Well, we pretty much thrashed over the 375, 338, 416 and 458 bores so it's time to give the All American 30cal it's due!
I think by now most of you know I am a 300Wby fan of the highest order. That said, I am all alone in my belief that a good 300 is the best overall plains game caliber to be had?
When one considers it's ranging ability, plus it's considerable power when loaded with heavy bullets, what else can match up with it's versatality? Look at it this way, a 200gr Nosler @ 3000fps is pretty potent medicine up close or far off!

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 07-21-2001).]

Yes I agree that the .300 Weatherby is indeed awesome however I have never really championed high velocity. I think that most people tend to think that the faster the better when in most cases the total opposite is the best medicine. The .300 weatherby's , RUM's , dakotas, lazzeronis, ect are great as long as you know what you are getting into. Also most of these big blasters kick so damn hard. If I'm going to shoot something that nasty then it sure as hell is going to be bigger than a .30 caliber. Long live the .300 H&H

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JR

WoW... where to start John?
I want to state first... that after using a 7 mag for a 2 years I bought a 300 win mag and thought I would never look back. I still own the 300, but it has resulted in several 30-06s. Like the 7 mag verses the 280 rem, the only significant gain I noticed was ... noise.

People often argue that the 300s have 100-200 yards of similar extra trajectory than the 30-06... and so far I agree. However when you actualy get out and shoot, and learn to shoot... this becomes fairly meaningless.

Another consideration... who is going to take a 400-500 yard shot on a high priced,large game trophy (in africa)? I am not sure I would. Its hardley a convinciable thing to do.

Which brings up another point, that many shooter feel and certainly believe, that they are going to make a 500 yards shot on big game. That is... there are shooters that buy the 300 nextbestcartridgeoftheweeksuperboomer and want set out in premeditation to "kilt" them a 5,6,700 yard whatever animal. WHO intentional sets out to shoot any animal at a specified range... especialy a very determind long rang? There are MANY shooter like this... I am sure at every local range. Many of them go through more new rifles a year then they shoot cartridges, and believe that someday the majic everything cartridge will show up, and their neighbor will pick the rifle out for them so they wont be responsiable for making the any wrong decisions. Pathetic. And their lack of decision making, is a direct correlation to a lack of experiance.Most common cartridges will do wonders for you when you learn how to shoot them. Often I have a bigger problem with the people who believe that "with this cartridge... the world will owe them a life"
and they will be infalliable.

See where I am going...? I dont mind the 300s ,I just dont see any gains over a 30-06 but in recoil and noise. If you want "flatter" numbers to look at get a 270 or a 280 they will kill ANY plains game at reasonable ranges.

Smallfry:

I agree for the most part, at least I am a big fan of the .280, it outperforms the .270, and is just effective as the 7mm without the noise and recoil.

And, loosing a wounded whitetail at home is one thing, and loosing a $3500 sable is another. You can take any African plainsgame at any angle under almost any circumstances with the .375 H&H.

And that is why I wouldn't take anything less to Africa, and never have, and why for the last 100 years it's been the all-around rifle cartridge for Africa. Why these guys keep trying to justify that a .22LR is just as good as a .470NE just bewilders me.

Will

Arguing this one is like Religion and Politics.

When you get done, nothings changed.

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May I be half the man my dog thinks I am.

It just serves to further demonstrate that virtually every decision we make represents a compromise. On one hand I totally agree with the selection of a .300 Weatherby Magnum loaded with good 180 & 200 bullets. I'd go so far as to say that, for longish shots, it is a simply fabulous cartridge, providing both good power and "shootability".

However, as a trophy hunter, I agree with Will in finding the heavier caliber long range numbers somewhat more attractive in that they provide a more certain ability to handle most any shot presentation.

The .338's and .375's can also come close in the "shootability" department, if one pays his dues through extensive load development, range sessions and a concerted effort to maximize field usage.

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 07-23-2001).]

I have only owned and used three 30 caliber rifles. All three were M70 pre 64 or Classics. Ranked in descending order

1.) 30-06 Accurrized target rifle good to 800 yards. M70 Pre64.

2.) 300 H&H stock M70 Pre 64 action and barrel bought it in 85 in as new condition. This rifle was practically as accurate as the 06.

3.) 300 Weatherby. M70 Classic left stock. Average accuracy (1.5 MOA @ 100 yds). More recoil than the 300 H&H. In my opinion not enough accuracy to justify the down range benefits of the extra muzzle velocity.

That being said if I had to chose one for hunting out to say 600 yards I would chose the 300 H&H. I have know several guys with the M70 pre 64 in this caliber and all of them were exceedingly accurate (.75 MOA @ 100 yds or better). I believe some of this inherent accuracy is due to the long tapering shoulder which provides a positive on concentric locator for teh cartridge.

Anyway that is my two cents worth. Oh by the way, I would only hunt antelope or deer out to 600 yards with any of the these cartridges, because personal experience has dictated that on larger game they simply do not have the power. This is why I hunt the bigger stuff with 416 Rigby.

Todd E

John,

Thanks for posting an interesting topic.

I too am a fan of the 300 Weatherby, especially when it is put in a Winchester Model 70 Classic that has been built by a good riflesmith.

I favor a 200 grain bullet (Trophy Bonded Bear Claw or Nosler Partition), with a Federal 215M primer, Weatherby or Norma cases, and IMR-7828 powder. It's a great combination for most game.

Good Hunting !

[This message has been edited by Pumba (edited 07-21-2001).]

I've shot the 300 H&H with 200 gr. Noslers at over 3000 FPS for years and have owned and used the 300 Wby., 300 Win. and a few 30-338's...I allways sold them and kept the 300 H&H...I like the feeding and extraction and it is the most efficient of the bunch for whatever thats worth...the 300 H&H and 338 Win. have been my standbys..

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I'm glad to see favorable comments about the .284 family. I recently acquired a Kimber in 280 Remington and so far am very pleased with its performance.

I've also spent some time working on 7x57 loads. Although I haven't gotten the accuracy that I want out of 175-grain offerings, it's still a sweet-shooting rifle, and so far this year has accounted for a respectable Texas white tail.

Still, there's a gap between the 7mm's and an appropriate DGR caliber, and that space could surely be filled with one of the 30-calibers.

A 30-06 with premium bullets, in the hands of a practiced marksman, can and has taken all plains game including eland and sable. The 300 magnums offer a little more insurance and perhaps some psychological advantage, providing the owner is proficient and doesn't make the mistake of substituting power for accuracy.

The "new" magnums have been received by most of us with a fair degree of skepticism, but one caliber that may be worth looking at closely is the 300 WSM. True, it won't do anything the 300 Win Mag can't do, but it may do it more efficiently and possibly a little more accurately.

Most reports on the 300 WSM have been favorable, not just because the gun flacks know where the butter is, but because there is some genuine appreciation for the new round. Faster burn rate and noteworthy accuracy are being mentioned, and of course the basic design--a short, fat cartridge that replicates 300 Win Mag numbers in a lighter rifle--has garnered some serious attention.

Of course, we could end this discussion early by simply allowing that the 375 H&H will do quite well, legally and ballistically, for anything from duikers through elephant. But where is the fun in that?

While topics like this will never result in universal agreement, isn't it a lot better than going to work or playing golf?

John, you really know how to stir the pot here. I'm just surprised more people haven't taken the bait!

I have to admit, I've owned at least one 300 Mag, sometimes several, and at least 2 30-06's at any time over the last 20 years or so and enjoy shooting them no end at the range. I've even worked up loads for my brother's 300 Mag that shoot terrific groups and have accounted for a couple Elk over the years. Even with all this said, for some odd reason I've never hunted with a 300 Mag or a 30-06.
Since I've owned plenty of calibers to use what I want for years, I've always found something that interested me more than the 300 Mags. For deer, I tend to use the 25-06 and 270 (my new/old favorite). When it is time to move up to larger game-Elk, bears, and African Plains game, I always tend to reach past the 300's to something larger- in my case my beloved 338 WM, which has just won me over by being so darned predictable over the years.
For my brother, who is the one-gun-for-everything type. The 300 shines, and I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to use one for just about anything I tend to hunt, from rock chucks at extended ranges to African Plains game. I guess I feel I don't have to make that "compromise" and I can hunt with what I feel comfortable with.
Of course, don't ask me this question next year. I might change my mind completely- those rifles aren't leaving my safe anytime soon, and somebody needs to shoot them so they still feel needed! - Sheister

Sheister-
I too have been fortunate to have owned a number of good rifles over the years, but seem to always gravitate back to a 300 magnum when it's a "money" hunt!
I love the 270, have for years and always enjoy it on a deer/antelope hunt. I thought about taking a 338 to Alaska but decided I wanted the better trajectory of the 300 for my sheep hunting. It did just fine there and also knocked over a big bull moose at 350yds. Dead in his tracks, fell on his nose to a single, well placed 180gr partition.
In Africa, it has accounted for almost everything save lion and buffalo. I'd have to go over my notes but I can't think of over three or four animals that took over one shot to drop.
I guess it's like anything else, you have to use a particular cartridge a lot before you really know what it's about. I've made the 300magnums my most used caliber and for me there is nothing even remotely close to them as an all around caliber. I've used them from Alaska to Africa, in the brush and on the prairies and I've never once wished for something different when I carried one. Can't say the same thing for anything else.

John S.,
I think you're in good company, why I'd wager that even Elgin Gates would agree!

Having never been a huge fan of Weatherby's I have not owned or hunted with any of them other than a .270 Wby I had back in the 80's. Though I do currently have an Ultra Lt Wt Wby in .280 Rem and I really like it.

I have had several .300 mags, and seem to always gravitate towards the .300 H&H or Winchester. I have found that 180 Partitions, or even standard Hornady's or Sierras at 3,000 fps from the muzzle make for a very potent combination. All that I have EVER required for deer or elk. No matter the circumstances.

I have a very accurate Mc Millian stocked Sako in .300 H&H that will place 180 grain Partitions into sub 1 inch groups starting at 3050 fps from the muzzle. I have used it to take a few deer and a rag horn elk all in excess of 300 yards with one shot kills the norm.

The .300 Weatherby is probably just a bit more of a good thing with its added velocity. I have to concur with John S. ; 200 grain slugs at 3000 fps is probably near perfect for 90% of anything we will ever encounter.

FN

Hello
Well I decided to weigh in on this one. I was actually in the situation for a long time of only being able to own one rifle. (finances) So it had to be an all-arounder.
So it was a 30 caliber bolt rifle. As far as cartridge selection goes, if you do not handload, Choice is simple. 30-06 Springfield. If you do handload then look at the Norma,Win,Wby,RUM mags. Just because of the cost, and because there is less selection for these rounds available from the factories. At the time I did not handload.

As for the long shots, well, I don't reccomend them but I understand why people take them. Folks today just have less vacation time to allot to hunting, with increasing cost, fewer hunts per lifetime. So when that trophy animal shows up at extreme yardage, five minutes before the end of legal shooting time, on the last day of a 2 day hunt, that they have been on a 3 year waiting list to take, they are going to take the shot, simply because they may never get another chance and they are demanding rigs that can perform to that level. This is the only justification for what I call the "Generation 2 Magnums" (RUMs, Dakotas, Lazzeronis) to exist because they have atrocious recoil, Howitzer-class muzzle blast, and short barrel life, and a high price tag. Hopefully these people have practiced at those distances before leaving. Sadly some do not.

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Safety & Ethics,Accuracy, Velocity, Energy
Joe M

Interesting observations JoeM

Every time I take my 300 out on a "high priced hunt" I wind-up shooting the animal at under 200 yards. Aside from that my 30-06 and myself are capable in taking a fairly long shot... anything past 400 I dont take unless the animal is small enough to be or be carried in a coyotes mouth. Another consideration would be that the animal has been wounded, then I dont see any quams about shooting him past 400.

Incidently I have NEVER shot a big game animal at 400 yards(between 300-350 has been the farthest on large game). The reason for this is that I have always tried to get closer... and have failed on occasion resulting in spooking them. I am realy the type that would rather climb on the backs of them and swat them with a nitro or any caliber for that matter. No biggy... I have lost much money on some hunts, gone home empty that is, but thats life and thats hunting.

To me... it seems that many people on these forums feel that your a better hunter or a hero if shoot game at some unholy distance... I thought and have always been taught that just the opposite is true.

Well, since I got a new M70 Classic in .300 H&H for graduation, it sure is nice to see all this support for it.

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It is not enough to fight for natural land and the west; it is even more important to enjoy it. While you can. While it's still there. So get out there and hunt and fish and mess around with your friends...Enjoy yourselves, keep your brain in your head and your head firmly attached to the body, the body active and alive, and I promise you this much: I promise you this one sweet victory over our enemies, over those deskbound men with their hearts in a safe-deposit box and their eyes hypnotized by desk calculators. I promise you this: you will outlive the bastards.

- Edward Abbey

Smallfry,
I think it's time you acknowledge that some fellows worked hard for years to "grow" as riflemen and deserve credit for being prepared for the occasional longshot. I hunted woodchucks the entire summer of '92 with my .375 to determine what I could or could not do with it. I've practiced at 350+ yards with all the rifles and scopes I might have occasion to employ at distance.

I am sure that many hunters have developed similar regimens in hope of improving their skills, should a long range shot present itself. Some of my very finest trophies came to me as a reward for such efforts.

Best Regards ... Nick

Nick,

I could not bu notice you mentioned using a 375. I wouldn't necessarily hestitate to use a 375 at long range either if I had been practicing. The reason a 375 has significantly more knock down power than a 300 which I wouldn't use on elk beyond 250 -300 yds.

Todd E

Hi Todd,
Welcome aboard ,
I only mentioned the .375 to emphasize my willingness to "pay my dues" to be ready for whatever shots present themselves, even while hunting plainsgame in Africa with my .375. While I would not hesitate to use it for elk or moose, should I choose to hunt them again, I am not suggesting that anyone do likewise unless they wish to gain valuable shooting experience with a caliber they may someday bring to Africa.

Best Regards ... Nick

Ray.....I know several fellows who own and shoot the 300 H&H and none of them can get 3000 fps with a 200gr bullet if they use a chronograph. Would you please send me some of the magic dust you use...I know I can sell it to these guys.

This thread was oviously intended for guys like me. I worship the .300 Winchester and have taken a pile of game with it, from Alaska to Africa.

But I must admit that the most "accurate" rifle I own is a Ruger M77 with bull-barrel chambered for the .280 Rem. I have been very fortunate to take a pile of game with it and it performed admirably in Africa as well.

Don Martin.

Don Martin.

Nickudu... I thought 400 yards was a long shot. So far that has been my self imposed limit... though I have never taken one that far.

Having said that, I would also like to say that I do acknowledge that people take long shots, farther than I would take... and are quite capiable marksman, more so then myself. I know this because I hunt with some.

My opinion was for the majority that I have experianced, which do not spend time like yourself getting to know their rifles.

Should I start addressing these posts with the forethought that every man is unlimited, regardless of my experiance? Almost sounds like suppression of my opinion.

smallfry

John

WELL TO EACH HIS OWN. I THINK THE BEST GUN FOR ANY KIND OF HUNTING IS THE ONE YOU SHOOT THE BEST NO MATTER WHAT CALIBER IT IS. I HAVE SHOOT MOST EVERYTHING FROM A 222 REMINGTON TO A 375 JRS MAG COMPETITOR PISTOL BUT WHEN IT COMES TO HUNTING. I TAKE THE GUN I SHOOT THE BEST I KNOW WHAT I COME DO WITH IT WHEN I'M HUNTING.

[Should I start addressing these posts with the forethought that every man is unlimited, regardless of my experiance? Almost sounds like suppression of my opinion.

smallfry[/B][/QUOTE]

No, you most certainly should not, Smallfry ... just as you shouldn't make statements inferring that all those who do take such shots think they're heroes for "shooting at some unholy distance". IMHO

Best Regards ... Nick

Nickudu please read more carefully!!

In regard to my experiences I quantified with the word "many" not all as you have suggested. My experiences are not "all" nor is the "many" I have experienced.

Smallfry - It appears I am guilty of not seeing the qualifier and I offer my apologies. I do try to read all posts very carefully before formulating my responses and I often get annoyed at others when it is clear they have not done the same. I may also be a bit "thin skinned" as to the long range shooting thing, as so many seem to frown upon it.

Best Regards ... Nick

I am a real fan of the 30-06 improved and 300Mags/ultramags/wby. I won't even try to shoot an animal at over 300 yrds and feel that getting as close as possible and placing my shots correctly is the only humane thing to do. The animal deserves more respect than sniping it long range.With that said, I'm taking a 300 ultrmag to Tanzania this week as my light rifle. This is based on a trajectory from 50-300 yrds that allows for no more than a 8 inch change. Thats more than enough with my skill set.-Rob

LONG SHOTS ON GAME........ I wanted to mention that I have had very good results on long range game shots with my .300 mag post but one really hates to open that can of worms. But I think its now OPEN.
There are many posters who shoot and hunt more in a few seasons than many of us do in a ten or twenty year period. And many who shoot long range high power rifle matches, long range varmints, etc. They DO become quite proficient and CAN make seemingly amazing shots with regularity. Not talking about a guy who buys into the Remington Ultra Mag or Lazzeroni hype, buys one, mounts a scope and thinks he is an instant long range rifleman. Now THOSE are the guys who DO scare me. I see that sort of behavior around here every season and these untrained long range shooter wound a lot of game.

I work for the Montana Dept of Justice as a rural Highway Patrol Officer. We are also what is known as Ex Offcio State Game Wardens. Meaning we have Warden powers but are not funded by the F&G. Each hunting season I am forced to shoot wounded game or witness one of the Wardens do the job. Many times one can't get much closer than 400-600 yds for a variety of reasons. With a bipod, a rangefinder and a drop chart for my .300 H&H I do pretty well. One must remember we are trying to end the suffering of an already wounded animal , its doomed anyway. We are trying to salvage meat that someone can buy at auction as well as save the animal from being eaten alive by coyotes. We are not just taking a frivilous long range shot for the hell of it.

Believe me I absolutely abhor the untrained long range game wounders, but it can be done efficiently by an experienced rifleman with the proper equipment . And there are few better tools for that job than the .300 magnums.

Just wanted to add my two cents.....FN

Smallfry,
It's obvious, from this thread and other Magnum threads, you aren't of legal age to buy ammunition let alone reloading components, but when you are, look us up and we'll share some real world experiences with you and help you escape your land of Fantasy and closed mindedness. Have you ever entered a comment with something constructive to add, or merely sit back and doubt or second guess the reason's others do what they do. This would be a good site if real data and experiences could be exchanged and if it wasn't for the few that go into the "I doubt that" mode or the "Why would you want to do that" mode. When I pay for a hunt, I will shoot it with whatever, at whatever range, at whatever angle. Humane, I'm killing it!!! It didn't do anything to me, it would be more humane to use spears and at least give the animal a chance to kick my ass, let fair be fair. The gentlemen said it best at the top of the page, most of this is like arguing religion, not sharing real information like it should be. Or maybe the solution is to have the real discussions and the pissing contest seperated some how, so those with to much time on thier hands can join hands in the "Pissing Page" and have at it.

Sledgehammer, I am sorry if I have offended you.

An interesting aside is that I have only stated that 1) My personal limit is 400 yards on large game. 2) That the "many" of the shooters at the 2 ranges I frequent have no biz. ethically, taking a 300 yard shot.

Just been my observation(s) and own personal limitations. Sorry Sledgehammer you have a problem with that. Perhaps you like suppression of opinion? Its interesting that you have personaly attact my charater with a statement that has no basis of observation or personal knowledge on your part.
I am certainly not above apologizing to any that I have offended with my opinion.

I was actually thinking about these types of threads this weekend as I lay in the prone unsupported position at a Service Rifle match. I looked with my naked eye down at that 600 meter target and tried to imagine an elk or moose standing there. I will have to take a scoped rifle with me someday and have a look, seems like a long way!

Mike

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Victory through superior firepower!

DB Bill,
I also have a couple of chronographs as a matter of fact....and no they can't have any of my majic dust, it's not in production any more...I bought a 150 Lb. stainless steel canister of it back in the 50's....Its the old 4831 and I use 77 grs. of it for 3005 (10 shot average)...I also could get 2990 out of the or Norma magnum Rifle powder but alas it gone now..........

May haps you and your buddies are a little weak hearted because any reloading manuel will show 2950 plus a bit more with a number of powders, such as H4831, RL-19, IMR-4831 and AA4350 and surely thats close enough to 3000 for Govt. work and I have never seen a load in a book that I couldn't tweak 25 to 50 FPS for goodness sakes....

Maybe your friends just have short barrels or don't know "come here" from "sick'um"...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray......you're always good to put a smile on my face...I should have known you were using a loooong barrel while my friends were stuck with 24"s.

Ray,

We found in Australia that the old 4831 had gone off and velocities were lower.

In bench guns the 300 Win peaks at about 2950 to 2980 with 200 grainers, before accuracy falls off, with 26 inch barrels, that is with single base powders. Double base powders like Hercules (Re 19 and 22) will add a bit to that velocity, about 50 to 100 f/s.

In my opinion and experience, to get 3000 f/s or 2950 f/s with a 300 Win and the old 4831 (which is what you are referring to) would be a good definition of impossible.

I do not have hands on experience with the 300 H&H and it maybe different.

Mike

Smallfry:

Don't let these guys intimidate you. Just because 1 guy in 100,000 could shoot shoot something at 600 yds and never wound, there are 99,999 who can't. Wind, mirage, the shakes, etc. would make it physically impossible to do it under hunting conditions without ever wounding.

There are damn few rifles that could shoot within a 6" circle at 600 yards to begin with, and there are probably a lot of three-legged deer to prove it.

I started trying to get all scientific and then realised all I was trying to do was prove my prejudices.

My prejudices are that I don't believe a 30mag is better enough at anything IN MY HANDS to warrant the negatives (which I perceive to be noise, recoil and wear) and I plain just like medium velocity and medium weight cartridges.

I say prejudices because I've never owned a magnum nor hunted in Africa.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank Nowakowski:
And many who shoot long range high power rifle matches, long range varmints, etc. They DO become quite proficient and CAN make seemingly amazing shots with regularity.

Frank Nowakowski,
I think you are on the right track with the above statement in that those who are exposed to such activities can not help but come away with greater appreciation for what the rifle is capable of in practiced hands. Varmint shooting is something most of us have available, in one form or other, country wide. I strongly urge any rifleman to involve himself in this pastime to at least some degree, for some period of time, as it will serve him well in the hunting of big game.

Smallfry, Will, Others -

Allow me, please, to explain, further, my thoughts on this long range stuff. Firstly, I am just as ready as you are to get as close as I can and will try my utmost to do so, conditions permitting.

Secondly, I do not hope for or, in any manner, "create" the need for a long shot to fulfill some hidden psychological agenda.

Thirdly, as I have stated earlier, I plan for the worst case scenario, the longish shot and/or the less than perfect shot presentation and such is usually reflected in the rifle I am carrying. I have never enjoyed watching the only good trophy I've seen all hunt, stare at me for 10 minutes and amble away because I was not prepared.
I am not there to acquire hamburger for the kiddies, I am there to take advantage of any decent shooting opportunity I am blessed with and to take a good trophy.

I am speaking here of "reasonably" long range. Ranges the experienced hunter can "feel" are acceptable with his hunting rifle under existent conditions.

I can not speak to the use of any of the specialized rifle / chamberings available today or to the shooting distances sometimes associated with them. Such is another discipline, entirely, and I am not alluding to it within the confines of this post.

Best Regards, Nick