For those who've wondered where I've been...

20 March 2006, 02:18

I've been researching some stuff for a "rifle" project.

Seeing as how DD's adventures with the .416 have had some close calls with the much hated crat, I decided something more potent was called for.

4 BORE.

That's right. Inspired by the lunacy of fellow AR members Ed Hubel, and Rob Garrick, I've decided there's only on approriate stopper for the much hated Felinus Domesticus, and it has a .950 groove diameter.

First, the Barrel - this is the easy part - Krieger makes them - gonna be a 2" diameter straight tube as long as they'll make it. I am going to have to machine a custom muzzle brake, as nobody makes one that big. The action is going to be basically a scaled down version of an Artillery dropping block. I'm still undecided as to the stock - should I make this a return to battery rail gun, or go for the outrageous and make it a mini towed arty?

Ammunition proved to be the headache, specifically brass. I've got two leads, and I'm going to pursue both in the next week or two. Bullets are going to be cast, from a 3500grain mold from NEI. That's 8 ounces folks! I plan on shooting hefty loads of 870 surplus powder, it should lob that big hunka lead close to 1600FPS. That works out to be in the neighborhood of 20K ft/lbs. of Muzzle Energy.

Wanna know the best part? It has a DD exemption.

I think it should serve as a stopper for crats. lol

HTRN

20 March 2006, 03:02

johnch

I have one of those 3500 gr cast bullets laying around .
I did some trading with a guy from another Forum and he sent me one as a teaser .

IMO you should just have enough energy to do the job right

I am building a 50/460 , but that will be a pipsquike compaired to your toy .

Johnch

20 March 2006, 03:57

HTRN

quote:
Originally posted by johnch:IMO you should just have enough energy to do the job right

Crats have 9 lives, I intend to take all of them in one swoop.

HTRN

20 March 2006, 07:35

dustoffer

Somebody somewhere on AR said it best: "USE ENOUGH GUN"

20 March 2006, 07:41

Hog Killer

HTRN,

Go for the towed arty set up. No break will be needed then. Also no wood working. Set it up with an automatic breech that opens at full recoil position. That way you just need to throw in another round and close the breech.

I would also suggest water quinched wheel weight lead for your projos, hard, cheap and plentifull.

Keep us posted on your design, I like the scaled down arty idea. May need one myself, as I do not have a breech loading cannon.

Hog Killer

20 March 2006, 08:25

HTRN

quote:
Originally posted by dustoffer:
Somebody somewhere on AR said it best: "USE ENOUGH GUN"

I dunno, Ed Hubel is building a 2 bore on surplus 30mm barrels.

quote:
Originally posted by Hog Killer:
HTRN,

Go for the towed arty set up. No break will be needed then. Also no wood working. Set it up with an automatic breech that opens at full recoil position. That way you just need to throw in another round and close the breech.

I would also suggest water quinched wheel weight lead for your projos, hard, cheap and plentifull.

Keep us posted on your design, I like the scaled down arty idea. May need one myself, as I do not have a breech loading cannon.

Hog Killer

The hard part is going to be getting this past NYC firearms control. I don't see a problem with the BATFE, as it's an existing design, but oddball stuff, in large calibers would set off alarm bells in Queens Borough Hall. I may make everything BUT the receiver, until I can get the feck out of here.

I'm familiar with casting - I have something like 20 Magma molds waiting for me to come up with the scratch for a Master Caster. I'm also an occasional poster on the Castboolits board. Waterdropping makes wheel weights HARD. Like 27 Brinnell. I may not be able to size them manually. As it is, I'm going to have to build some kind of sizing machine, as I can't even make a die to go into a regular press, the boolit is just too damn big. What I may try is to dip in some lube, and then press them through a sizing block using a 50 ton hydraulic press.

Wood was never an option. The action simply wouldn't permit it. Arty falling blocks are open at the back. I was talking a RAIL gun. If you ever seen unlimited class BR, you'll know what I'm talking about. As it stands, I am going to rip off one concept from them no matter which version I do: mounting is going to be a barrel clamp, or some variation thereof.

HTRN

20 March 2006, 21:12

panzerguy

Let me know when you're ready to shoot Armor Piercing depleted uranium fin-guided discarding sabot rounds.

20 March 2006, 21:42

CDH

I say no true redneck would settle for less than shoulder fired!

Have you got the right stuff?

20 March 2006, 23:20

96Swede

quote:
I say no true redneck would settle for less than shoulder fired!

Two words for you "Detached Retinas"

21 March 2006, 00:54

HTRN

quote:
Originally posted by panzerguy:
Let me know when you're ready to shoot Armor Piercing depleted uranium fin-guided discarding sabot rounds.

Nothing but cast lead. Shooting nasty stuff is a nice way of getting the Boys in Black Suits after you.

quote:
Originally posted by CDH:
I say no true redneck would settle for less than shoulder fired!

Have you got the right stuff?

Considering that I plan on using loads approxmately DOUBLE in terms of energy of what's considered "prudent" in conventional 4 bore rifles, I think not. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid.

HTRN

21 March 2006, 05:43

johnch

Here is a pic of the bullet you are going to use I think .
It is 2.22 " long .
The loaded round is a 44 mag for compairson .

Johnch

21 March 2006, 05:54

HTRN

Yup, that's the one.

Hell, I don't even need the gun to kill a crat with it, just throw at it!

You wouldn't happen to still be in touch with the guy who gave it to you, perchance? I'd like to hear how he's sizing them.

And for the edification of the hard to impress:

Heeheehee. I almost wish Birman and his flunky were still here.

HTRN

21 March 2006, 07:44

CDH

quote:
I plan on using loads approxmately DOUBLE in terms of energy of what's considered "prudent" in conventional 4 bore rifles

2 words: Muzzle Brake

2 more words: Ear protection

Last word: OUCH!

21 March 2006, 07:52

Hog Killer

HTRN,

Great looking round. I would not worry about sizing those bullets. As long as they are no more than .002-.004" over bore size, I would just shoot them. Lube them by hand, just smear the lube on and seat them.

Go ahead with the action and mount, and leave the barrel off till you get "Out of Dodge", so to speak. This project would also be neat in 50BMG. Easy to feed, HV, scoped, long range crat blaster.

Hog Killer

21 March 2006, 09:03

HTRN

quote:
Originally posted by CDH:
2 words: Muzzle Brake

2 more words: Ear protection

Last word: OUCH!

I may very well have to use a muzzle brake, to keep the thing from moving, but I'd rather not as cast lead bullets and brakes do not get along on the best of terms.

quote:
Originally posted by Hog Killer:
HTRN,

Great looking round. I would not worry about sizing those bullets. As long as they are no more than .002-.004" over bore size, I would just shoot them. Lube them by hand, just smear the lube on and seat them.

Go ahead with the action and mount, and leave the barrel off till you get "Out of Dodge", so to speak. This project would also be neat in 50BMG. Easy to feed, HV, scoped, long range crat blaster.

Hog Killer

The bullet is nominally .005 over as cast, but if I think the alloy used for measurement is higher in Antimony than wheel weights, and probably shrinks less.

Making the action without a greenform is a serious nono. It's legally considered a firearm, even without a barrel. Even Muzzleloaders require a permit here. Personally, I think this is an awful lot of work for a .50 - it's expensive and time consuming. for something you can buy for $2k in a singleshot bolt action.

I'm not going to give/sell plans, blueprints, etc, but I do plan to document the build once the money starts flowing and the chips start flying. Any competent machinist will be able to duplicate the general design.

HTRN

21 March 2006, 09:51

Hog Killer

quote:
Originally posted by HTRN:
Making the action without a greenform is a serious nono. It's legally considered a firearm, even without a barrel. Even Muzzleloaders require a permit here.

HTRN

MOVE

21 March 2006, 10:34

HTRN

quote:
Originally posted by Hog Killer:
MOVE

What do you think I'm planning to do?

HTRN

21 March 2006, 12:34

derf

If you had gone with a standard 20MM brass would have been relatively easy to come by!

derf

21 March 2006, 14:29

HTRN

If I had gone with Standard 20mm, I would have needed a Destructive device permit. Something that is simply not possible here.

BTW, PacNor sells 20mm barrels.

I also know where to get 40mm barrels.

HTRN

21 March 2006, 16:37

brassb

What do you use for a gas check? The bottom half of a beer can? Also, if you go for end to end shots that should clean all nine lives out of them at once.

21 March 2006, 17:04

HTRN

I DETEST gaschecks. There too damn much work, and it's something else to buy. Big slow moving stuff like this doesn't have any checks,(In fact, I only have one mold that's a gas check design, and it's going to be reamed out to a plain base).

HTRN

21 March 2006, 20:57

derf

It's kind of wierd how the laws work in our respective countries. Up here a 50cal Barrett is restricted or prohibited but we can have an M79 and it isn't even considered a firearm because of it's low velocity. Go figure!

derf

22 March 2006, 05:48

HTRN

A Destructive Device is any firearm over .50 caliber with "Sporting use" exceptions. Basically, if it's over .50 and can shoot Military Ammo, you need a DD permit.

The 4 bore has such an exception, it's an ooollllddd cartridge, originally loaded with black powder. Searcy actually makes a 4 bore double.

HTRN

22 March 2006, 07:41

claybuster

But yet you can go and buy a full size replica black powder cannon,,or build a bowling ball mortar,,with no paperwork at all? Clay

22 March 2006, 14:05

HTRN

No cartridges.

If it's non fixed ammunition, it isn't considered a firearm(at least not as far as the Fed.gov is concerned).

Also, any gun made before 1898 isn't considered a firearm.

HTRN

22 March 2006, 18:45

WannabeBwana

quote:
Originally posted by claybuster:
But yet you can go and buy a full size replica black powder cannon,,or build a bowling ball mortar,,with no paperwork at all? Clay

Dumb Canadian laws thought up by dumb Canadian politicians and bureaucrats.

Flintlock rifles don't have to be registered, and don't require a permit to buy, because they are "antique firearms" - even brand new ones.

Flintlock handguns have to be registered and you have to have a restricted firearms (handgun) permit to have them (apparently, they AREN'T antiques - even real antique ones). However, percussion rifles have to be registered. Percussion handguns require registration and a handgun permit.

Virtually identical technology, the only difference being the source of ignition.

Cannons/mortars are considered "antique firearms" and don't require registration or a permit.

I've seen a Pedersoli .69 cal mini-cannon. Unregistered, unrestricted, uncontrolled. I could take the barrel off and stick it in my coat and walk down the busiest street in Toronto, loaded, with a fuse in the hole and a match in my pocket, and I would not technically be breaking any FIREARMS law (though I'm sure the cops would find SOMETHING to charge me with). If I took the barrel off my single shot percussion or flintlock pistol, and carried it completely empty, I would be charged with carrying a concealed weapon, illegal transport of a restricted weapon, weapons dangerous, and anything else they could think to throw at me.