A Rifel That Has Blown Up

29 March 2002, 22:12

The rifle make is somewhat questionable, it is based on a Mauser action and does have Winchester Model OF 1917. Not sure on the barrel. This was test fired today in our laboratory (into the watertank) with supposed 150 grain 30.06 loads. I went and looked at the box and they are Austrian bullets, round nosed but no brand name on the obviously old box. I'll try and get the details later. The first three rounds went off fine. Round number four peeled it like a banana sending shrapnel from the fragmenting stock everywhere. The shooter is ok but somewhat shaken!

~Ann

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

[This message has been edited by Saeed (edited 03-29-2002).]

29 March 2002, 22:49

<Gary Rihn>

Impressive!

I've never seen one split so evenly down the entire length.

Glad everyone is OK.

Also, I'm gathering this wasn't at your place Saeed? Maybe an email you received?

29 March 2002, 23:47

Gerard

It is a customized P17 not a Mauser. The cause of the blow-up is most likely a bad barrel. The bolt is open in the photos. An overload capable of a blow-up of this magnitude will blow the action and make it difficult, if not impossible, to open the bolt without removing the barrel first. If the cartridge case came out looking ok, a serious look at who made the barrel should be the next order of business.

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Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

29 March 2002, 23:51

Clark

I get allot of guns for destructive test.

The only guns I have ever got to fail in that longitudanal split at the muzzle mode, are with obstrcted bores.

Gerard, none of them ever had stuck cases.

[This message has been edited by Clark (edited 03-29-2002).]

30 March 2002, 00:00

Saeed

Gentlemen,

This was sent to me by Aspin Hill Farm.

Ann,

I hope you can throw some light on the questions posed here.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

30 March 2002, 02:43

<MontanaMarine>

Glad to hear the shooter is OK. Wouldn't take many experiences like that to develop a bit of a flinch

30 March 2002, 03:27

<Don Martin29>

My guess is that a previous shot stuck in the barrel. I almost got hit by a barrel flying by me at the range for that reason.

Nice cheekpiece shape. It's too big for my taste but the angles are very right. Wish there were more of them.

30 March 2002, 03:32

Maltese Falcon

I would say that the bore was obstructed and when the next round fired it blew the barrel.

Has a metalurgist or machinist had a chance to look at the barrel? If it was me I would look at the midpoint of the bow and see if there was any detectable faults or stress's in the steel (pre existing).

I have heared of barrels failing because of heretofore unkown flaw in the steel, have had a couple of muzzle loaders shown to me that had split barrels and in one it was a flaw in the steel and in the other it was a short started load.

Thankfully No one was hurt.

30 March 2002, 06:31

RogerK

The rifle is a 1917 Enfield. The crooked bolt in the giveaway. I had one just like it marked Winchester and at one time had one marked Eddystone.

The key to this, I think is firing the rifle into a watertank. I'm a retired law officer with experience using water tanks. The rifle is fired holding the barrel straight down. That makes the powder drop away from the primer. If the round had a light load, you got detonation and a pressue spike. The pressure falls off fast enough to stick the bullet in the barrel. Now, with an obstruction, you get the mother of all pressure spikes as the rest of the powder burns with no place to go.

Whatever pet theory anyone supports, it has to include what looks like a bad piece of steel used in the barrel. I saw several guns the blew up on the range back when departments used wadcutters and Bulleye and the round was double charged or worse. None of the weapons ever broke that clean.

I also saw an AFT agent shoot off his middle finger with an H & K 9mm. But that's another story.

30 March 2002, 08:12

Zero Drift

Some one has a very sore left hand IF it is still attached.

30 March 2002, 09:50

John Y Cannuck

Thanks for the pics Saeed, I'll add that to my collection. (just started) Looks like a barrel obstruction to me.

30 March 2002, 10:31

358Mark

I saw the same thing happen 30 yr. ago to Al Pedersen. He tripped and got mud in barrel of a P17 300H+H. When he fired the last 6" or so of the barrel peeled back just as in this pic. As I recall he cut off the banana peel and kept hunting.Mark

30 March 2002, 11:26

<JBelk>

That's a classic case of barrel failure from a LONG obstruction.

I'd tell your tester to NOT put the barrel in the water when firing.

There are pictures in American Rifleman in the late '50s exactly like this one. It was caused from firing in water.

I know of two guns that look very similar from ice coated barrels. I assume that's not a possibility in your area? <smile>

The line of the failure follows the line of drill and tapped holes for the sights instead of the rifling. That was unexpected in the NRA test.

30 March 2002, 11:59

SDS

This is covered at sufficient length in the American Rifleman issue of January 1987. Using that article as my guide, it's pretty clear that the blowup was caused by a barrel obstruction consisting of the remainder of a squib load, leaving the bullet and some unburned powder in the barrel. When the next round was fired, the barrel was split. The author (Bruce W. Spaulding) notes that the overpressure is confined to the space between the bullets, and the cartridge case doesn't "see the extremely high pressure necessary to rupture the barrel." The length of the fracture is entirely typical.

It would be useful to know HOW MANY bullets were in the water tank after the third shot and before the fourth, but that information is of course not available, because anybody who was one bullet short would know just where to look for it....

I may have survived this long only by virtue of the assistance of my friends, who sometimes desire to look down the barrel of new rifles in search of obstructions even after huge bangs and fountains of debris that sifted down out of the air for a few seconds, and who otherwise look after me. I'm not immune to error.

The moral to this story is that if a shot doesn't sound right or feel right or otherwise feels "funny," it's time to take a prudent look down the barrel.

30 March 2002, 12:58

BCB

Just curious...Where do you think the obstruction was located to split the barrel in that manner? BCB

30 March 2002, 13:39

D Humbarger

The muzzle sticking into the water was it?

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NRA Life member

30 March 2002, 14:22

SDS

Keeping in mind that I have neither the education nor the experience to write about this authoritatively (which is why I referred you to the article):

If you look at the right side of the barrel, the obstruction would have been at the point of maximum bow/curvature, about three inches back from the muzzle.

Other notes: rifle actions that would look very similar to the action in these photos would include at least the P14, the P17, and the Remington Model 30. Also, the photo that looks back from the muzzle may show no crown, tool marks on the muzzle (from a hacksaw?), a (currently!) nonround bore, and a crack on the right side of the barrel that goes back to where the obstruction was located?

I have been wanting to recover some good looking rifle bullets, but I don't have access to one of those really cool police forensic water tank bullet traps that goes straight down with the built-in strainer/bullet catcher, so I was thinking about PVC pipe. I was thinking about a tee and a 6' straight length glued together with a cap on one end of the crossbar of the tee and the pipe glued into the other end. In practice the device is set up with the pipe level and the post of the tee set straight up. Saran wrap is placed over the end of the pipe, a rubber band holds the saran wrap on, and the device is filled with water through the open top of the tee. Then we shoot through the center of the saran wrap parallel to the pipe, rewrap, and refill with water. This device would have the merit of locating bullet impact far away from the shooter and the end of the barrel. Maybe I should refer design to Walter, with Saeed then to do the testing ?

30 March 2002, 15:01

Carnivore

Ok, here goes my guess. Notice the marks on the outside of the bbl? The firing tanks I have seen all used a small oval hole cut into a heavy steel safety lid. None of them were vertical. They were old police firing tanks.
From the marks on the bbl I would say that the shooter had at least seven inches of bbl through the opening when it let go from a bore obstruction. That being water from the previous shot. Some claim that escaping gas will clear a bore of water drops before a bullet gets there, but, I believe that statement is insane.
The force and momentum of the event smacked the ends of the bbl against the sides of the hole in the steel lid causing the bow shape of peeling. Try it on purpose and I bet you get the same result. Any volunteers?

30 March 2002, 16:20

Matt Norman

When I first saw that photo I thought: "Dang, that sure looks familiar...Ann has a poster like that near her office too! (Ann and I work at the same place).

Ann, I sure hope that wasn't the Captain's favorite rifle! If it is, somebody is going back to night shift with weekdays off!

30 March 2002, 17:33

<Scott H>

I'll second the notion of a bad barrel. It is common practice to use free machining steels for barrels. Most common free machining alloys used are re-sulfurized steels. Typical examples are: 416 S/S and 416R S/S, variants if the SAE 11XX series (Stress Proof, etc.)
These alloys are noted for having Manganese Sulfide stringers that run in the longitudinal direction. Usually these defects are caught at the mill and and the lot discarded.

I suspect this barrel may have been flawed in this manner. For featherweight and standard weight hunting barrels, make mine a chrome moly...

(I should have thirded the notion, I didn't see Rodger's response till after I posted.)

[This message has been edited by Scott H (edited 03-30-2002).]

31 March 2002, 00:22

John Y Cannuck

Look closely at the end of the barrel.
has this barrel been squeezed in a vise? It appears that the bore was not round.
OK Saeed fess up, whats going on here?
How about some pics from different angles?

31 March 2002, 00:40

Saeed

John Y Cannuck,

If you look at the signature on the first post, you will see who sent me these photos.

I have not had a sex change yet, and have no intention of soing so either

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

31 March 2002, 04:14

<Daryl Elder>

Saeed, if you do, please post photo.

On topic, I have seen this before in a more drmatic fashion. A 7mm-08 with an octagon bbl that was peeled back as neat as you please like the peel of a bannana, just like in a cartoon. The cause was some ice in the end of the muzzle. One could actually see where the bullet came up the bbl and met the obstruction-- there was a slightly larger bulge at that point. Of course the real cause was the idiot that stuffed his muzzle into the snow and blasted away without paying attention to such dangers. Scary!

31 March 2002, 05:03

John Y Cannuck

Saeed
You won't even model a nice dress?

That flat spot is still curious, though it might be that the expanding barrel simply made it look like that. I take it the other marks are a result of banging the sides of the enclosure.

01 April 2002, 14:22

Dave Jenkins

At first glance I thought the map on the wall was of West Virginia...that would have explained everything.....sorry

01 April 2002, 15:41

<GAHUNTER>

It appears the action held tight. This would not be a surprize since the 17 Enfield is one of strongest actions ever built. A little known fact is that it was a 17 Enfield that Sgt. York used to capture and kill about 200 enemy soldiers in WW I, not an '03 Springfield as depicted in the movie.

01 April 2002, 17:00

<BigBob>

SAEED,
Something like this can ruin a whole week. There are many potential causes for this. The only way to really determine the cause is to submit it, and all the cases that were fired in it, to a labratory for testing. The most likely cause is a barrel obstruction. Another cause may be due to ammo that was stored incorrectly and the powder deteriorated. Under this scenario, the bullet fired may act as its own obstruction. Thank you for the pictures. Let us know what you find out. That must have hurt the shooter, it hurts me just to look at it.

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BigBob

01 April 2002, 18:28

rejpelly

Saeed;if I look at both sides of the barrel,the right side appears with no "dents",the left side with some,I must presume this barrel should have "dents" on both sides ;,what a side get,the other should miss it...

01 April 2002, 18:55

Saeed

Ann,

Where are you?

You might like to answer some of the questions posted.

Gentlemen,

I am sure Ann is busy, once she is back she will answer all your questions on this accident.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

02 April 2002, 07:32

Fritz Kraut

Gentlemen,

I have seen such a picture once before, in a Swedish hunting mag in the eighties. It was also a sporterized P17 in .30-06, and the barrel was splitted in the same way. I donï¿½t remember the explanation in that article.

Best regards,

Fritz

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...the mark of the hunter is the ability to get close.

02 April 2002, 08:15

Gatogordo

Wow, it sure is going to be hard to bore sight it for next hunting season.

02 April 2002, 09:44

PAWildcatter

The action is a P-17 "P" meaning Pattern 17 a.k.a the 1917 US Enfield.

I own several A-Squares, which are built on the P-17s, and a few other customized 1917 Enfields. The receivers are close to explosion proof.

Many gunsmiths will say that next to the Arisaka, the 1917 Enfield is the 2nd strongest action ever designed and built.

I agree with the rest. It appears as if bore obstruction caused that incident.

Lucky the shooter didn't loose a hand or some fingers.

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Speak softly and carry a really big MAGNUM.

Regards,

Mark

02 April 2002, 10:38

<Gary Rihn>

quote:
Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Wow, it sure is going to be hard to bore sight it for next hunting season.

Not really. Instead of searching for the correct size spud, just use the nearest broomhandle!

02 April 2002, 12:20

Aspen Hill Adventures

Hello Everyone,

I had a bit of trouble locating this thread as there are sooooomany different forums on this site! But here is what I know...

The shooter is one of my co-workers and we are assigned to the department crime laboratory. All confiscated weapons brought into our establishment are test fired before destruction.

Yes, the shooter had a VERY sore left hand. It hurt for quite awhile!

There was a witness, not myself, but all fired bullets, including this one, were recovered in the tank. They all appeared "normal" and not marked or deformed in any way.

There appeared to be no unusual gouges or markings inside the barrel to show where the bullet could have become stuck.

The bolt was opened by the shooter to remove the shell casing.

He feels certain the end of the barrel was not in the water.

The ammuntion is indeed 150 grain soft point, round nose 30.06 cal and has no brand name, just a plain box with "Made In Austria". It looked very old to me.

Ok, more to the puzzle..........Just the next day the exact same thing happened to a Glock 9mm pistol. If you've seen a Glock barrel I cannot figure out how this would happen to it. There was one complete split down the entire length.

I tend to think he got the barrels in the water. The odds of two in a row are a bit high.

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~Ann
Orion Trophy Expeditions

02 April 2002, 15:25

<Sendaro>

It be that the anti gunners have put the JU-JU on it!

02 April 2002, 17:31

m1carbine

quote:
Originally posted by Aspen Hill Farm:
Hello Everyone,
The shooter is one of my co-workers and we are assigned to the department crime laboratory. All confiscated weapons brought into our establishment are test fired before destruction.
Ok, more to the puzzle..........Just the next day the exact same thing happened to a Glock 9mm pistol. If you've seen a Glock barrel I cannot figure out how this would happen to it. There was one complete split down the entire length.
I tend to think he got the barrels in the water. The odds of two in a row are a bit high.

Its seems that he is trying to save the local tax payers money my testing and destroying all in one step. :-)
Ray

02 April 2002, 17:43

Bill Leeper

No question that the barrel was obstructed in some way. Split nicely.
I had one come into the shop in Calgary. A German made Weatherby in 300 Mag. It was fired with snow in the barrel and split all the way back to the receiver right up the middle. When I removed the barrel it fell apart since the receiver was no longer holding it together. The split case was still in the chamber. I kept it for several years then gave it to a fellow who was teaching firearms safety.
One friend had a habit of carrying his rifle muzzle down in his truck. Not surprisingly, the barrel got plugged at the muzzle with mud. On his way home from work he saw a nice buck and jumped out dropping a shell into the chamber. He fired and the buck was still standing. He ejected the brass and reloaded. His view through the scope seemed blurred and he then noticed the cause. The barrel had split and was sticking up in front of the scope. He didn't attempt the second shot.

03 April 2002, 03:42

Vibe

Here is a link to a M1A that decided to "Come from together". But this one has another link to a full metalurigical analysis of the failure. I think it may surprise some of you. It did me.

http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-762d.html

http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-762r.html