Lar, first you got to work out your wildcat case & bullet before you go searching a barrel.



I assume you are starting from a .248 Winchester again? Using a .44 slug you can actually really have a shoulder, enough to head-space off of especially if you run the front shoulder diameter at .490" amd the back end of the case at .500" (.248 std) for .010" worth of pull taper on the Ackley-style fat straight main body.



0.490"-0.453" = 0.047/2 = 0.023" shoulder per side



That's enough to stop a case and give you good headspacing if the shoulder angle is nice and sharp. 2.170"+.800 = 2.970" OAL so it will fit inside a mauser box magazine maybe even with enough room to feed OK up through the mauser feed rail system after a little filing/grinding.



Lar, are you up for a wildcat reamer? Same reamer you dream of for your .248 Winchester case can "long chamber" me a chamber for a ballooned-out 30-06 case (same case neck geometry applies).



My proposed 30-06 based short chambered case will be a complete non-standard wildcat of course, but that's the miracle of wildcats -- I can neck size the cases with my .44 magnum carbide dies and I can figure out something to seat the bullets with by opening up a std LEE seating die (of some variety) as they seat off the cone-centering action in the top seating punch anyway.



How long of a mauser barrel length are you after? I suppose you realize we are not limited to either .444 case volumes or .444 pressure limits in our wildcatted mausers, right? We could go fat and high, up to 65,000 psi if we were throughly nuts enough to do it.



We can cook up something to make 35 Whelen people turn pea green with recoil envy if we actually wanted to ....



(I'm not trying to go there, I simply can't take that level of recoil. A ballooned-out 30-06 based wildcat loaded with 50 BMG powder is plenty enough for me, thanks)



Oldfeller

Oldfeller, the slowest twist out there would be NEF's 1 in 38 and no it would never stabilaize a 400 grainer, it will only stabilize a couple of 300's. I imagine some older Marlin or perhaps Winchester levers could have this twist as well. I do not know what twist Ruger used the old 44 carbine, but this twist cam about because it was all that was needed for a 240-270 grain bullet or a length of .85". I suspect that there has never been a revolver made with slower than 1 in 20.

I'm not positive, but I believe the Ruger .44 Magnum carbine had a 1:38" twist. I know that's what my 1970 Marlin 1894 .44 Mag has.

Oldfeller, the 284 case was a thought along the lines of the 45 acp mauser conversions, but going with a .458 instead. I didn't think that the 308 case would work very well, so I thought the 284 would have better dimension. I'm haveing a hard time seeing how a 308 case would work very well with the body blown out larger than the base. I'm thinking that you could have some casehead seperation problems. I could see a long version of the 44 Auto Mag though. Wether on the 308 or 06 case. As long as it would headspace on the case mouth. If your thinking about really turning up the volume, then why not start with a RUM case, cut it to 06 length and neck down for 44cal. Then you could have a larger sholder, more case capacity. The cases wouldn't be as cheap as mil surplus 7.62, but they aren't bad compared to others. You would have to open up the bolt face though.

When you think you might be ready, then send me a sketch and I'll see what I can do. You will be responsible for checking dimensions and quality before you use it as I'm still learning here. I would probably make it in 2 or 3 different reamers, body, neck and throat with floating pilots. When I tried to make it all on one for the 8mm maximized 06 then I got lots of warpage. When I did the 30 erin, I didn't get any warping from the reamers being the same dimensions. The reamer would have 4 flutes on it. Unless I can make my flute cutter out of something that will stay sharp cutting O-1.

Ballooning the 30-06 case is an old art form, that is how the original wildcat versions of the rebated rim cases got created as well as all of the expanded Ackley body "improved" wildcat cases you have ever seen listed anywhere.



And yes, when they fail they tend to crack open at the edge of the annealed zone (caused by case tension separation) - which is why you run the annealed zone back up the case some (about half way) to put the changeover point up into some good wall thickness and you don't instantly quench that change-over point either -- you want a nice gradient on that major brass hardness change.



As you blow the cases out into full form (slowly over time preferably on these low pressure cast cases) there is some stretching moment to the brass's expansion movement and you can lose some cases due to case wall separation. Having a relatively long annealed wall section gives you something to draw from on the case stretch thing and you are not trying to do it "all at once" which would cause a higher case failure rate.



I got lots of 30-06 cases though. I can stand losing a few. You can see case wall separation coming on a cleaned case and you can easily feel it inside the case with a bent-tip steel pick well before it becomes a separation.



Ok, on this 360 grain bullet we are really talking two separate and distinct uses for the same 1.000" long .44 caliber bullet now. A .44 Magnum whisper/harumph bullet and a full patch wildcat bullet that fits inside a ballooned-out 30-06 case inside a standard mauser magazine.



And that proposed 360 grain high speed wildcat round becomes more and more practical the more I gander at these 30-06 cases and that huge 1.000" long bullet -- it is going to kick like the absolute dickens in full-bore loads though.



=========================================================



I am going to go back and adjust all the previous posts and output data to the 1.000" length at 360 approximate grains.



The following is the data for the more modern guns with twist rates faster than 31 twist rate.



======================================================



Input Data for 31 inch twist rate guns with 1.000" long

(for modern guns) 360 grain bullet



Caliber : 0.429 inches

Rotating Band Diameter: 0.429 inches

Total Length: 1.000 inches

Nose Length: 0.429 inches

Nose Type Secant

Meplat Diameter: 0.214 inches

Nose Radius: 2.000 cal

Boattail Length: 0.000 inches

Base Diameter: 0.429 inches

Weight: 360 grains

Twist: 31.0 inches

Specific Gravity: 11.14

Drag Function G1

Temperature: 59.0 �F

Barometric Pressure: 29.92 in Hg

Relative Humidity: 0.0 %

Altitude: 0.0 feet

Air Density: 100 % of Sea Level



-----------------------------------------------------------



Calculated Table

Tangent Radius / Radius: 1.041

Sectional Density: 0.279



Velocity Mach CD Form BC Twist Stability RPM

(ft/sec) Number Factor (G1) (inches)

500 0.448 0.220 1.063 0.263 28.65 1.281 11613

700 0.627 0.222 1.094 0.255 28.38 1.257 16258

900 0.806 0.227 0.878 0.318 27.82 1.208 20903

950 0.851 0.228 0.799 0.350 27.59 1.188 22065

1000 0.896 0.253 0.740 0.378 27.27 1.161 23226

1050 0.940 0.316 0.793 0.353 26.80 1.121 24387

1100 0.985 0.381 0.834 0.335 25.92 1.049 25548

1150 1.030 0.616 1.197 0.234 33.31 1.732 26710

1200 1.075 0.639 1.114 0.251 32.91 1.690 27871

1500 1.344 0.706 1.064 0.263 32.64 1.663 34839

2000 1.791 0.692 1.111 0.252 32.88 1.688 46452

2500 2.239 0.658 1.165 0.240 33.08 1.708 58065

3000 2.687 0.625 1.181 0.237 33.22 1.722 69677

4000 3.583 0.573 1.146 0.244 33.43 1.744 92903

4500 4.031 0.554 1.094 0.256 33.51 1.753 104516



This looks OK at 31 twist rate for any speed, including sub-sonic. All pistols and all modern faster twist carbines ought to be fine for having faster than a 30 twist rate anyway.



==========================================================

==========================================================



Here is the data for the old 38 twist rate guns. Notice how the sub-sonic speeds simply ARE NOT STABLE and cannot be trusted at all with any of the heavier bullets?



BEWARE BEWARE as I DO NOT think shorter bullets completely solves the sub-sonic 38 inch twist thing with the NEF guns (please see data below).



The old 38 twist rate just plain sucks below the speed of sound and there is simply NO getting over it. The 38 twist is VERY MARGINAL for air stability above the speed of sound and would likely begin to tumble once the bullet hit meat.





Input Data for 1.000" 360 grain bullets at 38 twist rate



Caliber : 0.429 inches

Rotating Band Diameter: 0.429 inches

Total Length: 1.000 inches

Nose Length: 0.429 inches

Nose Type Secant

Meplat Diameter: 0.214 inches

Nose Radius: 2.000 cal

Boattail Length: 0.000 inches

Base Diameter: 0.429 inches

Weight: 360 grains

Twist: 38.0 inches

Specific Gravity: 11.14

Drag Function G1

Temperature: 59.0 �F

Barometric Pressure: 29.92 in Hg

Relative Humidity: 0.0 %

Altitude: 0.0 feet

Air Density: 100 % of Sea Level



----------------------------------------------------------



Calculated Table

Tangent Radius / Radius: 1.041

Sectional Density: 0.279



Velocity Mach CD Form BC Twist Stability RPM

(ft/sec) Number Factor (G1) (inches)

500 0.448 0.220 1.063 0.263 28.65 0.852 9474

700 0.627 0.222 1.094 0.255 28.38 0.837 13263

900 0.806 0.227 0.878 0.318 27.82 0.804 17053

950 0.851 0.228 0.799 0.350 27.59 0.791 18000

1000 0.896 0.253 0.740 0.378 27.27 0.772 18947

1050 0.940 0.316 0.793 0.353 26.80 0.746 19895

1100 0.985 0.381 0.834 0.335 25.92 0.698 20842

1150 1.030 0.616 1.197 0.234 33.31 1.152 21789

1200 1.075 0.639 1.114 0.251 32.91 1.125 22737

1500 1.344 0.706 1.064 0.263 32.64 1.107 28421

2000 1.791 0.692 1.111 0.252 32.88 1.123 37895

2500 2.239 0.658 1.165 0.240 33.08 1.136 47368

3000 2.687 0.625 1.181 0.237 33.22 1.146 56842

4000 3.583 0.573 1.146 0.244 33.43 1.161 75789

4500 4.031 0.554 1.094 0.256 33.51 1.167 85263



OK, the harsh reality is NOTHING is going to fix those 38 twist guns if the bullet falls below the speed of sound -- they can't even shoot the box-stock standard LEE 310 grain gas check bullet sub-sonic as it would lose stability crossing & going below the 1150 fps speed of sound.



And I am right there with the NEF guys because my old Ruger carbine does have a 38" twist in it -- durn. I can use the bigger bullets, but I MUST remain above the speed of sound to get any sort of acceptable air stability numbers.



And once my 38 twist carbine thrown slug impacts a deer, it will tumble causing a lot of meat destruction.



The 1.000" long 360 grain bullet requires a 30 twist or better to stablize it below the speed of sound or give it tumble resistance once you hit a deer with it.



And that is that -- find out what your twist rate is and if it is over 30 please don't buy this experimental bullet for sub-sonic work as it won't do well for you at all.



At least everybody understands this right now early on going into the thing.



Rats, great big mangy spotted tailed rats ...



I'm still going to buy a mold for my pistols and for any plinking uses above the speed of sound out of my Ruger .44 carbine (and I will try a few sub-sonics just to see if it really does tumble like the spin programs says it will).



The 360 grain bullet will still work for any modern twist barrel out of a wildcat mauser as they will NEVER see sub-sonic speeds even at 300+ yard distances.



360 grain bullet has a 2.44 BC and it would look like this ballistically out of a 30-06 cased wildcat leaving the muzzle at 2,000 fps (very do-able). Notice how it stays above the speed of sound all the way out to 350 yards? Any modern twist rate barrel (30 twist or better) would work with this wildcat mauser round.



Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift

0 2000 -0.75 0 0 3198 0

25 1917 1.64 0.36 0.04 2938 0.57

50 1842 3.45 1.31 0.08 2712 0.98

75 1768 4.61 2.9 0.12 2499 1.67

100 1697 5.07 5.19 0.17 2302 2.66

125 1628 4.79 8.23 0.21 2119 3.95

150 1562 3.67 12.1 0.26 1950 5.57

175 1498 1.66 16.86 0.31 1794 7.53

200 1437 -1.31 22.59 0.36 1651 9.85

225 1380 -5.35 29.38 0.41 1522 12.53

250 1326 -10.51 37.3 0.47 1406 15.59

275 1275 -16.93 46.47 0.52 1300 19.02

300 1228 -24.68 56.97 0.58 1205 22.84

325 1185 -33.87 68.92 0.65 1123 27.04

350 1147 -44.61 82.41 0.71 1052 31.6





So, that is where the idea stands as of Saturday, 2/7/04. Beware the twist rate of your tube.



Oldfeller.

Just sent you an E-mail, oldfeller. Count me in. I can shoot 'em out of my Ruger Super Blackhawk.

I just ordered a $35 (my shipped cost) 20 3/4" long .44 caliber 1.2" shank diameter raw barrel blank from Numrich Arms in the old 38 twist format. This barrel will be screwed on to a modified Mexican M93 square bottom bolt action (with an armory installed gas-bypass vent added to the bolt body) mauser action.



I feel this particular mauser action could be a bit stronger/safer than a lever action (and all book loads for 444 Marlins were based on lever actions of course). So, the lack of the third safety lug doesn't bother me all that much as the action does have the gas-catching ability of the later mausers and it will not see really big pressures anyway when using surplus BMG powders.



(BTW, a full case of IMR 7383 would be slow powder for this .44 caliber wildcat. IMR 5010 would be galacially, terribly, hard to keep it lit slow.)



Something Felix has said repeatedly just kept ringing in my head "For cast, just twist rate it just enough to barely stabilize the bullet -- that's the ideal twist rate for maximum accuracy in lead." "A 1.2 stability factor is good for busting tin cans out to 200 yards in a cast gun".



Now, this gun almost counts as a concept/development toy as I don't really like recoil all that much and I never envisioned making up a "bear-buster" wildcat cartridge anyway. If Felix's words bear truth, that heavy 21" bull barrel might make me up a right accurate heavy cast bullet spitter, though.



Yes, the barrel I ordered is a HEAVY (very lightly tapered) 20" barrel and it will stay both heavy and in-the-white until I finish working out the loads and other relevant details. Once I know a good bit more about performance criteria of my finished round then I can finish the barrel out to make it all pretty and then I can blue it.



I plan to do all the work on the chamber reamer, reloading dies, etc myself. I had already bent the bolt handle and had already modified the M93 action a bit to enable it to accept a 7mm-08 short-chambered standard format M93 mauser barrel that I already had on hand.



We shall see. It is the heart of winter and things are slow. I just spent a whopping $60 on gun stuff, that isn't bad compared to any of the past "heart of winter" periods when things got real slow and boring.



Now to develop a nice large ballooned-out 30-06 wildcat case reamer. You do the barrel chamber first, then the sizing die (this way the sizing die is smaller by the natural wear on the reamer and furthermore the sizing die steel shrinks a bit during heat-treat and winds up sizing the cases small enough to be a slip fit into the chamber). Plus you can always spin-lap the chamber a bit to smooth it out some and open it up a tad.



Oldfeller

OF could you post a link to the 44 barrel? I can't seem to search for anything on their site with success. I did order 2 or the .451 barrels though.

Ooooops ....



My .44 barrel came in from Numrich and it is a remarkably ugly piece of crap. It is 100% ugly ugly surfaced as a rough steel forging that has flake & scale rust all over the outside of it from protracted storage without any rust preventative, it has rust (and rust pits) in the shiny rifled bore and this one has already been shipped to somebody who tried to see if the forged shank was ever going to clean up. He gave up at 1.157" on the quite out of round 1.2" shank section and sent it back.



I will do the same. NO RECOMMENDATION for anybody to buy this .44 caliber barrel from Numerich Arms.



Oldfeller

http://images.ofoto.com/photos590/9/26/27/38/99/0/99382726905_0_ALB.jpg

Here is a sketch of the 360 grain 444 Terminator. I have started work on my chambering tool (very easy to do since it is only a skim cut to the rifled bore.

Oldfeller

That's a "Forbidden" link for us, oldfeller.

Today is the LAST DAY to get a check on the 360 grain 1" long LEE .44 bullet deal.

Tommorrow is the 14th (and I have been getting in checks earlier this week and I think I have them all in now).

Just a reminder to PLEASE post here if you are placing your order today if you are going to do so.

If you are sending out a check TODAY -- PLEASE POST that fact here so I can know that it is coming.

This will permit me to go ahead and talk intelligently to Doug later on this afternoon and not miss anybody.

Thanks,

Oldfeller

I hope you've gotten my check. It went out in the mail on February 10.

John

Just got my mould! This is a LONG .44 bullet, all right! What a gas check shank! Now to get some of these cast...

Thanks, oldfeller!

I got mine in the mail today, thanks. It casts great and the boolits just fall from the cavity with no problems at all. Mine weighs in at 357gns and is .995" long by .4295". I may just have to slap a piece of beagle tape on it and go work.



I ran some numbers through quickload if anyone is interested. This is not load data, just a computer simulation to give us an idea of where we might be at loading a 360gn boolit in a 44mag from 7.5" revolver.

44mag max chamber pressure is 36ksi

crimped in the short crimp groove:

Unique

6gns 846fps 24.3ksi 75%

7gns 930fps 33ksi 88%



2400 seated in the short crimp groove:

12gns 1037fps 29.9ksi 91%

13gns 1118fps 37.7ksi 99%

seated in the long crimp groove:

12gns 974fps 21.7ksi 75%

14gns 1124fps 32.4ksi 87%

15gns 1197fps 39.3ksi 112%



WC820 seated short

15gns 1140fps 33.8ksi 107%

16gns 1226fps 43.2ksi 115%

seated long

17gns 1205fps 34.1ksi 100%

18gns 1281fps 41.7ksi 106%



296 seated short

16gns 1120fps 30.3ksi 107%

17gns 1209fps 39.2ksi 114%



seated long

18gns 1176fps 30.1ksi 99%

19gns 1255fps 37ksi 104%



AA1680 to simulate WC680

seated short

16gns 1014fps 30.7ksi 106%

17gns 1094fps 39.1ksi 113%



seated long

19gns 1133fps 34.6ksi 103%

20gns 1205fps 42.2ksi 109%







The high pressure numbers are listed to show the quick jump in pressure when your nearing the danger zone.

Just out of curiosity, Lar, how about running the Quickload figures with WC680? (Probably have to use AA1680 data.) I haven't figured out yet how much space is in the the case seated long, but that's what I thought I'd try first. Seat it out and fill it full. Somewhere around 18-20 grains is what I'm guessing it'd hold.

Lar, pop a .44 caliber gas check on the butt end of it and lube it, then weigh it. The slug gets a good bit heavier when checked & lubed, enough to affect your reported Quickload numbers a smidgen or two.

Oldfeller