AR 15 7 Twist With Cast

07 December 2010, 07:10

Larry,

I read your posts and saw your groups. All I have to say is that I've cheated myself. By that I mean I can do those 1.5, 1.75, and 2.0 groups at HV at 100 with my cast, but that wasn't acceptable to me so dumped all the loads and data. I wanted 1.0 or less. Anyways that's good shooting and there sure aren't any flies on a 6 inch group with a military configuration AR 15 at 300 yards. That is not using a heavy barrel free float forearm flat top receiver.

Those were what, in the 1700 to 2000 fps bracket?

07 December 2010, 08:04

swheeler

07 December 2010, 08:46

SmokinJ

quote:
Originally posted by swheeler:

07 December 2010, 09:23

swheeler

quote:
By that I mean I can do those 1.5, 1.75, and 2.0 groups at HV at 100 with my cast, but that wasn't acceptable to me so dumped all the loads and data. I wanted 1.0 or less.

Joe you got that decimal point in the wrong place, 1.0?? surely you meant .1! Jack Black says you're smokin crack. Smokin J is a good handle for you, Pinocchio Joe and Gepettos Joe also seem quite fitting.

07 December 2010, 09:42

SmokinJ

quote:
Originally posted by SmokinJ:
quote:
Originally posted by swheeler:
[QUOTE]By that I mean I can do those 1.5, 1.75, and 2.0 groups at HV at 100 with my cast, but that wasn't acceptable to me so dumped all the loads and data. I wanted 1.0 or less.

Joe you got that decimal point in the wrong place, 1.0?? surely you meant .1! Jack Black says you're smokin crack. Smokin J is a good handle for you, Pinocchio Joe and Gepettos Joe also seem quite fitting.

07 December 2010, 21:41

Larry Gibson

SmokinJ:

"Those were what, in the 1700 to 2000 fps bracket?"

With a 7" twist AR (standard service contour barrel) best accuracy comes in the 1450 - 1550 fps range but functional reliability is not 100%. I can push them faster and equal the accuracy of foreign M193 and get functional reliability. BTW; I really don't consider the accuracy of a lot of foriegn M193 to be "good". Most is serviceable but some is down right bad.

With my 9" Colt Hbar best accuracy comes right at 1900 fps with complete functional reliability. Again I can push it faster, upwards of 2200 fps and get M193 accuracy (2-3 moa).

Best cast bullet performance comes with my M16 barrel with a 12" twist. I get very good 2 moa concistent accuracy at 2200 fps. Pushing faster i maintain 3-4 moa upwards of 2450 fps. If the weather is warmer I can push that a little higher to almost 2600 fps. Much after that and probably 2 -4 shots out of 10 won't stay on target at 100 yards.

Larry

PS; I'll let you and swheeler "hash" it out (pun intended....aren't I funny....

)

07 December 2010, 22:17

SmokinJ

Larry,

Yup you're a funny guy alright...seriously. Larry I can and have done better then that rpm range your gave for " a 7 twist" in my Colt HBAR. I can get the accuracy, and even smaller groups, at 2000 and over. Holding at that 2000 fps I can get just under an inch. That's still not capable of what my rifle will do with jacketed. I lucked out with the HBAR I have as it shoots pretty good considering that damn NATO chamber.

I don't have a great bullet is my problem. It's the 72 grain from the NEI mould and the nose on it was drastically undersized to start with, then I lapped the mould out some and frankly to tell the truth that didn't come out real great. I'm highly dissatisfied with the bullet and the lousy job I've done on the job. I have the NEI 55 grain loverin style mould and it shoots pretty good, but I want that darn long heavy bullet to push that 7 twist. My alloy has been the 50/50 which you know.

08 December 2010, 00:11

swheeler

quote:
PS; I'll let you and swheeler "hash" it out (pun intended....aren't I funny.... )

That's damned funny! SmokinJ and hash

Guess it probably could make you pound your chest, make the facts a little fuzzy, does it Joe?

08 December 2010, 00:37

SmokinJ

quote:
Originally posted by swheeler:
quote:
PS; I'll let you and swheeler "hash" it out (pun intended....aren't I funny.... )

That's damned funny! SmokinJ and hash
Guess it probably could make you pound your chest, make the facts a little fuzzy, does it Joe?

08 December 2010, 07:05

swheeler

Larry, think you could teach Joe to shoot like that? maybe if he practiced a LOT?

08 December 2010, 23:33

SmokinJ

You dress like Larry too??

08 December 2010, 23:59

SmokinJ

Larry,

That is right about the 7 twist will handle those longer heavier bullets, but I feel pretty confident that the 9 twist would too. Remember when I shot those 72 grain NEI's from my 22 Hornet CZ? You know I need to shoot those out further as you were curious what they would do at 100 yards. I shot them at 75 yards if you remember. You also asked that I check the twist on that rifle and it's the common 16 twist. I haven't a clue as to how it stabilized that bullet to 75 yards. One thing that is different on that CZ bore, being a fairly recent manufacture rifle, is it doesn't use the .224 groove. It's much tighter then that and I was surprise for a new rifle that it was. Didn't anyone tell CZ they changed from the .223 diameter to the .224 in the Hornet?

09 December 2010, 02:50

swheeler

quote:
Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Larry,

That is right about the 7 twist will handle those longer heavier bullets, but I feel pretty confident that the 9 twist would too. Remember when I shot those 72 grain NEI's from my 22 Hornet CZ? You know I need to shoot those out further as you were curious what they would do at 100 yards. I shot them at 75 yards if you remember. You also asked that I check the twist on that rifle and it's the common 16 twist. I haven't a clue as to how it stabilized that bullet to 75 yards. One thing that is different on that CZ bore, being a fairly recent manufacture rifle, is it doesn't use the .224 groove. It's much tighter then that and I was surprise for a new rifle that it was. Didn't anyone tell CZ they changed from the .223 diameter to the .224 in the Hornet?

72 grainers out of a 16" twist, I'll bet one hole groups too!

Sounds like you've been drinkin' tequila straight from the bottle again!

09 December 2010, 04:22

idabull

SmokinJ(aka Starmetal,MaxPayne,joe,old joe,et al,ad naus.)doesn't need any teachin..a keyboard and no witnesses sufficeth him for those "groups".... Idabull

09 December 2010, 04:56

SmokinJ

quote:
Originally posted by idabull:
SmokinJ(aka Starmetal,MaxPayne,joe,old joe,et al,ad naus.)doesn't need any teachin..a keyboard and no witnesses sufficeth him for those "groups".... Idabull

I wondered when you would be along you bitter old piece of dung...both of you idabull and swheeler...so plain to see how you two troll for no reason but to cause trouble. Must be the water in Montana huh Bill? Are all Montanans demented as you and wheeler?

09 December 2010, 04:58

SmokinJ

quote:
Originally posted by swheeler:
quote:
Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Larry,

That is right about the 7 twist will handle those longer heavier bullets, but I feel pretty confident that the 9 twist would too. Remember when I shot those 72 grain NEI's from my 22 Hornet CZ? You know I need to shoot those out further as you were curious what they would do at 100 yards. I shot them at 75 yards if you remember. You also asked that I check the twist on that rifle and it's the common 16 twist. I haven't a clue as to how it stabilized that bullet to 75 yards. One thing that is different on that CZ bore, being a fairly recent manufacture rifle, is it doesn't use the .224 groove. It's much tighter then that and I was surprise for a new rifle that it was. Didn't anyone tell CZ they changed from the .223 diameter to the .224 in the Hornet?

72 grainers out of a 16" twist, I'll bet one hole groups too! Sounds like you've been drinkin' tequila straight from the bottle again!

So that's what you drink you drunk..tequila. Had your liver checked lately?

09 December 2010, 18:34

swheeler

quote:
Originally posted by idabull:
SmokinJ(aka Starmetal,MaxPayne,joe,old joe,et al,ad naus.)doesn't need any teachin..a keyboard and no witnesses sufficeth him for those "groups".... Idabull

Agreed, Only guy I know that shoots "one ragged hole" with EVERY gun he owns! Now I understand the technique, forget the shootin', concentrate on the typeing and spinning tales. Looks like NPD is the problem!

fair diagnosis?

09 December 2010, 22:15

Larry Gibson

quote:
Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Larry,

That is right about the 7 twist will handle those longer heavier bullets, but I feel pretty confident that the 9 twist would too. Remember when I shot those 72 grain NEI's from my 22 Hornet CZ? You know I need to shoot those out further as you were curious what they would do at 100 yards. I shot them at 75 yards if you remember. You also asked that I check the twist on that rifle and it's the common 16 twist. I haven't a clue as to how it stabilized that bullet to 75 yards. One thing that is different on that CZ bore, being a fairly recent manufacture rifle, is it doesn't use the .224 groove. It's much tighter then that and I was surprise for a new rifle that it was. Didn't anyone tell CZ they changed from the .223 diameter to the .224 in the Hornet?

Joe

That reminds when years ago I figured the 225462 bullet would be great in my Ruger #3 Hornet with a 16" twist as it would fit inside the Hornets long neck. I worked up a load that shot .5 - .75" groups at 50 yards. Though i had the "cat's meow' with that bullet (mine weighed 58 gr fully dressed cast of the older harder WWs), loaded up a couple hundred and went squirrel shooting. The load was plumb deadly on the close range squirrels (small Columbian & Belding ground squirrels) but past 50 yards or so they were entirely safe. I figured the Weaver K6 scope had given up the ghost so when I got home i put another scope on the rifle and went to the range. At 50 yards the groups were again .5 - .75" but at 100 yards they were 6 - 8"!!!. Some where right after 50 yards that bullet lost it's stability.

That's why, except for the .22LR and handguns, I not longer 'test" at 50 yards for accuracy. I test at 100 yards and then confirm the accuracy at 200 yards or farther.

Larry Gibson

09 December 2010, 22:27

SmokinJ

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
quote:
Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Larry,

That is right about the 7 twist will handle those longer heavier bullets, but I feel pretty confident that the 9 twist would too. Remember when I shot those 72 grain NEI's from my 22 Hornet CZ? You know I need to shoot those out further as you were curious what they would do at 100 yards. I shot them at 75 yards if you remember. You also asked that I check the twist on that rifle and it's the common 16 twist. I haven't a clue as to how it stabilized that bullet to 75 yards. One thing that is different on that CZ bore, being a fairly recent manufacture rifle, is it doesn't use the .224 groove. It's much tighter then that and I was surprise for a new rifle that it was. Didn't anyone tell CZ they changed from the .223 diameter to the .224 in the Hornet?

Joe

That reminds when years ago I figured the 225462 bullet would be great in my Ruger #3 Hornet with a 16" twist as it would fit inside the Hornets long neck. I worked up a load that shot .5 - .75" groups at 50 yards. Though i had the "cat's meow' with that bullet (mine weighed 58 gr fully dressed cast of the older harder WWs), loaded up a couple hundred and went squirrel shooting. The load was plumb deadly on the close range squirrels (small Columbian & Belding ground squirrels) but past 50 yards or so they were entirely safe. I figured the Weaver K6 scope had given up the ghost so when I got home i put another scope on the rifle and went to the range. At 50 yards the groups were again .5 - .75" but at 100 yards they were 6 - 8"!!!. Some where right after 50 yards that bullet lost it's stability.

That's why, except for the .22LR and handguns, I not longer 'test" at 50 yards for accuracy. I test at 100 yards and then confirm the accuracy at 200 yards or farther.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Well we're going to try that 72 grain bullet again and see where it goes bad. By the books there is no way it should stabilize and it's not like the Hornet is HV either. It's surprising your 58 grain bullet was okay for the distances you shot them.

10 December 2010, 05:27

swheeler

Larry I think you have the right idea to test at 100 and 200 yds before making any accuracy claims. I'm sure there are some that test loads at 50 yds and claim 100 on the internet, NOT MENTIONING ANY NAMES HERE.

I would bet that 225462 has a BC close to a flying brick, well not that bad but under .1? and once it shed enough velocity it started to wobble pretty good, somewhere way before 100 yds. I was at a gun show in Williston, ND and a guy there had three boxes of 50 gr Federal 22 magnum he wanted 5.00/ box, I bought them and thought I had made a swinging deal.At 50 yds they shot 2" groups and at 100 yds they shot shotgun patterns. This 783 Marlin will shoot 1" at 50 yds and 2.5 at 100 for 5 with the WW super X 40 gr HP. If memmory servrs I t6hink the 40gr WW start at 1900 and the 50 gr FC about 1500. I'm guessing that 58 gr RN Lyman is similar length as the 50 gr FC, but you were probably starting them a lot faster.