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Hey Forrest--- Tuning a LR 45/70 load 4759
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I'm curious as to how much tinkering you've done with 4759 in regards to getting low ES's in the big bores like 45/70.

I've done some clocking back when the the spreads where pretty decent in the mid 20's. But I've been refining my load for the Buff Classic-- partial sizing and inside neck polishing for bullet release, lube viscosity, bullet dia and uniformity of hardness, seating runout [going to attempt to tweak my Lee seater], bullet engagement to the leade-- etc. You know the drill.

I'm considering some methods to hold the chg to the primer more uniformly. For those that don't know, I've developed a filler but don't want to go that direction just yet. What do you think? TIA.

[ 12-24-2002, 22:02: Message edited by: aladin ]
 
Posts: 1529 | Location: Central Wisconsin | Registered: 01 March 2001Reply With Quote
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Aladin,
 
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Aladin,
YOU'RE KILLIN' ME!! You've developed a new filler an' you ain't talkin!? You're KILLIN' me!

OK, what's it gonna cost me? I gotta house, a pickup, a woodworking shop fulla tools an' equipment anna' whole mess o' reloadin' stuff.

Name your price. [Roll Eyes]
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Puncher:
Aladin,
YOU'RE KILLIN' ME!! You've developed a new filler an' you ain't talkin!? You're KILLIN' me!

OK, what's it gonna cost me? I gotta house, a pickup, a woodworking shop fulla tools an' equipment anna' whole mess o' reloadin' stuff.

Name your price. [Roll Eyes]

Puncher I've written up Bf or ground bran fiber on the Shooters forum. Lots in the archives on the subject.
 
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Aladin,

Ah yes, the 45/70 with filler and SR4759.

As it happens I have just run off a long series of shots over the chonograph with my favorite load of 21 grains 4759, 1/4 sheet T/P filler, the Inverted Gas Check and my modified "Gunn Long Range" bullet that goes at about 570 grains.

The filler is carefully made up from Charmin "Ultra" (two-ply sheets) as follows: I take a sharp knife and cut the complete roll in half. Each of the 1/2 rolls are unrolled and separated into sheets which are again spilt in two by separating the plys. Each one of these pieces is stuffed into the charged case on top of the powder, naturaly as uniformly as possible.

On top of this I seat a unsized Hornady GC by means of a backed-off case neck expander punch to about 0.060 depth. Then the bullet is seated normally on top of the IGC to correct depth for chambering. Buy careful use of this method excellent accuracy may be aquired for all ranges. Average velocity is 1250 ft/sec. SD goes just a bit higher than I'd like at 7.2

At 1000 yards the bullet prints are quite round even with the bullets being so long. My 45/70 has the 16 inch twist that helps this stability out a lot.

Now, tell us what the new filler idea is!

Good afternoon,
Forrest
 
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FAsmus the filler referenced is just the Bf or ground bran fiber I've used in experiments previouisly. I guess I referenced it cause I figured someone would reply a grits type filler, which I pass on due to water absorbion- and the fact the Bf is quite abit lighter in wt. And it does not melt like some plastic types.

Now I don't use SD's normally, but figure that 7+ of yours makes around a 20's ES like mine. I do not weigh my charges-- have a good measure but might try that option in this hair splitting exercise. Primer pocksets have been worked-- I don't think minor wt differences in cases make any real difference with the amount of room left over the chg. Putting the bullet in the leade I think might negate exacting bullet pull uniformity-- take more steam to move the slug that way-- I dunno.

I fired an ES of 10 albeit for only five rds last spring or so-- not 100% sure but think the powder was 4759. Could have been 2400 also-- will have to look at some paper. Anyways it'll give me something to tinker as winter now has it's grip on Central Wisconsin aka Siberia West..
 
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Aladin,

you say:

The filler referenced is just the Bf or ground bran fiber..

me:

I have not used cerial fillers in the 45/70. My T/P filler has worked so well that I just never looked back. I don't like the way dacron or kapoc smells as it is used by other shooters on the firing line. No big thing, but I'd rather not do that.

you:

Now I don't use SD's normally, but figure that 7+ of yours makes around a 20's ES like mine..

me:

Yup. Pretty close.

you:

I do not weigh my charges-- have a good measure but might try that option in this hair splitting exercise..

me:

Me neither with the exception of the super carefully made up ammunition used for actual record shooting. I don't think it makes much (if any) difference down range but my head feels just a little bit better for doing one more double check.

you:

Primer pockets have been worked-- I don't think minor wt differences in cases make any real difference with the amount of room left over the chg..

me:

I have "match" cases weighed +/- 0.7 grain for record shooting. It is easy to do, so why not? I DO think the difference between WW and R-P cases is great enough that I never mix them, at all.

you:

Putting the bullet in the leade I think might negate exacting bullet pull uniformity-- take more steam to move the slug that way-- I dunno.

me:

I have very good information about this question. For example, the "Gunn" bullet I modified now has a 0.4515 section ahead of the body about 0.200 long. This fully engages the rifling during the chambering of each cartridge and consistent results are seen down range.

However, if I happen to be shooting a lessor grade of bullet than full-on match graded slugs I will sometimes have a bullet turn up a bit undersize; cast too hot. These will give excellent performance when all shot together. If mixed with full size bullets they all impact lower than the ones forced into the chamber by the compound leverage provided by the Ballard action. These results are not seen close up of course. A fellow has to be shooting out there in excess of 600 yards for things to really start showing up.

I cannot tell if this is due to velocity differences or harmonic differences in the barrel. I don't chronograph them all.

I'd enjoy your feed-back on any inverted gas check shooting done with the 45/70. This technique is very useful in the heat of summer shooting and eliminates the need to clean the rifle at all.

Good morning,
Forrest
 
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Hi Forrest: good idea for exchg of info-- I'll run with it..

Forrest: I have "match" cases weighed +/- 0.7 grain for record shooting. It is easy to do, so why not? I DO think the difference between WW and R-P cases is great enough that I never mix them, at all.

A: yeup I've done same and never mix brands as your observation about the Rem vs WW is right on the mark. I have found a good neck tension in my Rem brass per smokeless-- sizing that brass where there's 1.1" of distance between my FL Lee die and that ring. I do wt match my load testing cases too.

Forrest: However, if I happen to be shooting a lessor grade of bullet than full-on match graded slugs I will sometimes have a bullet turn up a bit undersize; cast too hot. These will give excellent performance when all shot together. If mixed with full size bullets they all impact lower than the ones forced into the chamber by the compound leverage provided by the Ballard action. These results are not seen close up of course. A fellow has to be shooting out there in excess of 600 yards for things to really start showing up.

A: again a direct hit on an accuracy item I've found-- I have same with the current group of 125's I'm using otta straight ww alloy. I recently sized a small lot to 4575 to heat treat and found several variations in dia albeit minor. DEFINITELY shows on the paper though for the reasons you stated.

Forrest: I'd enjoy your feed-back on any inverted gas check shooting done with the 45/70. This technique is very useful in the heat of summer shooting and eliminates the need to clean the rifle at all.

A: This is one trick I haven't tried-- my gun never leads a drop and really doesn't need cleaning cept maybe to remove powder residue. I did try this yrs ago with a 30 and like the results but gave it up due to some checks going down the case-- which shouldn't be a concern with straight wall cases. It surely does uniform the muzzle exit I'd think-- and that has to show on paper.

I've tried SW wads [my monicker] which are Saran wrap from Wally World balled up and inserted into the case mouth. They should fit tightly and make a flexible check. NO gas goes by these-- and they also clean as shot. I've only shot them much with Lee molds and haven't formed an opinion to their accuracy potential. Semi PITA to cut and ball the same, but for BLK they wipe the bore each shot taking some stress of the lesser lubes. They'll get a another session when the situation presents itself. I do have to run some of your inverted checks too-- I think that has more potential in terms of ease of loading.

Forrest: I cannot tell if this is due to velocity differences or harmonic differences in the barrel.

A: Barrel harmonics.... and holding that gun the same for each shot.. that's a book length piece almost. My low end pipe needs more exploring there.

And gun has a shallow rifling-- only slightly over 2 thou deep, making a bore dia of 452 for minor engravement. I do think if I got a better fit at chambeing it'd help.

Lube-- a whole game in itself...especially with BLK.

Last thought-- I'm tinkering with my Lee seating die to insure positive alignment/dead on. I rolled a piece of paper and slid it in that die-- the case requiring a seated slug slides in now so nice. Will look for a metal substitute, maybe a pop can wall is thin enough. Then I'm going to work to make some custom seating punches. Accuracy has no limits....no matter the gun's mechanical ability to group...

Regards,
Aladin
 
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Hello Aladin, Good to see some familiar names on what looks to be a good site. I tried to get registered with the msn black powder group and got confirmation by email but they won't let me log in. Will keep trying, I am probably doing something wrong.

The best filler I have found for IMR 4759 in the 45-70 is lots of black powder. About three grains of 4759 over the primer (not legal in most shoots) and then fill with black for just a little compression and seat the bullet, little fouling will be noted with this load and the use of a blow tube will not be necessary even for a long string of shots. Barrel condition will be very uniform. Clean up for your Buff (break open?) is just a couple of wet patches and the usual oil. The smoke that is noted when opening the action is not of much concern. I usually just hold the gun upside down and spray the action with WD40 at the end of the day. If you can't get black in your area that is another story.

Our snow in OK is starting to melt off so may be able to get to the range next week for some more testing of the FN Mauser in 7X57. It is showing real promise.

Bob
 
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Originally posted by aladin:
Hi Forrest: good idea for exchg of info-- I'll run with it..

Forrest: I have "match" cases weighed +/- 0.7 grain for record shooting. It is easy to do, so why not? I DO think the difference between WW and R-P cases is great enough that I never mix them, at all.

A: yeup I've done same and never mix brands as your observation about the Rem vs WW is right on the mark. I have found a good neck tension in my Rem brass per smokeless-- sizing that brass where there's 1.1" of distance between my FL Lee die and that ring. I do wt match my load testing cases too.

Forrest: However, if I happen to be shooting a lessor grade of bullet than full-on match graded slugs I will sometimes have a bullet turn up a bit undersize; cast too hot. These will give excellent performance when all shot together. If mixed with full size bullets they all impact lower than the ones forced into the chamber by the compound leverage provided by the Ballard action. These results are not seen close up of course. A fellow has to be shooting out there in excess of 600 yards for things to really start showing up.

A: again a direct hit on an accuracy item I've found-- I have same with the current group of 125's I'm using otta straight ww alloy. I recently sized a small lot to 4575 to heat treat and found several variations in dia albeit minor. DEFINITELY shows on the paper though for the reasons you stated.

Forrest: I'd enjoy your feed-back on any inverted gas check shooting done with the 45/70. This technique is very useful in the heat of summer shooting and eliminates the need to clean the rifle at all.

A: This is one trick I haven't tried-- my gun never leads a drop and really doesn't need cleaning cept maybe to remove powder residue. I did try this yrs ago with a 30 and like the results but gave it up due to some checks going down the case-- which shouldn't be a concern with straight wall cases. It surely does uniform the muzzle exit I'd think-- and that has to show on paper.

I've tried SW wads [my monicker] which are Saran wrap from Wally World balled up and inserted into the case mouth. They should fit tightly and make a flexible check. NO gas goes by these-- and they also clean as shot. I've only shot them much with Lee molds and haven't formed an opinion to their accuracy potential. Semi PITA to cut and ball the same, but for BLK they wipe the bore each shot taking some stress of the lesser lubes. They'll get a another session when the situation presents itself. I do have to run some of your inverted checks too-- I think that has more potential in terms of ease of loading.

Forrest: I cannot tell if this is due to velocity differences or harmonic differences in the barrel.

A: Barrel harmonics.... and holding that gun the same for each shot.. that's a book length piece almost. My low end pipe needs more exploring there.

And gun has a shallow rifling-- only slightly over 2 thou deep, making a bore dia of 452 for minor engravement. I do think if I got a better fit at chambeing it'd help.

Lube-- a whole game in itself...especially with BLK.

Last thought-- I'm tinkering with my Lee seating die to insure positive alignment/dead on. I rolled a piece of paper and slid it in that die-- the case requiring a seated slug slides in now so nice. Will look for a metal substitute, maybe a pop can wall is thin enough. Then I'm going to work to make some custom seating punches. Accuracy has no limits....no matter the gun's mechanical ability to group...

Regards,
Aladin

 
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Aladin,

First, pardon me for hitting the wrong key (above) I like this "quote" style of posting but I have to be more careful about hitting "enter"!

Forrest: I'd enjoy your feed-back on any inverted gas check shooting done with the 45/70...

A: This is one trick I haven't tried..I've tried SW wads..

Wow! Saran Wrap wads! I don't think I've really even heard of using such stuff for filler..

Do they fragment when the shot is fired? Or melt, or fly out in a melted mass?

The T/P filler comes out as very small fragments, confetti as it were, and I have proven that it acts as an effective gas check in plain base bullet shooting.

The IGC works as well as a conventional check with the additional advantage of scraping the inside wall of the cases clean as it is seated.

The IGC will prevent leading on those days when the barrel is hot just sitting in the sun, let alone doing any firing.

A: Barrel harmonics.... and holding that gun the same for each shot.. that's a book length piece almost..

F: Sure. Harmonics and follow-through as when shooting off the cross-stick rest.

A: And (my) gun has a shallow rifling-- only slightly over 2 thou deep..

F: I have this shallow rifling in my 44/63. It is about 0.0025 deep. This works fine for smokeless. I have doubts about ever shooting black, not that I really miss it anyway.

A: Lube-- a whole game in itself...especially with BLK.

F: Yes. Have you ever used Taruax 250?

A: Last thought-- I'm tinkering with my Lee seating die to insure positive alignment/dead on...

F: There is fellow here in Sheridan who makes 45/70 straight-line seaters. I have one and if there is ever any doubt about getting the bullets into the cases absolutly right-on, this is the answer. He sells them for $65 each last time ti checked. don't bother trying to shim up a regular die, get the real item. (I receive NO comission for these sales!)

I gotta go.

More soon,
Forrest
 
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Forrest I'd encourage you to try the shallow rifled gun with BLK-- it gives me no problem at all shooten the real thing. Some of my most accurate loads have been with 3F at 1100 fps and take your choice of slug.

Haven't even tried a commercial lube yet for BLK-- doubt I will. The BLK has opened a new area for experimentation being the making of lubes. I have a formula that made 10 rds fired as fast as I could aim and shoot-- 75 grs of 2F with Postells, sans any blow tubing that grouped around 3+" at 100 [not my normal load, not suitable for this lot of powder]. The bore wiped clean after that string with only minor fouling at one section down that tube around 10". Muzzle area, breech and the rest went clean...

I think lube for smokeless is a question of just enough.... have you found that?

You said Taurak?? Is that from Neco?

A.
 
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Originally posted by aladin:
Forrest I'd encourage you to try the shallow rifled gun with BLK-- it gives me no problem at all shooten the real thing. Some of my most accurate loads have been with 3F at 1100 fps and take your choice of slug.

Haven't even tried a commercial lube yet for BLK-- doubt I will. The BLK has opened a new area for experimentation being the making of lubes. I have a formula that made 10 rds fired as fast as I could aim and shoot-- 75 grs of 2F with Postells, sans any blow tubing that grouped around 3+" at 100 [not my normal load, not suitable for this lot of powder]. The bore wiped clean after that string with only minor fouling at one section down that tube around 10". Muzzle area, breech and the rest went clean...

I think lube for smokeless is a question of just enough.... have you found that?

You said Taruax 250 ?? Is that from Neco?

I enjoy messing with this seater... I think I can refine it.

A.

You can see I hit the wrong key too.....

[ 12-27-2002, 03:11: Message edited by: aladin ]
 
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Aladin,

you say:

I'd encourage you to try the shallow rifled gun with BLK..

F: Well, I've thought over the use of black for some time. Being on the line at Quigley has taught me that the stuff will shoot well enough to win, no problem. But, I'm lazy. It isn't the rifle cleaning so much, I think I could tollerate that easily enough, its the case cleaning/treatment that I know would get to me so I just haven't gotten into it.

The conventional cast bullet loads I shoot allow me to shoot with vitually NO cleaning at all for indefinite periods of time or numbers of shots fired.

A: I think lube for smokeless is a question of just enough.... have you found that?

F: Yes. I use real simple lube procedures, sticking with Javelina as inexpensive, reliable and available.

A: You said Taurak?? Is that from Neco?

F: I call it Taurax 250. It has been around since I first went to a Coors Scheutzenfest back in the 80s and met Merril Martin who had a pickup full of the stuff.

I don't know anything about Neco.. a supply company?

It has its uses. Some shooters think that nothing else need apply. Ever used any?

Good morning,
Forrest
 
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Forrest my experience with that Neco lubes hasn't been good-- in high velocity 06 it just will not group comparable to other lubes. I did try the stuff with BLK once per Neco's recommender, but that was a mess...

That shallow rifling of mine-- I'm getting too much oval at 300 with 125's. Shouldn't be-- that slug should be fine in a 20 twist. Course alot goes into stability more than simple twist to bullet relationship- hardness to bullet dia and lube type I think play major roles. Seem to remember yesterday the unsized slugs at .4585 went about round vs the 4575's [my groove is 4562]. Still at those relatively low speeds and chamber pressures I don't think that should be. Have a forming theory about 'lube tensile strength', which I don't lay off all the blame on this oval'n. Basically I think lubes with enough resistance to form a thicker wall between barrel and slug promote slugging and/or decrease the slug's ability to stay put going down the tube. Any input? A.

Underline the word 'forming'-- just considering it..

[ 12-28-2002, 21:34: Message edited by: aladin ]
 
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Aladin,

you say:

My experience with that Neco lubes hasn't been good..

F: Again, I don't know anything about this Neco outfit. Is this Taurax 250, at all?

A: That shallow rifling of mine-- I'm getting too much oval at 300 with 125's..

F: Too much instability at 300 yards with what? Sure you arn't shooting 125 grain bullets in the 45/70!

The current thinking about stabilty is that a long range 45 caliber rifle should have at LEAST an 18 inch rate, but 16 is much better. My rather extensive shooting, testing for sability in the 40/65, has given me some ideas about what I have to do to keep bullets point-first at long range.

I have never experimented with bullet hardness or any affect lube might have on the question of stability. Tell me: How could simple differences in hardness or lube change the basic stability of a bullet in flight?

I have ideas about the way certain bullet shapes affect stabilty one way or the other and have the targets to illistrate some of these things.

One of the main things I keep in mind is the way the bullets print at 500 and 1000 yards. If they are not wobbling more than about 2 degrees things may be considered to be going quite well!

All around I count on the Greenhill formula, as modified by the actual velosity used as the "constant" to give me serious pointers about how stable a given combination will be before actual shooting to prove the load.

Good afternoon,
Forrest
 
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"I have never experimented with bullet hardness or any affect lube might have on the question of stability. Tell me: How could simple differences in hardness or lube change the basic stability of a bullet in flight?"

Forrest the barrel and how it grips the slug determine spin rates to say the obvious. Consider the case of a barrel as you increase the speeds while leaving the slug dia the same. For instance, 309 dia in an 06. When the speed gets to a point where the bullet starts to slug [fail to hold the rifling] the groups can 'wander' to say the least. My gun will group with hard slugs at high speed [06] with the dia 3095-310. Run some 3090's and below in dia-- and they won't hit anything.

Now in my shallow rifled 45/70 I think I'm seeing a similar effect especially in colder weather. Slugs a thou over groove are making oval holes-- the UN-sized slugs yesterday made for all intensive purposes round holes-- at least comparing to the 4575's [1 thou over] at 300.

I have a target picture of a comparison between two lubes-- all other factors the same. The difference in those groups is 3x. If you furnish an e or way to send a Jpeg to you I'll send you a copy. Same for anyone else desiring one.

125's = 457125 the 500 gr Goverment bullet. Sorry about the verbal shorthand.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by aladin:
"I have never experimented with bullet hardness or any affect lube might have on the question of stability. Tell me: How could simple differences in hardness or lube change the basic stability of a bullet in flight?"

Forrest the barrel and how it grips the slug determine spin rates to say the obvious. Consider the case of a barrel as you increase the speeds while leaving the slug dia the same. For instance, 309 dia in an 06. When the speed gets to a point where the bullet starts to slug [fail to hold the rifling] the groups can 'wander' to say the least. My gun will group with hard slugs at high speed [06] with the dia 3095-310. Run some 3090's and below in dia-- and they won't hit anything.

Now in my shallow rifled 45/70 I think I'm seeing a similar effect especially in colder weather. Slugs a thou over groove are making oval holes-- the UN-sized slugs yesterday made for all intensive purposes round holes-- at least comparing to the 4575's [1 thou over] at 300.

I have a target picture of a comparison between two lubes-- all other factors the same. The difference in those groups is 3x. If you furnish an e or way to send a Jpeg to you I'll send you a copy. Same for anyone else desiring one.

125's = 457125 the 500 gr Goverment bullet. Sorry about the verbal shorthand.

Forgot-- how do you determine 2 degrees of wobble?
 
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Aladin,

I ask:

Tell me: How could simple differences in hardness or lube change the basic stability of a bullet in flight?"

A: My gun will group with hard slugs at high speed [06] with the dia 3095-310. Run some 3090's and below in dia-- and they won't hit anything.

F: Humm.. To me this sounds more like undersize bullets in the barrel than a stability question.

A: Now, in my shallow rifled 45/70 I think I'm seeing a similar effect especially in colder weather. Slugs a thou over groove are making oval holes-- the UN-sized slugs yesterday made for all intensive purposes round holes-- at least comparing to the 4575's [1 thou over] at 300.

F: You didn't say how large the as-cast bullets were in this shooting: 0.459? Also of interest in this accuracy/stability question is the possible effect of fillers and card wads (if used). These may potentially cause erratic exit of bullets from the muzzle.

Also, the load itself may be suspect: The loss of accuracy, showing up as out-of-round holes, may be caused by something else than instability..

The question of lube performance in cold weather is something I've encountered as well. Depending on the lube used things can really get quite different as temperatures decrease. Now, I shoot mainly the 50/50 alox lube to keep my life as simple as possible. This type lube showes rather marked decrease in performance (protection) as the temperature of the ammunition goes below freezing. It gives all the signs of "lube failure"; showing lead wash near the muzzle and, if continued, accuracy falls off.

I have not looked closely at the holes aquired during this sort of shooting mainly because I just quit going shooting when the temperatures go below 20 degrees or so. Not that it is too cold to shoot at 20 or less, it isn't, but I refuse to make the effort needed to work up loads for specific temperatures!

A: I have a target picture of a comparison between two lubes-- all other factors the same..

F: I'm sure you see the way I'm headed: I'm not convinced that you're looking at perfomance changes due to loss of stability. I think other differences due to changes in internal balistics is the place to look.

The aerodynamic and gyroscopic factors associated with bullets in flight shouldn't be affected by anything that happens within the barrel (other than spin itself).

The amount of yaw may be measured (estimated really) by knowing that a 1 degree angle becomes 0.017" difference at one inch. Thus, a bullet one inch long printing out-of-round by 0.034 is showing one degree of yaw. This is an estimate only because bullets do not have square corners and measuring the holes becomes somewhat uncertain.

Good evening,
Forrest
 
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Forrest the comparison target is 06 and shows how JUST changing the lube greatly affects accuracy. The only thing chg'd was lube..

The size increase per bullet dia appears to allow that barrel to hold the bullet more securely, ie- less oval printout. Speaking of the 45/70.

The failure of 309 bullets to stabilize in a 3080 bore illustrates a classic case of slugging, the failure of the bullet to hold the rifling in the barrel due to excess speed and not enough bearing surface strength to hold. Going to a 310 slug simply strenghens that bearing surface and allows the bullet to hold. Same load-- same everything, I never take anything otta context.

I DO suspect that the lube CAN promote slugging in some instances where bearing surface strength/land height is not sufficent to hold the bullet. I am talking of what I would call strong lubes-- with a body and lube ability to withstand great pressures. I emphasize this thinking is just formulating.

The effect of slugging destabilizes the bullet. As the bullet increases in speed going down the tube, that surface fails to hold-- does not have spin applied to that slug, and once exits has insufficent stability to fly correctly.

For sure I do not think these events explain all cases of instability in these BP guns and loads. I think the shallow rifling might facilitate this. Consider this-- the 2 thou land height has around half the driving side total area of a normal land 4 thou in height. Less grip might mean slugging under less trying circumstances than one having twice the land height..

Ya need to see the pic.
 
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Aladin,

A: The size increase per bullet dia appears to allow that barrel to hold the bullet more securely, ie- less oval printout..

F: This idea leads me to ask: have you checked actual spent bullets to see if they are different diameters after firing when started out at different sizes?

Actual measurement of my spent bullets fired over full power loads indicates that they all wind up the same size: The size of the barrel itself less about 0.001 which is accounted for by the necessary boundary of lube between bore and bullet. It doesn't matter if the bullets start hard, soft, on-size or oversize: they all come out the end the same size.

Since all the bullets exit at same size I can only conclude that they are held equally securely by the rifling throughout their travel down the bore.

Even further, I have some molds that produce undersize bullets; some bullets noses are 0.003 or 0.004 smaller than the bore size in some cases. These noses, inspected after firing over full power loads, are found to have been bumped up large enough that the formerly undersize noses are engraved by the rifling. They bumped up as much as 0.005 or 0.006 in some cases! Sure. I shoot fairly soft alloy and never heat-treat bullets anymore but this is a serious change to be going on during firing! In some bullets, produced by marginal molds, even the bullet bodies are undersize. And, yes, they too bump-up to fill the barrel.

A: The failure of 309 bullets to stabilize in a 3080 bore illustrates a classic case of slugging, the failure of the bullet to hold the rifling in the barrel due to excess speed and not enough bearing surface strength to hold..

F: I have inspected spent bullets carefully for this "slugging" or stripping of the rifling during firing.

In some revolver loads some extra wide engravement is almost always visible because of the long jump each bullet takes between the cylinder and barrel. In these cases I have never found the extra wide rifling engravements to extend all the way back to the heel of the bullet.

In shooting the 44 and 45 caliber rifles I have noted some extra wide rifling engravement at the beginning of some bullet's full diameter portion. This shows where the bullet inertia has resisted the spin of the rifling for a moment during the firing sequence. I have never seen this slight widening of engravement to extend very far back on the bullet at all.

All this is to be considered by understanding that I virtually never shoot anything faster than 2000 ft/sec and almost always less than 1400, preferring things in the range of 1250 for best performance and accuracy over long ranges.

Have you seen this actual slugging or stripping of the rifling on bullets recovered from full power tests?

A: For sure I do not think these events explain all cases of instability in these BP guns and loads. I think the shallow rifling might facilitate this. Consider this-- the 2 thou land height has around half the driving side total area of a normal land 4 thou in height. Less grip might mean slugging under less trying circumstances than one having twice the land height..

F: I see the shallow rifling as a two sided problem where black powder is concerned. I don't think bullets fired in shallow groove rifles will receive any less spin because they're being spun by less of a rifling engagement. Rather, I think the question of fouling filling the shallow grooves and preventing the rifling from doing its job could be troublesome. Then again, the shallow grooves would make cleaning of the barrel a good deal easier! Perhaps with a single pass of the cleaning rod for example!

Good evening,
Forrest
 
Posts: 246 | Location: Northern Wyoming | Registered: 21 December 2002Reply With Quote
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Aladin,

Are you there?

Good evening,
Forrest
 
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Sure am Forrest.

I'm not having real fouling trouble with BLK-- one pass with an undersized brush wrapped with toweling and we're clean. Nothing hard or stubborn clinging. The only time I fouled out was using a hard lube formula sent to me as a sample.

I doubt you'd see the 'fanning' pattern of the rifling on a bullet all the way back-- I believe this is what happens when you shoot those 30's undersized I alluded to previously. I have wanted to shoot some bullets into water for some time, but haven't the setup.

I'd agree about the spin imparted by shallow rifled tubes-- it should be the same IF it's holding. But in another vein, their is less grip surface.

The 500 gr Gov bullet is what I'm shooting now- 457125. Nose fit is 4 thou undersized. This well might be the problem, but about all my holes at 300 now are oval. Barrel wear ?-- I dunno.. I think I need to take the shovel to the range and see if I can find a few samples for a good looksee on how their engraving.

I thinking on lube-- it's viscosity and strength comes primarily from high velocity 06 shooting [2400-2750]-- I about wore one Hart out on my 700. Best groups come from using just enough-- found only by trial and error. The heavy bodied lubes in excess amounts cause the 'lube purge' flyers-- and often lube is seen on the target. And that amount varies between lube types. Accurate shooten is a game of the SAME for each shot-- and keeping the lube action within limits during varying heat ranges etc is a balancing act.
 
Posts: 1529 | Location: Central Wisconsin | Registered: 01 March 2001Reply With Quote
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Aladin,

Good to see your post.

A: I'm not having real fouling trouble with BLK-- one pass with an undersized brush wrapped with toweling and we're clean. Nothing hard or stubborn clinging..

F: I have contact with some of the blackpowder fellows out here. They write me saying that cleaning a black powder rifle is, as you say, no problem. I'll take that on faith. My troubles would center around the proper care and cleaning of cases when shooting black.

One of my long-standing points in the cast bullet game is that I believe that rifles used for shooting "conventional" cast bullet combinations don't need cleaning AT ALL, provided only that the rifles are used regularly. I've run test strings of over 1000 rounds over months of shooting: More than enough to satisfy myself that this is so.

A: I have wanted to shoot some bullets into water for some time, but haven't the setup.

F: For an absolutely damage free recovery medium you can't beat snow. During the winter suitably marked bullets are fired into the local big drifts, recovered and identified when the drift melts.

A: The 500 gr Gov bullet is what I'm shooting now-457125. Nose fit is 4 thou undersized. This well might be the problem..

F: I have Lyman's new production 457132 "Postell" in my mold box, purchased last year. It also has a 0.004 undersize nose. This is the bullet I had in mind when I mentioned that when fired over the typical 21 grains 4759 and recovered it shows engravement on the noses, having bumped up some 0.005 or more. I have noted this in many of the recovered 44 and 45 caliber bullets I use.

There is much to say about fitting the bullet to the barrel in the first place as per accuracy but so far as obduration goes they bump up to fill all available space during firing.

A: But about all my holes at 300 now are oval. Barrel wear ?-- I dunno..

F: How much oval? What twist does your rifle have in it anyway? Like I said before 18 is good but 16 is better. Anything over 20 is marginal..

What do the holes look like at 500 m or further?

A: In thinking on lube-- it's viscosity and strength comes primarily from high velocity 06 shooting [2400-2750]..

F: Ah yes. I thought you might be used to pressing the limits of velocity in the small bore 30's. Things are different when shooting the 44s and 45s.

A: I about wore one Hart out on my 700. Best groups come from using just enough-- found only by trial and error. The heavy-bodied lubes in excess amounts cause the 'lube purge' flyers..

F: The lube-purge factor (so far as I know) is virtually unknown in the type shooting I do and see done with the buffalo rifles. I have always felt that the furthest any lube should go down range is about the same distance as the powder smoke from the muzzle blast does.

I have a 40/65 barrel with well over 10,000 rounds through it on its first action (Ballard) and now it is in steady use on the M1895 Marlin. No sign of wearing out at all.

In fact, I may take the M1895 to this year's Quigley, just for fun. Then shoot the star of my show; the FBW in 44/63 Ballard, in other long range matches around this area.

Good afternoon,
Forrest
 
Posts: 246 | Location: Northern Wyoming | Registered: 21 December 2002Reply With Quote
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Aladin, Your oval shaped holes at 300 yards may well be from the bullet going from super to sub sonic. I had that trouble with a Snover 410 grain and 58 grains of Goex Cartridge. Don't remember the velocity it shot but it was good at 200 meters, 380 meters and 500 meters but would miss a lot at 300 meters. Switched to a RCBS 350 grain bullet with the same powder charge and it is good from 200 meters through 380 meters and I am not sure it wouldn't shoot rams at 500 meters but I save them for the Paul Jones Creedmore. What happens is the bullet is going unstable between the targets and then "goes to sleep" at the needed range.

Case cleaning with black powder is more work than cleaning the gun. I don't clean cases until after the match. They are decapped and dropped into warm soapy water and shaken up good. Then each case is given a swab with a bottle brush and dropped into another bottle of soapy water and allowed to soak as the others are processed. Then they are all rinsed in fresh water and transported home. At home I drain them and throw them into the tumbler wet. After a couple hours in the tumbler they come out bright and clean. The primer pockets will still have to be cleaned out and the interior wiped out to make sure tumbler medium is removed. Regards, Bob
 
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Blackknight I've considered that element, but the 500 gr shows a twist of 26-27 as being fine per Wingryo. I know stability factors vary as per who ya talk to, but it's my understanding that slug was designed for the 22" trapdoor. The Postell's oval about the same, maybe less.

Forrest I use ww alloy straight which is age hardened-- might be making 14 bhn. Mike Lewis the smith from Denver sent me some pics of obturation which he states is the same until you get past 10/1 alloy or 11.5 bhn with BLK I assumed [snow recovered]. He stated the Lyman #2 alloy [15 bhn] slugs didn't show the nose obturation to the extent as the softer alloys. Now it could be my slugs are hard enough to resist full nose engagement and cause some misalignment... dunno, but that could be checked by anneaning a group of them to see if that helps accuracy.

I did go back and load my accuracy load-- 3F at 1095 fps just for a looksee.

I do agree on the lube getting off the slug at exit. Taurak does not do this- you can almost always see the brown residue on target holes. And for cleaning low speed tubes there's really no use especially using 4759.

One thought on BLK cleaning of cases. I take a drill bit and go back thru those flash holes after their dry-- gets that residue clinging to the brass in the hole. I have since gone to a newsprint wad over the flash hole and like the results. At least then I know the ignition sequence is the same down at the primer.

And I did taper size a small group of 125's for the next trip. DW Stilles is high on that Lyman tapered Mathews mold-- and I've seen tapered slugs work great in my 06 with PB's. So I figured it's worth a shot.
 
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Aladin,

A: I use ww alloy straight which is age hardened-- might be making 14 bhn..

F: I use a simular alloy and aging technique.

I DO wonder what twist your rifle has. By reading between the lines I think you must be contending with the old 22 inch rate.

Sure. I know this was the standard rate for Trapdoor Sprinfields for the 500 grain bullet, shooting black.

I also know that the Creedmore boys used special custom barrels with much faster twists in them. I have heard they used things as fast as a 14 inch twist. I think Winchester currently uses this rate in their M70 458 WM.

In my experimentation with stability I have found that a fellow NEEDS to spin up the bullets a good deal faster than the "standard" 22 inch rate in 44 and 45, and when a fellow starts thinking about a long range 40 caliber I'd go right to a 14 inch twist!

I am not convinced at all about the so called "over stabilizing" of bullets in flight, certainly not in the type shooting I do and see others doing with the buffalo rifles. The twists specified by the various on-line computation sites are good for guidelines but there is nothing like actual bullet prints at different distances!

A: One thought on BLK cleaning of cases. I take a drill bit and go back thru those flash holes after they're dry..

F: The case cleaning procedures from Blackkinght sound just as terrible as I have seen other blackpowder shooters doing on the firing line: No thanks!

Good morning,
Forrest
 
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Forrest it's a 20 twist-- that's the head scratchin' issue. Gonna shovel some out next trip for a looksee.

I'm from the over-stabilize school. All the BR boys run the 6PPC right on the edge for the most part-- some even going to 15 twist tubes with stability factors of 1.2 ish [shooten the lite 6mm slugs]. The whole fly in the ointment for cast is the groove sided slugs and the lube shedding/not shedding-- AND the reduced speeds at range. I found with the 309329 sharp pointed spitzer once she slows down to almost sound the BC appears to go south fast. I would like to shoot this slug thru two chrono's simultaneously to actually pin the BC down at 300 and 600 yds.
 
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Alladin,

A: I'm from the over-stabilize school. All the BR boys run the 6PPC right on the edge for the most part..

F: Yes, I know the fellows shooting high velocity jacketed DO get the amazing groups they do with slow twists.

However, as you mention, things are not directly comparable to the subsonic grease-grooved relatively blunt nosed bullets used for long range shooting with the 45s.

I sometimes wonder how the fast 6mm pills would perform if fired at extended ranges..

The question of "trans-sonic" velocities, as Blackknight mentioned, are important for the whole stability question. One of the contributing reasons the fellows shooting black do so well is that they begin at subsonic speeds; no transitional speeds for them at all.

I, like many others who shoot smokeless, try to develop loads that perform well as close to the speed of sound as possible so that the time each bullet spends supersonic is as small as possible. The rule here is that unless you can keep the bullets going supersonic all the way to the target (impossible with the 45/70) you're far better off to shoot them slow.

I have seen targets that show excellent accuracy at closer distances. Then, as the bullets slow up, the groups go bananas. That distance (whatever it may turn out to be) is where they're transitioning the speed of sound, where drag is greatest and stability reduced to its lowest level.

Good afternoon,
Forrest
 
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I should have mentioned the 308329 I referred to shows no stability problem starting at 1740 fps going to 600 yds at around 1040's. It might in fact arrive slower than that. The LBT spitzer I shoot is more accurate @ 600 as starting velocity is around 2000 fps. Yet the 329 does well.

If you run the Wingryo the stability factor does make a sharp reduction going thru the sound barrier but does come back after that transition. In the case of PPC's shot at distance otta 14 twist's-- I think the deciding factor is what the bullet requires for stability going transonic, and 14 might not be enough.

There is NO doubt that long range shooten sez alot more about a load and bullet design than plinkin' in close..
 
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The shovel tells the story.. those 457125 are indeed slugging. The engravement is two land width's wide.

Those taper sized 125's did make 4.8" at 300 today though, not world beat'n but not bad. Course they're oval holes....

Load is 24.5 grs of 4759 with 210's in Rem brass at 2.86" ww alloy aged.

'Pears this tube is toast.
 
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Aladin,

A: The shovel tells the story.. those 457125 are indeed slugging. The engravement is two land width's wide.

F: Wow! That is fast research! And of course it is always nice to have experiments verified by other shooters.

A: Those taper sized 125's did make 4.8" at 300 today though, not world beat'n but not bad..

F: Sure. That IS good shooting; plenty good enough for the Long Range matches as we shoot out here in Wyoming and Montana.

Critical items necessary in the long range game don't necessarily include the ability of any certain load to shoot into one hole at 100 yards. What counts for more is the low SD or ES of the load and bullet stability at extended ranges. I and the men I shoot with here in Sheridan generally show up in the first five of the long range matches and none of us shoot loads that stay consistently under about 1 1/2 MOA.

You see, the ultimate accuracy of a combination at short range goes right out the window when condition is moving your shots as much as 8 or 10 feet at the target: You need to settle on a good predictable load and then go shoot it a few thousand rounds over the distance to see what happens in as many "conditions" as possible.

Taking it from another perspective, all targets used in the "Quigley" type matches are in the nieborhood of 4" across. That is, if your load shoots into 2" reliably, you're "in" every shot!

Our "tie breaker" target at 834 yards is a 24 inch diamond. This target is hard to see through the sights, but quite doable with hard holding and gentle touch on the trigger.

Certain death for the load is unpredictable High/Low velocity problems; a man can allow for the condition sure enough, but a high/low problem just BETTER be associated with wind or light, NOT the load or you're sunk.

A: Course they're oval holes....

F: Print the load at 500 m or even further if possible before you scrap out the barrel.

I have seen many, many bullets go down range, flickering as they go, yawing along until hitting the target with surprizing regularity! Remember they may yaw as much as 2 degrees and still shoot very well.

A: Load is 24.5 grs of 4759 with 210's in Rem brass at 2.86" ww alloy aged.

F: You have clocked this load haven't you? I bet it is going around 1400 or so which should provide plenty enough bullet stability in flight. You will loose a certain amount of performance in the wind due to shooting faster than is considered ideal but what is good is what works in your rifle. I did a LOT of shooting with the 40/65 at 1450 or so as I attempted to keep my bullets point-on, starting with a slow twist.

Good morning,
Forrest
 
Posts: 246 | Location: Northern Wyoming | Registered: 21 December 2002Reply With Quote
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Forrest I don't think it makes 1400. Honestly I don't know if I've clocked it at 24.5 grs.

Gonna oil this one up and think on it. It's a Buff Classic and replacement barrels are cheap but I'd not waste the $ on one.

These are the options:

Send the receiver back and get a 38/55 fitted which is 28". Shoot it or send that one out to Krieger or Badger for a rebore to 45. The twist is too slow for LR in the H&R barrel at 18".

Just buy a 45 quality tube and have it fitted to the existing shank-- using a match chamer.

Dump the gun on some gun store for something that interests me.

Have the existing barrel bored 458x466-- a rechamber might not even to necessary with the normal clearance in factory chambers. Need custom mold then. This idea a reach admittedly.. this barrel is too slim actually in terms of heat sinking ability and stiffness.

I might price a rebore from Badger... for their 38/55 barrel.
 
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Aladin,

A: I don't think it makes 1400. Honestly I don't know if I've clocked it at 24.5 grs.

Gonna oil this one up and think on it..

F: Roger all your alternatives. Don't forget the 40/65!

I have just returned from the hilltop range, shooting the typical 100 rounds, this time of 40/65 from the M1895 Marlin.

The lever rifle is sure lots harder to shoot at distance than the made-for-the-game singleshots. The sights although good are clumsy compared to the good souel sights on the 44/63 or the 45/70. The gunsmith who did the rebarreling for me (years ago) didn't pay close enough attention to cutting the front sight dovetail and it is just a little bit off-level as the front sight is viewed during shooting. You'd never notice it (I didn't) until the hunting front was replaced by a good wide blade installed in the newly attached Lyman 17A..

This is the same 40 caliber barrel I once had the Ballard action. I experimented with it for years, trying various designs and weights of bullet (each mold a new idea) in search of those nice round holes we so dearly love to see. I learned a good deal, then rebarreled the Ballard to 16 twist 45/70!

The 40 caliber take-oof went onto a M1895 Ijst happened to have in need of a suitable new hunting style barrel. The 40 is back in action at long range kind of by accident. I just deceided to try it out at long range one day with the high speed hunting load. It did so well that one thing led to another, like sights, new bullet molds and lever rifle techniques.

I may just shoot it in one of the coming Long Range matches this summer in "Lever" class. It really does well when fed the SAECO #640. (Single load only) But has the troubles all lever rifles have in that now and then it'll toss the uncalled high/low flyer due to having too much junk hanging under the barrel. Not too bad though and I've learned a few things about keeping the magazine, forend and hangers all tuned up almost every shot.

A: It's a Buff Classic..

F: I don't know what a "Buff Classic" is, at all.

Good afternoon,
Forrest
 
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Forrest the Buff Classic is the single shot made by H&R.
 
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