Is there any legal way to take a rifle to Africa(Zim) and leave it for my ph as a gift?

My "bet" would be no. But if you dropped it into a croc and hippo infested

river I'll also bet that there is NO law that says you MUST SUCCEED in

your efforts to get it out of that river. That's my story and I am sticking to it.

Once upon a time, I suspect it was a more common practice than it is in 2007.

You will have to have an exporter apply for export permits from the US and the recipient will need import permits for the receiving country. Even with all of the paperwork in order, I doubt you could legally make the transfer yourself by just taking the gun on the flight with you.

The export permits aren't too difficult to obtain in the US, but that step (as well as a whole host of others) also depend on the receiving country.

If your PH is Botswana, it's probably not a problem to get a US export permit. If he's in Sudan, then it's not going to happen.

If you lose a rifle in one of the African countries today, you're going to have problems when you try to leave the country without it.

And if anyone in the US ever comes looking for it, then you'll probably need a copy of the police report from the country in which it was lost.

All-in-all, it's probably much easier to tip him enough for him to buy a rifle locally.

I havn't found an easy way to export one, and you'll need the permits.

On the other hand, if you have one laying around and loan it to a PH while he's at the shows, who takes it to Africa...

Or as Big Five Jack said, drop it in a river over there...

JPK

I sold my Merkel 470NE to a Zim PH in May with no problems.

If it is in South Africa why not drop it off at a gunshop the PH knows, still get the required export papers and the gunshop will keep the rifle for the PH untill his papers is sorted out. And the worst he would be paying is for a couple of months hopefully not years for the gunshop keeping his rifle for him untill he has the license. I suppose it could work the same in ZIM.

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:
If it is in South Africa why not drop it off at a gunshop the PH knows, still get the required export papers and the gunshop will keep the rifle for the PH untill his papers is sorted out. And the worst he would be paying is for a couple of months hopefully not years for the gunshop keeping his rifle for him untill he has the license. I suppose it could work the same in ZIM.

Don't know about Zim but this would not be advisable in SA.

All gunshops must have the relevant paperwork for ALL the rifles they have in their custody and it would be illegal for them to keep a rifle with them this is here on a temporary importation permit.

The client MUST take a rifle that was brought into SA on a temporary permit out with him when he leaves. Not doing so makes him guilty of a criminal offence... Of course there's nothing that stops him from leaving the country without his rifle but there's a good chance that SAPS may refuse next year's application or even prosecute him when he enters the country on his next trip = NOT WORTH IT.

A way of doing this in SA is for a gunshop to apply for a permanent importation permit for the rifle from SAPS. Once that has been issued (a couple of months) the rifle can be shipped to the gunshop or the client can bring it with him when he comes for his next hunt. The gunshop's representative can collect the rifle from the airport and then be legally in posession of the rifle giving the PH an opportunity to apply for a license for a firearm that is legally in the country. A friend of mine bought a rifle that was "left" at a gunshop by a client in the way you described and his application for a license was declined. Took him a LOOONG time to get his money he paid for it back...

As said in the beginning - I don'know about Zim but this is my advice for SA. What I DO know is that I sure don't want to spend time in a Zim jail...

Chris, your advise is spot on.

My rifle spent some time in Zim Customs and Police before permits were given but no problem and all legal.

in zim have your ph apply for the permit to on the rifle before you go he will need the # and the discription then when he has the permit have him meet you at the airport and instead of putting the rifle on your temp import he shows them the permit for that one it sounds convoluted but it works.

i don't believe you could do it in zambia. there they even have limits of 40 rounds of centerfire ammo the people can have, and they have to log in when they shoot some of it to be able to buy more

If my memory and experience serve you cannot export a firearm from the US without a permit. It must come from a Defense Department agency I believe (I am not at home so cannot look at one I have). It is a VERY long and convulated procedure if you do not have an export license and is restricted to a 'one time' license but that one license may have multiple arms on it. I did this several years ago for 2 PH's in Zimbabwe. I had to get a letter from the Zimbabwean Ambassador stating the PH's were legally able to own the firearms and they in turn had to get licenses before they could recieve them. I had to fill out a rather detailed application and write a letter explaining why I wanted to export the firearms. Seems there was a minimal charge for the license. This was all done and the rifles were sent to the respective PH's. Actually one never got his as he was refused a license by the Zim government and the customs department sold the rifle at auction after which time he was granted a license. Such is life in Zimbabwe when working with the government. To the best of my knowledge there is no other LEGAL way if you do not have an export license. I could not find anyone with a license who was willing to ship the rifles for me. I did not know about this forum at the time or I could have undoubtably found someone to handle it for me. This is the law that they were going to enforce several years ago requiring everyone to get a permit to take sporting rifles out of the country and SCI and others got a waiver for hunters so they need not get the temporary permit, but according to law you cannot leave a rifle in another country for any reason.

For several years it has been illegal for a U.S. citizen to export a firearm to Zimbabwe other than temporarily for his own use.

thats true it is illegal

There are quite a few countries where it is legal on that end to transfer a rifle, and it is pretty easy.

For example, in Namibia, you just fill out a sworn affadavit/declaration form in front of a police officer at the main station and both parties and the police official sign it. This form goes to the airport with your original import permit and the rifle, and they lock it in their safe. The receiving person gets a receipt for bonded safe storage from the airport police officer, and then applies for the proper government permit to own the new firearm and pays the proper amount of import tax. In about 3 weeks (if approved), he goes back with the permit and receipt and picks up his new firearm at the airport out of the safe.

However easy, it is still illegal for you to "export" it on this end in the U.S.

Blank, just as a point of clarification, a U.S. citizen can get a permit from the State Department to permanently export a firearm to Namibia for transfer to a Namibian resident. It is illegal to do so without such a permit, but entirely legal with one.

On the other hand, it is impossible, under current law, for a U.S. citizen to legally export a firearm to Zim, except, as noted above, temporarily for his personal use.

I dont know about zim, but in SA PH's are limited to 4 weapons each; so most dont want or cant accept another rifle. Some years ago, I did lose a shotgun in Zim however; never found the dang thing- missing from camp!

mrlexma: Thanks for the clarification. Yep, that's what I meant, but phrased it wrong. I meant that without the permit beforehand it was illegal.

The paper work from the Zim end is very easy, especially if the PH gets the import permit before the rifle arrives - It took two days to sort one out this year and then paid the duty and had a license next day.

Avoid taking the rifle to South Africa!!!! To get a firearm out of SA and into Zim takes months, and more paperwork than I care about.

If you take a rifle for a PH take him a reall working gun for him ,like a cz 458 open sigthed ,its not expensice and he will appreciate it ,THE RHODESIANS DESERVES ALL OUR HELP.Juan

Thanks guys for all your input and advice. My thoughts are to get it to him at the Dallas show and let him take it back with him.
Thanks again

Seven, If he is on a zim passport he may not be in possesion of a firearm in the USA. He will have to lodge it with a USA dealer and apply for an export permit for moz or namibia. We tried to get an export permit for an SV pistol for our IPSC captain. Support from world body etc. Turned down. Appealed and were supported by the US ambasadore- told to appeal to congress. Bought one via SA- Whole process took two years

Lord, how times have changed! And I don't think 9/11 is entirely the reason. Since I have no desire to be fending off bureaucrats at my age (nor to eat the food in a US Federal prison), I'll simply say that I "knew" someone once back in 1993 who made a gift of his DG rifle to his PH. No one raised a fuss, not on departure from Zimbabwe nor on re entry back into the States. I refuse to believe that the security of the US (or of any other country) is endangered by a simple private gift of one non automatic firearm to a foreigner who is a reputable citizen of his country (Don't PHs go through a rigorous licensing procedure?) -so why the current apparent mountain of red tape? (Just wondering out loud about the ever increasing bureaucracy that adds up to nothing accomplished)

quote:

Originally posted by gerrys375:
...EVER INCREASING BUREAUCRACY...

The bureaucrats believe in the idiotic idea that they

look like they are "Doing Something" for the safety of

the masses when they "over police" the good guys because,

they can't adequately police the bad guys and stay within

their budgets because, of institutional inefficiency and

the ever present doctrine of "It's good enough for govern-

ment work". I know what I'm talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by gerrys375:
Lord, how times have changed! And I don't think 9/11 is entirely the reason. Since I have no desire to be fending off bureaucrats at my age (nor to eat the food in a US Federal prison), I'll simply say that I "knew" someone once back in 1993 who made a gift of his DG rifle to his PH. No one raised a fuss, not on departure from Zimbabwe nor on re entry back into the States. I refuse to believe that the security of the US (or of any other country) is endangered by a simple private gift of one non automatic firearm to a foreigner who is a reputable citizen of his country (Don't PHs go through a rigorous licensing procedure?) -so why the current apparent mountain of red tape? (Just wondering out loud about the ever increasing bureaucracy that adds up to nothing accomplished)

I can't actually believe anyone's national security would be threatened by the simple gift of even one automatic firearm.

But then I marvel now, when I look back, at how I managed to get through childhood without a felony record.

It doesn't seem that long ago that I was a kid in elementary school, and one of the items that the school told me to bring for certain field trips involving nature and science was a knife. I remember well, because for one trip I was specifically told to bring a sheath knife, not a folding knife. I had to borrow one from my brother. So we'd all be gathered on school property waiting for the bus to take us on the field trip, showing off our sheath knives as the others showed off theirs. With the teachers looking on.

Do that now, and not only would you be violating several dozen "zero tolerance" policies but your 8 year old butt would be tased by the cops.

In the intervening years, apparently a bunch of people with over active imaginations have managed to close all the "loopholes" that enabled me to avoid prosecution for being a boy. The "loopholes" being the fact it was perfectly legal to do then what you can't do now.

Apparently, now that it's a universal right for everyone to go through life without ever having to "feel threatened" regardless of whether the threat they managed to conjure up and feel was even sane, we are required to submit to a lot of regulation to try and satisfy them.

I speak under correction but the ph can apply for the lisence and a import permit the client for export permit. the rifle will only be able to stay be hind once the lisence has been issued and the rifle declared thrue customs to have the necesary taxes paid so you need at least 1-1.5 years depending if he has his competancy certificate

China, the Zero Tolerance you talk about should be called Zero Common Sense law. How in the hell can a country boy who goes to the ranch or lease every day drive the same vehicle to school the next day. I gave my son my old toyota hunting truck and by the time we got through taking out all the "contraband" there wasn't a damn thing left but the chassis and motor! I drove out to the ranch last Friday and had a coyote in a snare, couldn't find anything sharp enough to even cut off his ears for the bounty money! I've got no tolerance for their damn zero tolerance rule!!!!!

Back in school. Carried a knife every day. During hunting season, there was usually a firearm in my vehicle so I could skip class and get a little hunting in. I went to Catholic school, the brothers knew that and generally waived when I left. One actually asked to borrow my knife (that I couldn't have, but he knew I did). Don't know what's coming with the world. (Yes, I do, and it ain't good).

USA, members, find a book by the name of "UNINTENDED CONSEQUINCES " I think the title is,

Read weep and realize the truth

Oh yeah, written by John Ross,

Yeah, Walter, some of us know just how bad it's getting. At age 66, I remember many of the things mentioned here.

Took a .38 to the Bahamas back in 1966 and was told I had better take it back by my employer. So, wearing a suit and tie, I just stuck in in my hip pocket and flew back to Miami. No problem. What a world. The powerful sleep uneasily in their beds each night.

Growing up a bit redneck...the costume of the day for school was a pair of Wranglers, boots, a belt with my name on the back, a snap front western shirt and a goose down vest most of the school year. The accessories with this outfit were a Buck 110 folder in a leather belt sheath, a belt buckle slightly smaller than a full moon hub cap and a can of Skoal in my back pocket for the cool faded ring effect. In my truck parked in the school lot and secured in the redneck required back glass double gun rack was a 22 rifle and a Winchester pump shotgun. I ain't quite a dnonsaur yet, but man time have certainly changed. A friend of my daughter, who happens to be one of the most harmless boys I have ever met, got expelled from school for having a pocket knife in his book bag he forgot to remove from a weekend spent building a school robot.

As for leaving a gun for a PH. I know a guy who knows a guy who just totes them over and doesn't bring them back. Of course this guy runs with scissors, eats and swims right away and flirts with married red headed women. So he likes the juice of sticking it to the man once in a while.

Perry

Perry!
Man you said a mouth full there!

I used to re-finish rifles in my shop room at my high school, and build complete rifles in our machine shop at work at American airlines!
Try either of those things today, you would be in a federal hotel in short order!
When I was a kid I wished to have lived in the good old times, not realizing I was liveing in them without even knowing it!

quote:

Originally posted by Kwan:
USA, members, find a book by the name of "UNINTENDED CONSEQUINCES " I think the title is,

Read weep and realize the truth

I read that book several years ago and promtly bought several more copies and gave them to my friends

best damn book I have read in a very long time-----a must read!

If this rifle was going to be a gift to the PH, why not just wait until you are over there hunting with him and arrange to go to a gun shop and just let him pick out what he wants and then hand him the $$$$.

Maybe I missed something in the thread somewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Perry!
..............................................
When I was a kid I wished to have lived in the good old times, not realizing I was liveing in them without even knowing it!

I would never have imagined finding such a gem in a thread about anything. Real food for thought for a 63 year young guy!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

quote:

If this rifle was going to be a gift to the PH, why not just wait until you are over there hunting with him and arrange to go to a gun shop and just let him pick out what he wants and then hand him the $$$$.

Because rifles here costs 2-3 times what they cost there.

Please overthink and overanalyze this. Just leave the damned thing there (if the PH even wants it). Let the PH decide how to handle the explaination of acquisition on his end should the need arise. If anyone asks you about it, tell them an elephant stepped on it; Oops, I forgot it, damn the luck; a munt stole it; you dropped it out of a boat into crock & hippo infested waters; etc, etc, etc...
It isn't that hard...
Brian
(edit - now, lawfully, I have no idea how to get a rifle to a PH, but the above works just as well - I have yet to meet a PH who couldn't "make a plan" to keep a good rifle)

So let me get this straight, you would gripe if someone handed you 6k for a 2k rifle???????

Mother Gue Never Raised Such A Foolish Child!

quote:

UNINTENDED CONSEQUINCES

Did an internet search for a used copy of "UNINTENDED CONSEQUINCES" and was amazed at the asking prices...They varied from $60 to $180, the local library doesn't even list it. Anyone know where I can get one for a "resaonable" price?

Jim