A good take off for a design is on my webpages. Gunn-Danielson Bullet You can forget about the "delaminator" ring at the ogive, but the general nose shape is a good one. Truncate it for a good flatnose. If hunting is an issue.
Brent- Dick Gunn has an article about lube grooves on Paper Patched bullets in the latest CBA "Fouling Shot". Very interesting! He mentions you in the last paragraph also, something about you having accuracy problems at long range with a sharps PP copy of their long range bullet with smooth sides. Having shot long range with the 45-70 and 45-120 with paper patched sized down conventional lube groove bullets with smokeless and black, I would like to here your take on the problems that dick Gunn mentioned, as I have had little problem with getting really good accuracy.
Well, I don't know much about what Dick might have been refering to. I didn't see the article.
More importantly, I don't even shoot long distance. Sure would like to, but never have. Other folks are shooting this bullet out of muzzleloaders out to 1000 but not me - yet.
I have worked with another version of this same bullet that has a boattail. I got it to fly w/o mushing the boattail but never worked up a proper load for it. It would be the end-all of paper patched bullets if it can be made to be accurate.
These shooters seem to be shooting blackpowder. I was really looking for something that would be of use with smokeless powder. There seem to be some research done on this but is a much smaller amount of work. The black powder people seem to make the bullet much smaller in diameter to counteract the effects of fouling then use the explosive effect of black powder to expand the base of the bullrt to take the rifleing. While some excellent results have been achived over the years with this method, I believe with a larger diameter bullet patched to groove diameter or plus excellent results can be had with smokeless.( I know the BP Clan think smokeless is just a passing fad) I think experimenting with this design might be fun, and isn't that what it is all about?
Posts: 363 | Location: Missouri Ozarks, USA | Registered: 10 July 2002
Ed- The research for smokeless HAS been done and the results exceed those of the blackpowder clan, BUT nobody beleives the results. The long nose form doesn't work all that well with smokeless either. I gave you the IMO ideal form for a smokeless PP bullet: The nose of the Lyman 457191 with a LEE tumble lube body at .452" to .454" of about 360 to 380 grains cast out of pure lead and patched with 9# onionskin. It shoots sub MOA at up to 380 yds ( thats the last target board at my home range with benchrest) and it expands out there to. I have shot them many times at 500 to 750 yds with cross sticks and they still shot better than I could see. If I were going after Elk or Moose, I would probably cast a hard nose with a soft body PP bullet on these or use Seyfrieds soft nose with a hard body with a normal cast design. I don't do this much anymore since I don't live in really big game country and since I learned how to get big bores to shoot the same with normal cast bullets and it's a lot less labor intensive to boot. The small patched diameter with the blackpowder clan is due to getting the bullet into the rifling over blackpowder fouling. the fouling can and will tear up a patch if the fouling is hard and reduce accuracy to nothing plus leading the bore. Their only way around this is to shoot swiss powder which gives much less fouling,use to duplex the charge or use lube wads. All of Brents data and Sites are for blackpowder usage. most of what he referenced has been done in the past, almost nothing is new, but most was forgotten and is being reinvented now. Boatail patched bullets aren't new either as I have read acounts of there use back in the 1800's. Instead of the beeswax ring that Brent showed, they tried wooden sabots. with all of today technology, something else should work just as well.
Quote: Ed- Boatail patched bullets aren't new either as I have read acounts of there use back in the 1800's. Instead of the beeswax ring that Brent showed, they tried wooden sabots. with all of today technology, something else should work just as well.
I'd be interested in following up on this. Where did you read that? There are stories of boattails but I've never been able to verify them. I sure would like to, and I would really appreciate the reference if you can find it again.
If you want to shoot smokeless with ppbs, then you do want to be groove+ diameter. At least according to everything I read about it. The best source on this, bar none, is Paul Matthews' book "The Paper Jacket".
Posts: 2239 | Location: Where I've bought resident tags:MN, WI, IL, MI, KS, GA, AZ, IA | Registered: 30 January 2002
Brent- It's been a long time ago that I read a detailed account of boattailed PP bullets, but here are several places you can try. "The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle", The first book put out by the NRA bookservice (can't remember the name right now)in its present series, try contacting Ross Seyfried as he has done research into this, and Whitworths writings in the mid 1800's. PP boattail bullets have been tried several times in the last 40 years and been written about a few times, all this is from memorary since I lost my library in the early 90's due to fire and haven't been able to find some of the best references since.
Quote: Can one wrap a .451 cast bullet and shoot it in a .458 bore? How does one seat a paper patched bullet? Do you wrap with or against the rifling twist? How does one seal the base for gas check?
Sabot- Assuming you want to shoot PP with smokeless, then here is the procedure. For a 45 caliber, cast a 300 to 405 gr bullet out of pure lead and size it to .452" + or - .001". This is about bore diameter which is what you want. Do not have any lube on that bullet, it needs to be clean and dry when you patch it. Apply two wraps of 9# onionskin paper as the patch. The patched diameter will be about .007" to .008" above the bare sized bullet and will seat in all the 4570 throats I have checked. The Paper Jacket is a good book to read about this. See the book for sizing the patch to wrap on the bullet. I have seen no difference in direction of patching as all modern rifling cuts the patch to shreads and we really don't have access to the old bank note paper used to patch the shallow groove rifles of the past. Twisting the tale and let dry till it feels dry and clip the tale off. Let dry for a day, then lube the bullet with 55%vaseline/45%beeswax. Prepare cartridge case as for lead bullets. Oversizing the case or not having an expander that is large enough is BAD. Get an expander that is not less than .001" under the patched bullet diameter that puts a good flare on the case neck.Trim and chamfer your cases so that the case neck is very smooth inside. Back you seating die out some so that the patched bullet seats smoothly and does not scuff or tear the patch, this is VERY important. Your bullet needs to snug up when chambered into the rifles throat and seats the patch into the rifling. At this point you either need to remove the case flare (as an additional step in the loading process) or crimp the case mouth into one of the lubrication grooves on the patched bullet where the patch has shrunk into it (that is if it lines up with it, if not then do NOT crimp so that the patch is cut whatsoever). As for a gas check shank, ignore it and patch normally, it will work just fine. Sr4759 is a very good powder to start with, check Lyman loads for the trapdoors at mid range or above to start with. The reason for the crimp is SR 4759, I found it gives excellant accuracy when the bullet is crimped with it. Good Luck!
Here's the third version. I decreased the radius of the ogive from 1.75 to 1.00" bringing up the junction of the ogive to the cylindrical portion. Kept nose radius and meplat the same. No change yet on taper - need decision. Note the volume. If one of y'all who has the densities of the various flavors of alloys could post them, I'll put calculations into the next version.
This is looking alot better. Taper is not wanted or needed when using smokeless, it was/is a device to get long PP bullets to seat farther into the bore of fouled blackpowder rifles and is difficult to make work right with shorter bullets. I would suggest runing the tumble lube body part to within .04" of the ogive. Sometimes you need to seat the patched bullet into the rifling harder and a solid band that is about .12" is a little too hard or long to do this.
Quote: Trk & Ed- I would suggest runing the tumble lube body part to within .04" of the ogive. Sometimes you need to seat the patched bullet into the rifling harder and a solid band that is about .12" is a little too hard or long to do this.
Trk- Thats ok, but the actual dimensions for the tumble lube grooves are in the 2nd edition of the LEE reloading manual, I saw them there and don't own one yet, sorry. If I remember correctly, the run of a tumble lube groove and band till it repeats is about .04". If you spec'd the front band at .04" and left the rear to run between .08" and .12" you would be ok. The meplat will settle into the primer pocket also, some people really crank PP and this might not be a good idea. A meplat at .25" would solve that possibility. Long noses on short PP bullets don't help ballistically all that much. I have had a lathe since '85 and have tried most all combinations.
45 2.1 Good comments. Increasing the meplat is a no-brainer - safety dictates it. Thanks for the dimensions on the tumble lube grooves - I don't have a Lee manual and had just measured a 'soup can' in .30 cal. and taken the nearest nominial size - so it'll get changed too. I'll change the front band to .040 and we'll see where the chips lay.
Posts: 621 | Location: Virginia mountains | Registered: 25 December 2002