Pig Bullets for a .45-70???

23 October 2006, 12:26

Gents,

I have a Marlin lever action (a M1895 - I guess?) in .45-70, which I have long wanted to try out for pigs on driven hunts. I was wondering if you guys might point me in the right direction with respect to bullets to use. Here is a bit of background:

- most likely the majority of the pigs I'll see will be smaller sized (up to 110 lbs dressed), but I sure would hate to be caught flat footed should a "biggie piggie" make his appearance.
- I was hoping to be able to shoot traditional, cup and core type bullets, the theory being that at .45-70 speeds the stress on bullets won't be high enough to merit special bullets such as Nosler Partitions, Woodleighs etc.
- price is a consideration, less for the actual hunting but for exercising with my load on the running boar target.
- I have seen I can get traditional, FN bullets around 400 grs such as Remington and Speer. Are these any good, and can they be relied on for deep penetration??
- What is the issue with shooting hard cast bullets?? Will they lead up my barrel, and will they kill as well as expanding bullets?? They will probably penetrate deeper??
- I can presumably get some of the cast bullets Midway sells, not all of these are marked as "hard cast", does that mean I should avoid the ones not labelled such??
- I see from my Speer manual, that I can expect to load a 400 grs bullet to around 1800 fps in a M1895. I have never shot game with such slow bullets before, how does this work??
- any recommendations based on practical experience with the .45-70 on pigs or other (heavier) game you'd like to make??

Thanks a lot for any help in advance

- mike

23 October 2006, 17:51

Crazyhorseconsulting

If it were me, I would buy some of the Remington's with the 405 grain bullet and take them to the gun range and see how well the rifle likes them accuracy wise. I don't remember what the factory Remington's are loaded at speed wise, but I think it is around 1300 fps., due to them being loaded so that they can be shot in the weaker trapdoor rifles.

Those big slow moving slugs, from my experience, put stuff down on the spot. A well placed shoulder shot should drop any pig that comes out, and with the Marlin you have the advantage of a quick follow up shot if necessary. JMO.

23 October 2006, 20:18

Charles_Helm

I believe that several people on teh Big Bores board use the Remington 405 JSP for practice from their .458 bolt guns and they may be able to tell you how they like them. Hog Killer and Jeffeosso may be the guys to ask there.

I have to agree with Crazyhorseconsulting that it is a good place to start.

23 October 2006, 20:49

scr83jp

quote:
Originally posted by mho:
Gents,

I have a Marlin lever action (a M1895 - I guess?) in .45-70, which I have long wanted to try out for pigs on driven hunts. I was wondering if you guys might point me in the right direction with respect to bullets to use. Here is a bit of background:

- most likely the majority of the pigs I'll see will be smaller sized (up to 110 lbs dressed), but I sure would hate to be caught flat footed should a "biggie piggie" make his appearance.
- I was hoping to be able to shoot traditional, cup and core type bullets, the theory being that at .45-70 speeds the stress on bullets won't be high enough to merit special bullets such as Nosler Partitions, Woodleighs etc.
- price is a consideration, less for the actual hunting but for exercising with my load on the running boar target.
- I have seen I can get traditional, FN bullets around 400 grs such as Remington and Speer. Are these any good, and can they be relied on for deep penetration??
- What is the issue with shooting hard cast bullets?? Will they lead up my barrel, and will they kill as well as expanding bullets?? They will probably penetrate deeper??
- I can presumably get some of the cast bullets Midway sells, not all of these are marked as "hard cast", does that mean I should avoid the ones not labelled such??
- I see from my Speer manual, that I can expect to load a 400 grs bullet to around 1800 fps in a M1895. I have never shot game with such slow bullets before, how does this work??
- any recommendations based on practical experience with the .45-70 on pigs or other (heavier) game you'd like to make??

Thanks a lot for any help in advance

- mike

Check CorBon 45-70 ammo . http://www.corbon.com Other ammo sources are http://www.buffalobore.com or http://www.grizzlycartridge.com for hard cast bullets & load data go to http://www.castperformance.com add in http://www.z-hat.com

24 October 2006, 08:44

Aglifter

I don't know if Garrett exports, but for some bizzare reason, at 80 yds, and closer, the light Remington 405 loads seem to have the same point of impact as 540 gr. Garrett hammerheads -- personally, I wasn't very impressed with corbon's bullets -- they didn't seem to hold together very well, but that was hitting into a solid backstop.
Frankly, Garrett's and Corbons are pretty much overkill for a 110 lbs pig, and will get pretty unpleasant to shoot pretty quickly. I'd probably go with Hornady lever evolutions -- again, getting them to Switzerland might be tricky.

I'd strongly recommend some WWG parts -- the trigger upgrade makes a huge difference, and the follower will allow the Hornadys to work well, and it's fairly cheap. The ejector is also a cheap, easy to install, upgrade.

Who need's to reload in a hurry? My CB holds 9 rounds in the tube.

24 October 2006, 20:44

Gatogordo

You can easily kill any pig that ever walked with Hornady 350 gr round noses. Loaded to 1800 fps or so, they will work wonders for decreasing the life expectancy of any pig sized animal. For practice, I'd use a medium hardness lead bullet in the 350 to 400 gr range. The LBT designs with a wide flat meplat are great for hunting as well. The old standby Keith 44 mag bullet design, in .458 is a great hunting and practice load as well.

25 October 2006, 17:34

reverenddan

I would second the opinion for the 350 grain round nose bullets from Hornady. I haven't shot any into a pig but they make a deer or antelope lay down immediately (if properly hit).

I have put too many rounds down my Marlin 1895 to count and I would confidently say that leading isn't a problem. I did carefully "season" my bore when the gun was new by cleaning and breaking it in on jacketed bullets. Now a few wipes with my cleaning solution and maybe a little brushing with do the trick every time.

As to your comment "I haven't shot anything with a bullet moving that (1,800 f.p.s.) slow" you should try it! Things just die in front of the 45/70. And besides, if you haven't shot any heavy duty 45/70 loads you should give it a whirl. When you feel the recoil you will know that something has happened!

When I want penetration I will always use hard cast bullets. If you don't cast your own I would recommend Cast Performance Bullets from Laramie WY. Their LBT style bullets are absolutely beautiful. And in the words of my friend John Taffin "If you use a '45' what expansion do you need? You're makin' a 1/2" hole!

25 October 2006, 19:46

jro45

I shot my 200 LB boar with a 160 gr bullet out of my 7mm. That boar was delicious.

25 October 2006, 21:35

mho

Thanks for the great feedback guys!

I only have limited access to components here in Switzerland, and factory loads are even more scarce. But thanks to Midway-Switzerland, I should be able to get hold of some of the bullets you have pointed me in the direction of (albeit at prices 2-3 times that in the US). Certainly, Remington 405 grs, Hornady RN 350 grs and some of the Cast Performance hard cast bullets should be available to me. That is a good start.

I also happened across the following interesting article pertaining to the .45-70 from Guns Magazine, 2004: .45-70 Guns Magazine Article

Thanks again for your help.

- mike

26 October 2006, 02:38

I like the;

Rem 405 gr soft
Speer 400 gr Flat point
sierra prohunter 300 gr Hollow Point Flat Nose
or the rem 300 gr Hollow Point.

26 October 2006, 04:18

Geedubya

I bought my 1895g guide gun the first year they came out. Mine has the ported barrell. I love it for shooting deer and hogs. I use the 400 grain speer flat point over 53 grains of IMR-3031. Typical groups are 1.5 inches at 120 yds or better. It just kills deer and hogs dead. I've even shot coyotes with this load. At 1800 fps you can eat right up to the bullet hole as you don't have the problem with blood shot meat like you do with high velocity cartridges.
GWB

26 October 2006, 14:07

mho

That is great guys, two more positive statements on the Speer 400 grs FN, a bullet the article mentioned above also favours - and what is more, a bullet presumably available to me!

I can certainly see the point of "eating right up to the hole"

. I wonder how far I'll have to learn to lead the running critters with the lower velocity. Mind you, that is all about training, so I'm the one responsible for that part...

- mike

26 October 2006, 16:50

reverenddan

MHO

Having a model 1895 I can tell you that with enough practice you can swing the gun like a shotgun and just pull the trigger instinctively.

If you can afford them both the Speer and Remington 400 grain flat nose are often available in bulk through Midway. Last time I looked I was tempted to lay in a lifetime supply of the Remington because Midway offered a box of 5,000 for a very reasonable price.

Go bust a pig in the shoulder or head with the original 'big bore' and let everyone know how much fun it was and how well it worked.

And whatever you do, if you are going to shoot modern loads through the gun put a decent recoil pad on it!

26 October 2006, 16:57

JFE

I used to use the Speer 400 gr a lot for pigs and never had any problems with them loaded to about 1800 fps. Plenty of penetration from any angle. You should be able to reach 2000 fps but that really is overkill for pigs, never mind the recoil in an 1895 ! 1600-1800 is plenty of speed. I have since switched to cast but do cast my own. If they are made properly, cast should not lead at 45-70 speeds.
Joe

26 October 2006, 17:47

mho

Excellent guys! I'm always thrilled and amazed at all the experience available to be tapped here at the stroke of a keypad!
- mike

26 October 2006, 20:13

JTH

+1 vote for the Speer FN. I've used it on moose at about 540 m/s (about 1800 fps) and it works fine. It exits on calves on shoulder shots and is almost always found under the skin from the opposite side on bigger ones. My shots are usually under 100 meters and with that load there isn't any need for anything else for pigs either - unless you want to try out something just for fun

On small critters the Remington 405 gr may be a bit quicker to expand, but the Speer will make a big enough hole anyway. If you shoot cast bullets and the rifling starts to collect too much lead, which can often happen in the micro-rifled Marlin barrels, the best cleaning method is to shoot a couple of Speers or other jacketed bullets through it. Then clean it normally and that should do it.

26 October 2006, 21:40

Geedubya

mho,

As to lower velocities and leading running game; the difference of 600 to 800 fps will not be that much of a factor at the distances in which you will typically use a 45-70 in a guide gun.
As an old television commercial used to advertise, "try it, you'll like it".
GWB

28 October 2006, 03:33

22Rimfire

For hogs just about any type of factory load will work fine. I use the 350 RN Hornady's in my 45-70 levers. Mine are loaded to around 2100 fps and will put down anything with authority. But most of the load that are out there will work great and you should not be dissapointed. I have enjoyed hunting with the 45-70 now for 20 years. I use to use a 300 WBY but I like the 45-70 more.

The game animals I have shot with are usually dead before GOD gets the news.

They have ranged from pond turtles to 450 lb wild boars.

JM2CW

28 October 2006, 19:48

juanpozzi

Bill used here some noslers and some garrets ,one shot stop in everyshot .He carried a 4570 marlin gun gun.juan

29 October 2006, 01:57

mho

Thanks for the continued feedback guys, much appreciated!

I'll just expose my ignorance about lever actions with a tubular magazine here (normally, bolt actions are what I deal with). I can safely shoot RN bullets in a lever action with a tubular magazine, not just FN bullets?? Yes??

I can see the attraction of the 350 grs Hornady RN bullets - at least they might cause recoil to be slightly less brisk... I belive I also once saw some data on wound channel creation, and that bullet fared very well.

- mike

29 October 2006, 02:10

found the 350gr hornadys to be a bit harder than either the speer or rem 400gr projectiles. used these as reduced loads in my 458win. the 400gr were runing at 1900fps, they expanded very well, large exit holes to thin skinned game, some remained in the animal. the 350gr hornadys, at the same speed, left large exit holes also, but always gave full penetration. either will be effective in the 45/70, round nose and flat points are fine in the tubular mag. The 300gr projectiles are fun for plinking, rather than hunting. the recoil from the 400 and 350gr is not really an issue, quite pleasant to use and kill like sledge hammers.

cheers cc

29 October 2006, 02:12

MHO,

I wouldn't................you can never be to sure just use flat points, if youwant to cut recoil try the 300 gr sierra pro hunter HPFN...............it's devastating on pigs and other thin skinned stuff but at times it can blow massive exit wounds through (it's the Nosler ballistic tip of the 45/70 world)

31 October 2006, 07:45

billinthewild

quote:
Originally posted by juanpozzi:
Bill used here some noslers and some garrets ,one shot stop in everyshot .He carried a 4570 marlin gun gun.juan

My handload:
Nosler 300 gr partition 54 grains H4198
Fed 210 primer
M.V. 2150 FPS

Factory: Garrett 415 grain

02 January 2007, 07:34

Warhawk

I've owned a 1973-74 vintage Marlin 1895 for a long time. And I've fed it a lot of pretty warm handloads using the 405 grain Remington flat points. My loads chrono about 1600 fps, a bit under the maximums listed for levergun loads. In case you're interested I use H-335 powder.

My 1895 has a 22 inch barrel, and probably makes a "little" (very little) more velocity than your guide gun. But I don't think it would be enough to make much difference.

I have not shot a hog with the .45/70 yet. Every time I carry it no hogs show up. But I did kill a big Kansas whitetail buck with it. I'm guessing this deer went 250-275 pounds on the hoof. It was quartering toward me, with it's head down feeding. I shot it in the neck, driving a big chunk of it's spine out behind the left shoulder. I was sold on the .45/70 right then and there.

It's also accurate enough that I've taken a bobcat with a heart shot at 125 yards.

I would certainly be willing to try the 405 grain Remington bullets on a hog. It takes some power and a tough bullet to penetrate the gristle shield over a boars ribs, but that's why we use the .45/70.

Good Luck ...

02 January 2007, 10:34

45/70 Govt.

Locally we're taking Roosevelt elk with 350 gr. Speer.

45-70 takes game because it makes a big hole, with a heavy bullet, that breaks bone. The analogy I suppose is that you can kill with an ice pick (at really high velocity), or you can kill with a baseball bat.

A big bat is not about velocity. It's about being bludgeoned with a big club.

-- Ahhhhhhh, but the whole point of this post is that my buddy's 1895 Marlin won't feed the long bullets. I got all his 400 gr. Speer bullets, because his gun won't feed the OAL when seated at the cannalure.

350 gr. Speer seem to have the same OAL when seated. Sorry I don't have hands on specifics. It's his gun and his loads. I have a Ruger No. 1 which feeds anything.

You don't need velocity or expansion in 45-70. You have bullet diameter, bullet weight. I'd look for a cheap, soft lead, flat nose, jacketed bullet. 300 gr. should take care of even the big hawgs.

Speer seems to fill all those criteria.

02 January 2007, 10:58

dustoffer

Worked up a load for a friend's M1895 in .45-70 and was getting sub-.75" groups for 3 at 100 yds using Barnes 300 gr bullets at around 2100 fps. Not a gentle load however, ended up having to go to the dentist to have a bridge recemented that had been knocked loose.

02 January 2007, 15:42

packrattusnongratus

I haven't lined up on a hog yet. But the 350 gr bullets cast as a LBT style at around 1650 was all the recoil I wanted. I have owned a couple of 458s that slapped pretty good on the buttstock end but decided it was unnecessary. I have shot some things with the LBT hard cast 240 gr in an 86 Winchester. That is a 45-70 case necked down to .33 cal. with lots of taper. I never could recover a bullet. Always got a pass through and pretty much DRT. All were whitetails - shoulder and chest shots. Good luck with that Marlin, they are lots of fun to shoot and load for. Packy

02 January 2007, 17:28

mete

My experience is on deer but I think ,for me, the typical 300 gr is too fragile .I then went to the Win 300 Partition which works much better.I would not hesitate using it on boar.Similar performance would be the Corbon DPX [all copper Barnes] .Another nice one is the no longer available PMC 350 gr.A hard cast 400 at 1700-1800 would be a winner also.

16 January 2007, 22:51

rocketman

I had really good luck with the Hornaday 350 gr round nose. Shot a large pig and had complete pass through. I was using a contender pistol so velocity was even less. I would guess in the 1400 fps range. The shot was at 75 yards. A nice one shot kill.

17 January 2007, 04:17

trekker111

I used the 400gr speer flat nose soft points. on a performance vs. cost they will be more than adequate. They will hold together, will expand, and are cheap. They'll work just fine as long as they are accurate in your gun. On the pigs you're going to use them on, and any bigger ones that may turn up, all the bullets thusfar mentioned would be fine.

On word of caution, If your going to be loading above antique rifle pressures I would stay away from hornady's 300 gr hollw points. If you push them they will come apart. They were designed to expand well at low velocity. The last one I recovered consisted of 7 pieces of lead and a few slivers of jacket.