Idiot question

30 November 2003, 06:46

Leftoverdj

Idiot question

Since copper fouling is death to cast bullet accuracy, why do GCed bullets work so well?

Only thing I can come up with is that maybe the lube and the limited contact area of the GC prevent copper fouling?

Better answers?

30 November 2003, 07:17

Oldfeller

You got it. I have never seen copper fouling in a cast bullet bore from the gas check.

I have seen occasional little half-moon bits of the sharp edge of the gas check when cleaning out a revolver. I have seen some tiny microscopic copper shavings in the gas piston of an autoloader (that apparently got clipped off by the edge of the gas hole as the gas check went past).

Still, gas checks never have "copper fouled" the bore itself in anything in my past shooting experience.

Oldfeller

30 November 2003, 07:29

starmetal

I think the checks are by far easier to engrave then a condom bullet so they don't rub against the bore as bad. Plus the fact you fellows mentioned about them being so small and their is lube involved. I've often wondered aside from the moly coats why there hasn't been any lube development for condon bullets. I've heard that you oil or lube them they don't shoot as well. Why is that? Surely as hard as they are lubing them doesn't make they strip in the bore. Any thoughts on that?
Joe

30 November 2003, 08:59

aladin

quote:
Originally posted by Leftoverdj:
Since copper fouling is death to cast bullet accuracy, why do GCed bullets work so well?

Only thing I can come up with is that maybe the lube and the limited contact area of the GC prevent copper fouling?

Better answers?

Checks DO copper foul over a long period of time given the right circumstances or using a check dia well over groove dia. Most shooters keep the velocities down, use common bullet designs that carry much more lube than's needed and often don't get that tube that clean anyway.

30 November 2003, 11:04

lewisgoldstein

It appears even J***eted bullets benefit from lube, andthe lube just ahead of the GC is probably all that is needed, besides the "scraper effect" Veral talks about as the GC moves. - Lew

BULLET LUBES (Article from my archives)

by Jim Taylor

All bullets need lubrication, some more than others. I know it is commonly taken that jacketed bullets do not
need lube. If that were the case however we would not use oil in the bearings on our cars. Fire a few thousand
jacketed bullets through your barrel and watch it turn copper-colored in the rifling and then tell me jacketed
bullets don't need lube. They do, however, need it far less than lead bullets.

A few years ago I ran a test - lubricating jacketed bullets. I did this after I pulled some early Winchester .45
Silver Tip bullets and found that they had a grease groove in the jacket!! Hmm....does Winchester know
something I don't? I thought. So I gave it try.

TEST 1 - fired in a Ruger .45 Colt Blackhawk 7 1/2" - using WW cases with CCI LP primers - 22 gr. H-110
and the Speer 300 gr. PSP bullet. The bullet was seated out of the case as far as possible, crimping into the
bottom crimp groove.

NO LUBE

Load #1 - 974 fps
Load #2 - 815 fps
Load #3 - 1003 fps
Load #4 - 993 fps
Load #5 - 987 fps
Load #6 - 896 fps

Average of all shots - 944 fps

LUBED WITH LEE LIQUID ALOX - ALLOWED TO DRY 24 HRS. BEFORE FIRING

Load #1 - 1027 fps
Load #2 - 1075 fps
Load #3 - 1063 fps
Load #4 - 1062 fps
Load #5 - 1055 fps
Load #6 - 1000 fps

Average of all shots - 1046 fps

Next I fired the 7 1/2" .454 Casull with the same bullet loaded over 30 gr. H-110, using CCI #400 Small Rifle
Primers.

NO LUBE - average velocity 1698 fps

LUBED WITH LEE LIQUID ALOX (dried 24 hrs. before loading and firing) - average velocity 1775 fps

FIRED FOR ACCURACY AT 25 YARDS FROM A REST

Bullets without Lube
2" average
Bullets with Lube
1.75" average

What did it prove? Bullets going down a bore have friction. Something we all know. Often we do not think
about jacketed bullets and barrel friction though. What little testing I have done leads me to believe that you can
have too much of a good thing. Accuracy is not always enhanced by better lubrication. Bullets apparently need
some "drag".

LEAD BULLETS

Reloaders have always known that lead bullets need lubrication. Dry lead on a dry barrel causes real problems.
Once lead starts building up in a bore it can continue, aggravating itself. A man once brought Dad a pistol and
asked him if he could clean it. It was an H&R .22 revolver. The bore was so leaded that it would not allow a
.22 caliber brush into it. The guy had been shooting it that way for some time. He said it was hard to hit
anything with it and figured maybe it needed cleaned.

Dad and I found some of the bullets that had been fired from this gun. They were squeezed down to about 15
caliber and were real long and skinny. Dad got the gun clean in about 10 minutes. His secret involved using a
torch... after the owner had gone home.

The list of commonly used bullets lubes over the years is interesting:

US Army 1855 - 1 part beeswax, 3 parts tallow
US Army 1861 - 8 parts beeswax, 1 part tallow
US Army 1873 - 8 parts bayberry wax, 1 part graphite
US Army 1880 - Japan wax
Sharps Rifle Co. 1878 - 1 part beeswax, 2 parts sperm oil.
Maynard Rifle 1890 - 1 part beeswax, 3 parts tallow
Marlin Firearms Co. 1891 - 1 part beeswax, 4 parts tallow
S&W 1891 - tallow
H.M. Pope 1900 - 3 parts mutton tallow, 2 parts bay wax, 1 part beeswax, 1 part steam cylinder oil, .2 of 1
part Acheson graphite. (The bay wax can be omitted)
A large Police Dept. 1962 - 1 part beeswax, 1 part paraffin wax, 1 part cosmoline.

Dad and I did a series of tests years ago to find out what would work for bullet lube. We wanted a lube that
was easy to make and use. It was for loads under 950 fps in sixguns - practice loads. We experimented with a
number of things and found that you could lube a bullet with a number of substances. For instance, I took some
cartridges which had the bullets loaded "dry" - no lube on them. I would dip the nose of the bullet in motor oil,
shove the cartridge into the chamber, roll the cylinder around and fire. They worked just fine...except the gun
got slick after a little while. I tried Vaseline, brake fluid, Butch Wax... it all worked OK if you fired the cartridge
right away. Left too long the oils would "creep" back into the case and kill the powder. But it did show what
would keep a barrel from leading.

Eventually we settled on crayons. Yep. We melted crayons in a skillet, tossed in a handful of bullets, rolled
them around until they were covered, dumped them out on a newspaper and let the wax harden. I would shoot
these in the .357 and .45 Colt at speeds up to 800 fps without any leading.

BUT...since Lee came out with their Liquid Alox I have never used crayons. The Liquid Alox is much easier to
use and a much better lubricant.

After Col. E.H. Harrison did all his testing for the NRA was when Alox came into use. Usually found in a
combination with beeswax, Alox actually is the name of a company in New York that produced lubricating
substances and corrosion preventatives. In the 1970s there were more than 2000 formulations of "alox" lube.
Col. Harrison ran thousands of tests with different combinations and eventually found that Alox 2138F when
mixed with equal parts of pure yellow beeswax produced the best bullet lubricant until that time. This is still the
basic formula for all "alox" bullet lubes.

Until the advent of LBT Blue (no longer available) and Apache Blue (available from The Hanned Line) cast
bullet shooters either used some Alox-type lube or made their own. Some of the dedicated cast bullet target
shooters have their own secret formula's that they swear by and guard with great diligence lest a competitor get
hold of it.

I have used Apache Blue for years now...in rifles and handguns... and I will not use any other lube. I am used to
it and so are the barrels in my guns. Oh, I shoot some other lubes if I get bullets from a commercial caster... but
for the most part I only use the Apache Blue. This is my commercial endorsement of it. And yes, Paco gave me
some for free... as a "going away" present when I moved from Arizona to Missouri in 1989. He gave me
several large cans of it and I still have one left. I am glad to see it is in production again. I only have enough left
to last me about 6 years!!

webmaster

Lew- I know of some CB Benchrest Rifle Shooters who claim Thompson's Blue Angle is the best now for shooting small groups. What ever shoots best with your rifle and load!!! - Lew

30 November 2003, 11:04

grumble

I object to the title of this thread, dj. Asking dumb questions is MY job.

Stay off my turf in the future, please.

And, if you want to ask a dumb question, you should make it dumb, not a well-thought-out question like this one. Harrumph.

30 November 2003, 11:27

beagle

LeftoverDJ....GC'd bullets work well but they do lay down some copper fouling.

It's not much but I've helped Petey lap a couple of barrels that had never had any jacketed stuff through them and they still produced green patches with Shooter's Choice after we let it set a while.

I'd also be willing to bet if you sectioned a Lee nose first sizer lengthwise, you'd see copper fouling if it was used for GCs.

As has been pointed out below. I think the combination of the short area of copper and the close proximity of lube combined with the sealing of the bore prevents much build up./beagle

30 November 2003, 13:17

NotRicochet

Hmmm, maybe instead of all this moly-coating stuff we who sometimes shoot j*ck*t*d bullets should try sloshing them around in Liquid Earwax.

30 November 2003, 13:51

Leftoverdj

quote:
Originally posted by lewisgoldstein:

BULLET LUBES (Article from my archives)

by Jim Taylor

LEAD BULLETS

A man once brought Dad a pistol and
asked him if he could clean it. It was an H&R .22 revolver. The bore was so leaded that it would not allow a
.22 caliber brush into it. The guy had been shooting it that way for some time. He said it was hard to hit
anything with it and figured maybe it needed cleaned.

Dad and I found some of the bullets that had been fired from this gun. They were squeezed down to about 15
caliber and were real long and skinny. Dad got the gun clean in about 10 minutes. His secret involved using a
torch... after the owner had gone home.

When I was smithing, a fellow brought in a cheap POS import .357 (Arminus?) in about that condition. He had been shooting full house swaged factory loads though it and the grooves were filled and the lands covered. I put a .50 BMG brush through it with a brass rod and a mallet. Half a dozen passes got the gross leading out and Leadaway patches did the rest.

Barrel to cylinder gap and headspace were both within specs, so I shot it.

Curiously, test firing showed that it would handle hard cast hot .38 Special loads without leading and was reasonably accurate.