Reccomended alloy for hunting bullets (45-70)

20 November 2003, 07:41

Hi you all guys
Which alloy would you reccomend for hunting bullets to be used in a 45-70 (Marlin 1895 SS)?
Looking for the best penetration and controlled expansion for middle sized game (mostly wild boars)

Any suggestion will be really appreciate !!

Best Regards

[ 11-19-2003, 22:46: Message edited by: Afrikaander ]

20 November 2003, 08:34

Swede44mag

I would try the Lyman 452424 45colt 255gr designed by Elmer Keith. Of course you could a heavier bullet but if you have a 45colt revolver it can be used in it also. [Cool]

Swede44mag

20 November 2003, 09:53

475/480

With heavy bullets (400-550gr) WW + 1% tin BHN 14-16 you do not need anything harder unless you hunt Big bears or Moose etc.. Most people think they need heat treated or harder, it is not needed,Sean

20 November 2003, 17:29

mountaingun

My 2 cents worth.....

Use at least a moderately hard alloy (16 BHN or more). I would use heat treated WW just because it is cheap and works as well as anything.

95% of the time any bullet will do the job, soft or hard. But occasionally a soft bullet will blow up when it hits bone. I have had this happen with jacketed bullets (Speer hot core), bounced right off a bear's head, then failed to penetrate same bear's shoulder blade. Either of those hits would have been fatal with a hard cast bullet.

The late Bob Milek related a similar experience with a 357 cast bullet. Shot a bear in the head with a soft cast bullet, the bullet pancaked and failed to penetrate the skull.

These failures are the exceptions, not the rule, but why take chances? A 45 bullet with a big metplat does not need to expand to be effective.

21 November 2003, 05:25

Paul B

quote:
Originally posted by Swede44mag:
I would try the Lyman 452424 45colt 255gr designed by Elmer Keith. Of course you could a heavier bullet but if you have a 45colt revolver it can be used in it also.
Swede44mag

I must heartily disagree. That bullet will cast out at .454" give or take .001" You need a bullet that is at least .458" or preferably .459" for use in a 45-70. My choice would be the lyman #457322, a 330 gr. hollow point bullet that has been in use since sometime in the 1880's. ken Waters just did a write up on that very bullet in the latest HANDLOADER Magazine, and I've been using it for the last five years. It's proven very accurate in a Marlin 1895 (new Model) and a Ruger #1. I would imagine that wheel weights with a touch of tin added would just about perfect for most hunting. Anything much harder might shatter when hitting large bomes on the bigger animals.
The bullet was developed by Ideal for A. C. Gould who was the first president of the NRA and a known gun writer of the time. His two books, MODERN AMERICAN RIFLES and MODERN AMERICAN PISTOLS AND REVOLVERS are quite intersting reads. (I have both.)
I cast mine from an alloy of 10 pounds wheel weights, one pound of linotype, 1/3 cup of chilled bird shot, and a three foot piece of lead free solder. BHN number is 14, and will heat treat to 31 BHN.
I'm considering a hog hunt sometime next year and that is the bullet I plan on using. I just haven't decided whether to use the Marlin ot the Ruger.
Paul B.

21 November 2003, 17:05

bfrshooter

I have to agree with most of the posters in that a fairly hard boolit is best. The secret is a large meplat like the LBT boolits. One thing you fellas forget though is that heat treated boolits are only hard SKIN deep. Sizing these too much can actually remove the hard surface. A heat treated boolit can still expand to the limits of the alloy but the surface can help prevent leading and dings from handling. Also storing a heat treated boolit for a long time will see the surface soften.
Also .459 is the right size and some of those Lyman .45 Colt boolits come out .452.

22 November 2003, 09:55

shonkster

I USE A GAS CHECK MOULD IT DEPENDS ON THE MIX WHAT WEIGHT THEY END UP, hAD A LOT OF TROUBLE WITH GOING STRAIGHT THOUGH, READ an old article in a magazine on they call a duplex projectile. Ive been casting this now good result on pigs.
I use 2 melting pots 1 has pure lead,the other wheelweights+tin or solder,Make a dipper to suit,the length of the soft hose you want, I first use the dipper them follow up with the harder mix. This gives a soft nose for expanion and harder body to stop leading and good penetration

22 November 2003, 14:51

aladin

quote:
Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I have to agree with most of the posters in that a fairly hard boolit is best. The secret is a large meplat like the LBT boolits. One thing you fellas forget though is that heat treated boolits are only hard SKIN deep. Sizing these too much can actually remove the hard surface. A heat treated boolit can still expand to the limits of the alloy but the surface can help prevent leading and dings from handling. Also storing a heat treated boolit for a long time will see the surface soften.
Also .459 is the right size and some of those Lyman .45 Colt boolits come out .452.

Take your soft lead bullet and place it on a hard surface and proceed to smash it with a hammer. Do same with a hard heat treated bullet. While the outter shell might be harder than the interior, you find that smashing it with said hammer is difficult, to say the least. Least ways that's my observation of bullets treated to their near max hardness.

As far as sizing treated bullets, the only large difference I've observed was shooten cast to their highest possible velocity. Sizing bullets to actual groove dia is more of a problem. I've taken hardened 312's down to 310 shooten in a 309 groove and couldn't hardly see any difference-- if their was one.

22 November 2003, 15:15

Chargar

IMHO alloy is not all that important is a 45-70 as long as accuracy is good and leading not a problem. Why..because you are not going to get any expansion worth talking about from a solid 45-70 bullet. The velocity necessary to expand a solid 45-70 bullet out of an accurate, non-leadying alloy is beyond what a sane man would want shoot.

Now if you are talking hollowpoints then 1-20 or WW+2% tin is what you are looking for.

Expansion is alot not all that important as the 45-70 bullet is pre-expanded.

24 November 2003, 12:20

bfrshooter

Aladin, I did more thinking on this and you are right. The boolit does harden all the way through. Where the trouble with sizing comes in is the surface will soften from the working of the lead. The LBT boolits I was messing with were heat treated and in my box for about 4 years and had softened. A hardness test on a newer LBT boolit showed it much harder.
Thanks for straightening me out. Getting too old I guess. I got away from heat treating years ago and now just water drop them. MUCH easier and plenty hard enough for hunting. [Confused]

28 November 2003, 02:44

Alaska Bush Man

I have used the 350 grain Hard Cast FPGC in my Marlin GG in 45-70 and 450 Alaskan for many years with excellent results on bear and moose.

Another bullet I have received that looks promising is 405 grain "Crater Lite" WFNGC with 50.0 of RL 7 this load should push the 2000 FPS with heavy recoil of course.

.459"

[ 11-27-2003, 17:45: Message edited by: Alaska Bush Man ]

28 November 2003, 03:22

aladin

quote:
Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Aladin, I did more thinking on this and you are right. The boolit does harden all the way through. Where the trouble with sizing comes in is the surface will soften from the working of the lead. The LBT boolits I was messing with were heat treated and in my box for about 4 years and had softened. A hardness test on a newer LBT boolit showed it much harder.
Thanks for straightening me out. Getting too old I guess. I got away from heat treating years ago and now just water drop them. MUCH easier and plenty hard enough for hunting.

The other thing you might find bfrshooter is the surface softening effect of said sizing will not affect accuracy significantly given a large enough sized dia. and a moderate degree of sizing. I've taken the 312 drivers of my LBT spitzer bullet and went down to 310 going thru 308 and 309 bores w/o any real loss of accuracy-- this with heat treated bullets.

In simplier terms... it boils to engraving resistance. Faster and more psi requires more grip.. supplied by harder and larger. The only time I've experienced a loss in accuracy shooten top end speeds is sizing a heat treated bullet down too far [going below .001" over groove dia]. And that loss was under 1 MOA.

But I've observed bullets too small-- at or near groove dia albeit hard fail to hit anything [even the backstop] at high end speeds..