The Accurate Reloading Forums
Possible .45 paper patched mold
21 April 2004, 19:56
Ed BarrettPossible .45 paper patched mold
I am checking to see if there is enough interest in a group buy of a 500 grain paper patched bullet mold from Lee. I have seen what paper patched bullets can do as far as accuracy and speed without leading and I am very happy with the results. I can even get them to feed perfectly in my gibbs 45-70. I did this with some loaned bullets from a friend and I am going to get a mold for myself. I thought if enough other casters would like to go in on a group buy we could get it done a lot cheaper and we could compare notes working up loads. Let me know what you think.
22 April 2004, 01:34
DE HillyerHi Ed! So cool! I've wanted to talk to someone with with a gibbs 45/70. How does it shoot? What's the bore like? Is the headspace right? And does it feed everything well? Are you happy with it? ( And on & on & on !!!) Really, anything you can tell me would be good! Thanks, Dale.
Oh, yes. If I buy a rifle, I might want a mold!
22 April 2004, 02:22
Bad Ass WallaceCBE make an adjustable PP mould from 380gn to 520gn, and a 620gn 0.443 single mould. I bought one years ago and it works a treat. The small 400gn cast of pure lead can be driven to 1900fps in a Ruger No 1 with good accuracy and devestating effect on wild boar.
http://www.users.bigpond.com/ammodump/cbe.html22 April 2004, 02:58
DigitalDanI would not dissuade anyone from branching further into the world of paper patch shooting, but suggest a cheaper route if you're interested. Any mould of a diameter suitable for caliber, with or without grease grooves is suitable for PP. The Lee sizer does a good job of reducing diameter to a useful PP size, forget about lubing the grooves, wrap and shoot.
That said, I had my own dies made for my excursion. Top quality PP bullets are available from Montana Precision Swaging if you're interested, base and nose shape your choice as well as weight. Luck on your project.
22 April 2004, 05:44
Ed BarrettQuote:
Hi Ed! So cool! I've wanted to talk to someone with with a gibbs 45/70. How does it shoot? What's the bore like? Is the headspace right? And does it feed everything well? Are you happy with it? ( And on & on & on !!!) Really, anything you can tell me would be good!
I'm very happy with the gibbs except for the sights. I am going to put a parker hale peep sight on it. the shooring has all been cast since I got it new about 5 months ago. The twist is about 1 in 20. The barrel is marked Navy Arms. As far as feeding from the magazine it's seems to feed fine with anything over 300 graing. The number 4 action seems plenty strong for anything I've put through it. I fed it stuff marked for the Siamese Mauser in the loading books and some loads a little stronger with no problems. The only thing that I'm not quite used to yet is the cocking on closing, I feel that little bit of resistance and I look down. The Gibbs was baught for wild hog hunting but I think it might go deer hunting this fall too.
22 April 2004, 05:48
Ed BarrettQuote:
CBE make an adjustable PP mould from 380gn to 520gn, and a 620gn 0.443 single mould. I bought one years ago and it works a treat. The small 400gn cast of pure lead can be driven to 1900fps in a Ruger No 1 with good accuracy and devestating effect on wild boar.
http://www.users.bigpond.com/ammodump/cbe.html
BAW;
Looks like a pretty nice mold. Would you know about the shipping would be from "Down Under"? I was thinking with the Lee we would only have less than $30 apiece in the molds.
22 April 2004, 11:56
Bad Ass WallaceThese moulds are a bit more expensive @ $US50 plus about $12 for shipping. I have about 12 in various styles and they are very well made. One bullet 462/500 is a dream in the 45/70 and also in my 577/450 which has grouped a 10 shot ragged hole at 50m with black powder of just over 1".
The 410/410 I use to PP bullets up to .425 for my 404 Jefery
Quote:
I am checking to see if there is enough interest in a group buy of a 500 grain paper patched bullet mold from Lee. .... Let me know what you think.
Count me in. CAD support if you want it too.
Tim K
26 April 2004, 12:48
Ed BarrettThanks that's 4 so far. I have been out of town for a few days. Went down to southern Missouri and got two turkeys.
If you know of anyone else who might be interested please spread the word.
Thanks
Quote:
Thanks that's 4 so far. I have been out of town for a few days. Went down to southern Missouri and got two turkeys.
If you know of anyone else who might be interested please spread the word.
Thanks
OK GUYS - lets get this rolling!
I've posted it on Graybeardoutdoors.com Aimoo.com and the CB-List. (all with reference to this thread)
What other boards are out there? Let the folks know & lets make moulds!
thanx
26 April 2004, 18:50
floodgateEd: Count me in. floodgate
OK Ed - counting the two more on Aimoo were up to 7.
Some good comments there on size. We (translated as you're the leader) need to start the talk on the design. You (translated as you) need to make the decisions.
Edited: PS: take my 'pushiness' as excitement.
27 April 2004, 05:31
Ed BarrettOK I will start to throw some Ideas out. I was thinking of a spire point of about 500 grains. The spire point would negate it's use in tubular magazines, unless songle loaded. If we have a bunch of lever types we could go to a truncated cone. From talking to some regular cast paper patched users the paper thickness can be changed to regulate to each rifle. OK, what do you guys think of that?
27 April 2004, 11:49
BrentEd,
I think spire points are quite poor choices for paper patched bullets - sorry about that. They have no hunting application in cast bullet format, they are prone to nose slumping, esp. when used with black powder - which is the best way to shoot paper patched bullets, and they offer little or no ballistic advantage at lower velocities; in fact, they may offer only a negative ballistics relative to round nose bullets of various flavors.
Brent
PS. Were I to be choosing a nose shape, I would opt for something along the lines of Dick Gunn's bullets such as the NEI 349C which you can find at
www.neihandtools.comPPS. I forgot to ad that you can only adjust for bore diameter with paper thickness to a limited degree. This is governed in part by the powder type to be used, the depth of the rifling, and the availability of papers of different thicknesses. I always recomment that a peron should first measure bore/land diameters, then find an available paper, and finally, build a bullet around the first two dimensions.
My hunting use for the .458WM (or NEA 45-70) is for woodchucks - gotta have a flat point for that, well, rounded would do.
I think the standard groove diameter will be about .458 with the bore diameters varying abit but about .450 . Now is a good time to measure.
28 April 2004, 02:18
45 2.1Hi Ed-
I've been shooting PP in the 4570 since the early 80's. I agree with Brent that a spire point isn't the way to go. I would like a 360 to 380 gr. bullet with a LBT type flat nose, but not as large with a hollow point, a long crimping groove and the LEE tumble lube bands. Maybe with a .452 - .453" diameter. These are just may thoughts, but this size has worked in a lot of rifles with onionskin patch over the years and are meant for smokeless loads.
28 April 2004, 09:24
Ed BarrettWhat are your Ideas about a hollow base?
28 April 2004, 11:41
BrentQuote:
What are your Ideas about a hollow base?
Hollow bases are a bit painful to cast I think. They also can cause problems with wads sticking in them. Shallow cups are nice, and work just as well as flat bases, but not better. Deep cups will be more problematic with wads.
For ease of casting, I'd go with flat bases.
A good take off for a design is on my webpages. Gunn-Danielson Bullet You can forget about the "delaminator" ring at the ogive, but the general nose shape is a good one. Truncate it for a good flatnose. If hunting is an issue.
Brent
28 April 2004, 14:40
Paul BraskyEd, I'm definitely interested, but my shoulder hopes it's lighter than 500gr. (I shoot a Marlin 1895). ...Maven
29 April 2004, 01:49
45 2.1A flat base is the way to go with a soft paper patch bullet. If you were patching for black powder to bore diameter ( not to groove diameter as for smokeless ) then you could use a dished or hollow base as Brent mentioned. With Lee, you can either get a hollow point or a hollow/dished base, but not both at the same time. Both would require a swageing die. If you used the standard Lee tumble lube groove setup, the base would be about perfect as it is. Brents web site is very interesting, he patches for the big single shots. Smaller calibers sometimes need a different approach to get good results though.
29 April 2004, 03:24
Lar45I don't know what I'd do with one just yet, but count me in as well. I guess I'll just have to get a 45-70 rifle.
29 April 2004, 23:25
greggI want to see what you all come up with before I say yes.. I am interrested.
30 April 2004, 03:55
DigitalDanSome errant thoughts borne of my small experience in this arena.
Flat or cupped base will work, I prefer flat.
Take Brent's advise regarding the design based on barrel dimensions and paper thickness.
JMO, but meplats are of benefit to those using hard alloys regarding terminal ballistics. They screw up BC big time. All the stuff you know about cast bullet shooting, chuck it when you start doing PP, at least most of it. You can drive pure lead or 20:1 to near 2000 fps without leading when using PP, hard alloys quite a bit faster. Soft lead will obturate whether you shoot smokeless or black. Trust me on this, you don't NEED a meplat for the soft alloys to perform beyond your wildest dreams in the terminal phase. Go with a RN design in the spirit of the tried and proven profiles of the past. Expect a BC of .240 or better assuming comparable weight, and double caliber expansion with 95%+ weight retention, even with point blank impact.
What you don't need to do is reinvent the wheel.
Paul, I have a good friend that shoots PP from a 1895 Cowboy Gun, 510 gr at 1600 fps isn't that unpleasant and it's an MOA load for him. 1300 fps is a pussycat, but it shoots way too well for a levergun! Watched him do 1.25" for 3 using a vernier sight a few weeks back, elbows on a bench. I'mn just guessing of course but suspect it would probably turn a deer inside out.
His bullet source is Montana Precision Swaging.
02 May 2004, 15:35
Ed Barrettfrom the feed back here and at CB it seems that the choices see, to point to aprox. 400 grain, round nose with a metplate, flat base, .452 cast at 20 to 1. I would tend to the smooth rather than the Lee mini grove type sides, I guess I'm a traditionist. How does this sound for the next round of feed back?
02 May 2004, 16:00
Paul BraskyEd, My shoulder can live with that weight. The design is just about perfect too! ...Maven
02 May 2004, 15:54
floodgateEd:
I'll go with that.
floodgate
I would prefer the mini grooves for double duty in a pistol, but I'll buy one either way.
02 May 2004, 20:36
Ed BarrettOk, if anyone that it interested would Email me at
elb@cameron.netPlease put the word gun in the subject line. I have a spam blocker and anything with gun in the subject line will come trrough to me. So mar it's kept the viarga ads to a minimum.
03 May 2004, 08:07
Ed BarrettI have 8 tentative orders so far 17 more to go. Slould have a pic of the design up soon.
Ed - 300k of the first two drawings are in your in-box (or atleast in the ether and will materialize there soon).
Suggest that the secant-ogive (rather than the tangent-ogive is better of two designs).
Brent - took dimensions heavily from your site - Thanks!
Now comes the refinement of the design and the decisionmaking.
Ed -
tried 5 times. Just get this back:
Hi. This is the qmail-send program at mail1.onnetsecure.net.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
<elb@cameron.net >:
Sorry, I couldn't find any host named cameron.net?. (#5.1.2)
--- Below this line is a copy of the message.
Return-Path: <covbldrs@nrvi.net>
Received: (qmail 10613 invoked by uid 0); 2 May 2004 23:56:48 -0000
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03 May 2004, 20:54
Ed BarrettThied emailing you. Be sure to put the word "gun" in the subject to get around my anti spam program.
Got your email.
Using reply it identified your address as what I typed in before.
Entered 'gun' in the subject line as I did before.
Hasn't bounced yet - last night it would bounce almost immediately.
Mysteries of the unexplained. (isn't that redundant?)
Thanks,
Tim
04 May 2004, 06:05
Ed BarrettMaybe the computer gods are smiling today.
OK Here is the first cut at it.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/148226.jpgIt's 150k so I did not post it to display here because it's so wide.
I will remove this drawing when the design changes. If you want to track the changes, copy the jpg to your HDD.
It sometimes takes 12 to 20 versions to come to a final design. Shouldn't take that many with this one.
The weight isn't even figured here. I'll need to calculate the volume and adjust the length to achieve the desired weight - what ever is chosen. This one is in the ballpark of 400 grains - maybe.
Ed's the decision maker. I be the drafter. Comments invited.
IF it's paper patched, would one little tiny lube groove mess it up? I've never shot paper patched before. When Dan and I were doing the nose comparison in the 454, there was one cavity in a mold that had a program error. It's a 340gn SWC and the shank is mostly straight with just a slight wiggle in the middle just big enough to hold a thin smear of lube. I loaded some and shot them on a whim expecting them to do terrible, but they shot great and I didn't get any leading. This is my thought for asking for a tiny lube groove, but if it would compromise the primary mission of a paper patched .458 then probably not. Just my thoughts.
04 May 2004, 20:05
Ed BarrettI have been thinking (after getting more user input) about going with the Lee mini grooves. As was pointed out this would make the one mold serve a dual purpose as a paper patched rifle and a pistol bullet.
I talked to Lee today and they said a one inch long bullet could be used in a six cavity mold. The price difference isn't that much and the six holers seem to be finished much better. (No leementing)
Let me know what you think.
Ed-
I want a 6 holer! As for the bullet design, smooth sided with alloyed lead and smokeless is a hard to get to shoot for a first try. Cast out of pure lead does much better. I have tried most all of the possible nose shapes and body types also. Think of the Lyman 457191 shape that is lengthened with tumble lube grooves. For this to work in a dual capacity, copy the front band to nose length and it will fit in revolvers also. Secant ogive design won't help that much in a shorter bullet in my tests. These are just my observations from 24 years of PP shooting.
I would prefer a six cavity mold myself,esp. considering the cost=quality equation benefit. The Lee folks put forth a much better product in a six vs a two cav. And dropping good boolits is what we are after are we not? I shall leave the design to the experts and wait for a while on the sidelines. 45nut
My vote is to the 6 holer. I to will wait on the sidelines