Hi
i saw in a video clip showing ivory poachers killing big bull elephants with a couple of rounds from a klashnikof !!
how much penetration and power is needed to kill an elephant?
yes

You are not asking the right question.
What is the minimum caliber to cull the poachers?

quote:

Originally posted by dwarf416:
You are not asking the right question.
What is the minimum caliber to cull the poachers?

5.56 NATO


SSR

Richard Harland proved it could be done with a .22LR. Side brain I have done with a .41 mag from a 4" barrel. AK 47 works on a heart shot if you wait for the elephant to walk and move the leg out of the way - same goes for a bow.

Had clients use round balls from a flint lock and sundry other mini balls. Heck even had a client use a .45-70

Even from full frontal the degree of penetration required isn't OTT. The problems come when you need a quatering on shot- either through the front leg or through the tusk base (and consiquently the tusk) into the brain. The rounds like the .458 Win in its currently emasculated form, .470 NE etc are 'marginal' and you need a very strong bullet of good SD at reasonable speeds. Bullets like the varuious .30 cal solids (Steel jacketed or Monolithics) are too thin in relation to their length and tend to bend or break in half especially at higher velocities. Many Bullets from the .375 also have trouble with such shots.

Also a cow or a young bull is not nearly the same problem as a big bull. I haven't tried it but suspect that a .45-70 with suitable bullets would work just fine on cows...

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Richard Harland proved it could be done with a .22LR. Side brain I have done with a .41 mag from a 4" barrel. AK 47 works on a heart shot if you wait for the elephant to walk and move the leg out of the way - same goes for a bow.

Had clients use round balls from a flint lock and sundry other mini balls. Heck even had a client use a .45-70

Even from full frontal the degree of penetration required isn't OTT. The problems come when you need a quatering on shot- either through the front leg or through the tusk base (and consiquently the tusk) into the brain. The rounds like the .458 Win in its currently emasculated form, .470 NE etc are 'marginal' and you need a very strong bullet of good SD at reasonable speeds. Bullets like the varuious .30 cal solids (Steel jacketed or Monolithics) are too thin in relation to their length and tend to bend or break in half especially at higher velocities. Many Bullets from the .375 also have trouble with such shots.

Also a cow or a young bull is not nearly the same problem as a big bull. I haven't tried it but suspect that a .45-70 with suitable bullets would work just fine on cows...

thanks for reply
i have heared a lot about military fmj and AP bullets for culling bulls, but actually there is no real tests on these rounds penetration ability! ,my 3006 150 gr fmj is fishtailing badly in papper test and change the direction and deflecting !! i would be happy if i could find a reading about fmj or AP rounds or even normal solid big bore rounds.
yes

A square made almost all of the 30-06 ammo we used on the culls - great little book 'Balistics in perspective' by Mike LaGrange gives an overview of the results from A suare mono's and Hornady 200grn round nosed FMJ's from .308's. The Nato AP in 7.62 didn't work well at all. the soviet AP in 7,62X 54R was a whole lot better for culling...and of course came in handy semi auto rifles.

Mike was in charge of the Norhern culling group in Zim for about 8 years. He led culls for alot more elephants than most people have ever seen and it was on his request that Art Alphin developed the 30-06 loading as Mike had managed to scrounge a pile of M1 Garands.

I was with the culling teams in Hwange and Gona-re-zhou and never worked with mike. Don't always agree with his assesments but he shot alot more elephants than most and knew more than a thing or two about balistics and penetration. He was not a gifted writer...so his book remains largely unnoticed by most - but you will find alot of fact in there- more facts than by reading Mahobo or Africa's most dangerous or...actually, just about anybody else's books on dangerous game.

Mike was roughly on a par with Tim Paulette with regards to numbers culled and about half of what Clem Coetsee shot. Some of the old control officers like Paul Grobbelar and Richard Harland hunted alot more crop raiding bulls and their stories are worth the read as well...since hunting down specific crop raiders is different to culling...just a great pitty Tim or Clem never put finger to keyboard.

Ganyana,

Hunting Zim back in 2004 one of my partners was bringing his Steyr in .308 Win as his second rifle. We decided that we'd load it with 200 gr bullets for hunting in the valley. We got the 200 gr Soft point Noslers to shoot just fine but for the life of us could not get the 200 gr Barnes solids to work they were simply to long and were key holing badly out of his Steyr.

To slow of twist rate was my diagnosis. Did you ever run into this problem with the various .308 cal that you used?

Surestrike. The F.N. FAL's have a 1:10 twist- as oposed to the 1:12 usually found in sporting rifles. Also the steel jacketed Hornidays are much shorter (and more stable) than any mono metal bullet of the same weight. The A square monolithics for the parks 30-06's were 180grn for that very reason.

i have tested the S&B 180 grain steel jacket in 3006, but despite their steel jacket. these bullets are fragmenting while hitting bones or hard objects,maybe their jackets are very thin!!they act much worse than my norma jaktmatch 150 grains!!!