you are now stretching/deforming/bending/twisting/skewing(whatever) the Neck-to-Shoulder junction. Seems like the method that "Reloader" mentioned would be a bit quicker and result in the same end result. But, as long as you all are happy fighting concentricity problems, it helps keep the supply of bailing wire and duct tape high enough that the cost is still affordable for us old folks.

Maybe you could do a more precise whamming on the side of the Case with the SP thingy.