RCBS Case Lube Corroding Ammo

18 June 2018, 14:30

I thought I will share with you this.

The photos above are self explanatory.

These 223 rounds were loaded in 1995.

That is a not a problem by itself, as I have some loaded ammo I reloaded in the 70's and they shoot perfectly fine.

I have this on numerous occasions, and it has always been when using the RCBS very sticky case lube.

It worked great for lubricating cases, whether for sizing or case forming.

18 June 2018, 15:05

eagle27

That is not nice. I have only ever used a small soft brush and graphite for inside necks.

18 June 2018, 16:06

Saeed

We have used numerous types of lube, never had this happen except with this one.

18 June 2018, 19:03

jpl

Thanks for sharing your pictures. I use the sticky RCBS lube and a lube pad for full length sizing or forming some kinds of brass. I always wash the brass in water and dry it in the tumbler though. I think the lube is water based, because it rinses off in water easily. So this lube may attract moisture in storage. For neck sizing I use the dry moly powder and don't bother cleaning it before assembling ammo.

18 June 2018, 23:09

JJB

i use dies with carbide sizers so i don't use any lube but i only reload straight wall cases (.357 .38 special 9mm)... those pics are NOT the way reloaded ammo should be..... and thanks for the heads up on the lube..........

19 June 2018, 02:06

hivelosity

Is It possible the primers were corrsosive. and a residue remained inside the case?
Corrosive ammunition is ammunition that uses a primer that has chemicals that when ignited leave a residue of corrosive salts. Most often these primers have potassium chlorate, or sodium petrochlorate which, when burned, decompose into potassium chloride or sodium chloride.

19 June 2018, 03:11

B L O'Connor

That isn't something I'd like to see on my ammo.

If I'm neck sizing, I use Imperial Dry Neck lube.

If FL sizing, I begin with either Imperial Case Sizing Wax (finger application) or RCBS lube (on a pad). I don't lube the necks with either.

Once I've got my case bodies lubed, I dip the mouth into the Imperial Dry lube and proceed to resize. I then measure, trim and wash in a solution of mild dish soap containing a few drops of vinegar.

19 June 2018, 03:34

Bobster

Looks like bad powder to me. You wouldn't have gotten lube on the bullet bases. I just pulled 100 rounds I loaded with some old IMR 4198. Looked just like that. Any acrid acidic smell from the powder?

19 June 2018, 05:51

Live Oak

I had some mild loaded 244 Rem stuff that showed high pressure years after loading. I did not load it but do know it was with a ball powder and RCBS lube. The bullet had fused to the case. When I got one apart, load was well under max. Bottom edge of the bullet/case looked the same as yours. I read somewhere that it was a gilded metal/brass issue. Mine was from a very long time ago!

19 June 2018, 06:57

Saeed

Gentlemen,

I put this up here as an example, as I had it happen more than once, and the only common denominator was the RCBS sticky lube.

The primers were modern non corrosive - in this case Federal 205M.

The powder was normal, in fact, I loaded all of it and it all fired???

The part I am not sure of is how it had affected the primers??

When I started getting misfires, I looked closely, and saw what you see.

Some of the ammo did fire without any problem.

I decided to just dis-assemble the rest.

19 June 2018, 07:04

B L O'Connor

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Gentlemen,

I put this up here as an example, as I had it happen more than once, and the only common denominator was the RCBS sticky lube.

The primers were modern non corrosive - in this case Federal 205M.

The powder was normal, in fact, I loaded all of it and it all fired???

The part I am not sure of is how it had affected the primers??

When I started getting misfires, I looked closely, and saw what you see.

Some of the ammo did fire without any problem.

I decided to just dis-assemble the rest.

You know your, er, stuff so I think I already know the answer. But: What were the storage conditions for your ammo? Was the temperature particularly high?

19 June 2018, 09:12

30.06king

Saeed,
I think you have cleared up a mystery for me. I have experienced exactly what your photos show, and I also used RCBS sticky lube but at the time I never connected the dots. I loaded ammo ( .270 W ) that then sat unused for several years. Bullets were Remington Core Lokt, Primers CCI, Brass likely to have been Winchester. At the time I suspected it was bad Vitavuori N140 powder as when I checked my stock it had gone off. It is the only time I have had powder decompose. I decided to shoot one round that didn't look too bad and it hang fired and blew the extractor off my bolt ! I pulled the rest and several cases ruptured through the shoulder leaving the neck stuck to the bullets. I could see that the cases had also started to rot.
I have now used Hornady One Shot for quite a few years with absolutely zero indication of similar problems.

19 June 2018, 09:29

vzerone

It's not the powder, it's the water in that RCBS lube. It's corroding the bullet jacket. The brushes with the mica or graphite on them that you run your case necks over are a good way to clean and lube them. So it cleaning your cases in a tumbler or vibrator. Some people twist a Crayon inside the case neck. If you have a lot of heavy carbon inside the case necks, believe me, even a carbide expander won't stop grating.

I've had the water based Hornady case lubes not only fail (stuck case in the resizing die), but it also rusted my dies!

Vince

19 June 2018, 10:57

ALF

Not case lube per se !

Degradation of propellant yields hydrochloric acid. ( muriatic acid) This gives degrading powder its acrid pungent smell.
hydrochloric acid does not react directly with copper

it will however react with copper oxide ! the result you see are the salts of this reaction.

The water in the lube or simply air can oxidize the copper to form copper oxide.

19 June 2018, 18:31

243winxb

Not RCBS lube.
Have loaded 223 using RCBS lube, both old and the current. Ammo has been in storage also for years.

Its a powder problem. IMO http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=685785

19 June 2018, 20:08

vzerone

Saeed, send the pictures and statement to the powder manufacturer and see what they have to say.

Vince

19 June 2018, 23:53

bartsche

quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
Not case lube per se !

Degradation of propellant yields hydrochloric acid. ( muriatic acid) This gives degrading powder its acrid pungent smell.
hydrochloric acid does not react directly with copper

it will however react with copper oxide ! the result you see are the salts of this reaction.

The water in the lube or simply air can oxidize the copper to form copper oxide.

An 8 pound jug of surplus 4895 gave me an Identical problem . The powder had the heavy smell of NITRIC ACID. WWII mil. 4895 did not always get the necessary amount of rinsing. Supposedly
it was being used so fast that it was expedient to eliminate a rinse or TWO. At least that was the answer I got. I also had to clean my Redding powder measure.

roger

23 June 2018, 06:27

Bobster

I just lost an 8 lb jug of IMR surplus 4895 for the same reason. Yes, it is nitric not hydrochloric acid. I had big plans for that jug.

quote:
Originally posted by bartsche:
quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
Not case lube per se !

Degradation of propellant yields hydrochloric acid. ( muriatic acid) This gives degrading powder its acrid pungent smell.
hydrochloric acid does not react directly with copper

it will however react with copper oxide ! the result you see are the salts of this reaction.

The water in the lube or simply air can oxidize the copper to form copper oxide.

An 8 pound jug of surplus 4895 gave me an Identical problem . The powder had the heavy smell of NITRIC ACID. WWII mil. 4895 did not always get the necessary amount of rinsing. Supposedly
it was being used so fast that it was expedient to eliminate a rinse or TWO. At least that was the answer I got. I also had to clean my Redding powder measure. roger

24 June 2018, 06:01

Nakihunter

VV N140 is way too fast a powder for the 270Win.
That might explian the pressure and extractor damage.

Are you sure you were not using N160?

quote:
Originally posted by 30.06king:
Saeed,
I think you have cleared up a mystery for me. I have experienced exactly what your photos show, and I also used RCBS sticky lube but at the time I never connected the dots. I loaded ammo ( .270 W ) that then sat unused for several years. Bullets were Remington Core Lokt, Primers CCI, Brass likely to have been Winchester. At the time I suspected it was bad Vitavuori N140 powder as when I checked my stock it had gone off. It is the only time I have had powder decompose. I decided to shoot one round that didn't look too bad and it hang fired and blew the extractor off my bolt ! I pulled the rest and several cases ruptured through the shoulder leaving the neck stuck to the bullets. I could see that the cases had also started to rot.
I have now used Hornady One Shot for quite a few years with absolutely zero indication of similar problems.

24 June 2018, 10:09

30.06king

Are you sure you were not using N160?

Good spotting Naki and I stand corrected. I checked old records and it was in fact N160. Apart from burning dirty which I didn't like N160 made a reasonable .270 W load. I just don't know why it decomposed. For me it's the only powder that ever has. I have even older other powders that are still perfect. Cheers.