3 Leaf Express Sights?

22 March 2002, 16:54

<T/Jazz>

Gentlemen I humble myself, to ask of those who can answer this question, which has been posing a bit of concern, to my brain chips lately.

Why does a dangerous game rifle, have 3 fold down leaf sights on a so called Express Rifle? I would think to draw a conclusion that this aspect of gunsmithing could bring about a possible clamity in the field while hunting something which would like to stick tooth or claw into ones backside. Thanks you for your responses kind sirs!

22 March 2002, 17:02

<Don G>

Actually at 25 yards it does not matter greatly which leaf is up! The 3 leaf is traditional due to the rifles being used for all purposes in the good old days.

Nowadays they just look right. If you were a PH and only needed a stopper a fixed single leaf is better.

Don

22 March 2002, 17:09

GeorgeS

I echo Don's statement. My .470 Capstick has a 3-leaf sight, but I don't think I'd ever shoot it at 300yds!
Actually, I should try it just to see what the drop on a .474 500gr. starting at 2380fps would be

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

22 March 2002, 19:28

Rusty Gunn

My 375 has a three-leaf sight. Once an accurate load is determined, I'll set the fixed leaf to 50-75 yards(undecided). The other two may be 100 and 150(or 200). I don't think I'd use them much, but at least they'd be available when I do.
Were I to do this again, I may go with a fixed leaf with one folder. ~~~Suluuq

23 March 2002, 01:28

<Bjorn Klappe>

In the old days, before scopes, rifles had some sort of sights were you could compensate shooting distances. Look at old Mausers or Lee enfields, they had a sliding scale up to 1000 meter/yards.

Hunting rifles especially those made for African hunting came equipped with one fixed sifght and two fold up leaf sights, for 100, 200 and 300 yards.

It worked fine but when hunters starting to use scopes they were not nessecary any more but it looked cool and smelled of old times so some makers kept them.

A backup rifle, a rifle used when the s-t hits the fan, never have folding sights. There is no time for fiddling around with sight leafs.

Bjorn

23 March 2002, 03:53

<allen day>

Truthfully, in today's world, the "three leaf" concept is more a cosmetic jesture than it is a functional one. It harks back to the good 'ol days of the British Empire and all that bloody rot (quite traditional, don't you know!) when scopes were a rarity, and those that exisited where not even close to reliable enough or functional enough for extended use in the bush or for use against dangerous game.

But a three-leaf open rear sight system doesn't really hurt anything, provided that the primary sight is a rigid, non-folding shallow "V" that stays up no matter what.

Since Blessed Tradition doesn't mean much of anything to me from the standpoint of cosmetics, and since I don't care for British rifle concepts, I'll nominate a very modern open sight setup that's the best I've ever used.

It's EAW's rigid, milled-steel, non-folding skeletonized rear sight (windage adjustable only) with elevation-adjustable ramped front sight. Installed properly (with screws & solder), this is the quickest to use and generally most functional open sight system there is. The target isn't obscured, and sight acquisition is instantaneous.

I know of at least a couple of African PHs who are currently using .458 Lott rifles equipped with these sights, and no other sighing apparatus.

AD

[This message has been edited by allen day (edited 03-22-2002).]

23 March 2002, 06:06

MacD37

I think everyone is right about the reason for the three leaf sights, today, is nostalgic, more than anything else for most people. Also, the reasons they were installed in the old days is correct as well.

Haveing yealded to all that, I will say,they do have some utility, even today. The sight that is best utilized today is a modified version of the old THREE LEAF. I certainly would not remove one of the old ones that was installed by the maker, but on my BOLT rifles the sight would be a standing wide V, for quick 100 yds or less life saver shots, but with a flip up that is set for the same distance, only with a fine aperture for precise shot placement at 100 yds or less where one had to make a shot through a HOLE in the bush. The second flip up being set for 200 yds, so that same shot could be taken, without the muzzle hideing your target at 200 yds. This one with a fine aperture as well. Here you have the traditional look, but the sight is a Safari saver, if something happens to your scope, when you are not close to your spare scope.

On my double rifles, what ever comes on it from the maker, if it is an old rifle, but if NEW The three blade rear sight would be installed. The standing fixed sight being the wide V, the next, or the first flip up, being flipped up against the face of the standing blade, with the fine cut exactly the same elevation as the wide V, and one for 200yds cut fine. There seems to be some idea that a double rifle is not usable at 200 yds by many shooters, but this isn't true, especially if they have a factory regulated flip up that is stamped for a given range. I have seen some that the flip up was sighted for only one barrel, in the longer ranges, usually the right barrel.

The adjustable sights like the Ashleys or the one Allen mentions are nice as back up on a bolt rifle, but are simply not right for doubles, IMO. I like the peep sights that are installed on the QR bases for your scope, to be installed by the shooter when needed. I would suggest a trapdoor grip cap for this sight though. Things that are not solidly mounted to your rifle have a way of being lost at the wrong time!

Are these flip up so-called EXPRESS SIGHTS neseccary, NO, but some form of iron sights are neseccary,IMO, if a rifle is set up for hunting far from home. I simply cannot see spending $6K up for a rifle, and not insisting on a quality set of back up iron sights,even if they are never used, on a rifle that is to be used 20,000 miles from your gunsmith! The type of irons is the owner's choice, however, and the old one standing and two or three flip ups is mostly nostalgic to most buyers, and I find that most shooters do not evey regulate them, and in that case they ar useless!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

23 March 2002, 06:31

<DMCI>

Let me say a word about that:

TRADITION!

23 March 2002, 10:04

<allen day>

Mac, you're right, those sights I described wouldn't be "cricket" with a double, and that's the truth.

"Tradtition"....... What about it? Do we revert to Rook rifles? Baker's muzzle loaders? Coonskins & caplocks? Longbows? Spears? David's sling? Tarzan'sheath knife?

Just where the heck is the line drawn, anyway? It appears as though certain aspects of this Sacred Cow we call "Tradition" is acceptable, and some isn't!

AD

23 March 2002, 10:23

Atkinson

The 3 leaf guns I've had all had the sights regualated at 50 ( the standing sight) and 100 and 200 and they all hit at that zero..It's absolutely amazing how accurate they can be.

Probably a better solution is one standing sight sighted in at the distance you like, say 1" high at 100 (will be same at 50) dead on at 150 yds. and about 4or5"'s low at 200 yds..that about covers the whole shooten match...Center hold on a Buffs foreleg will get him good at up to say 200 yds and a top hold a long ways off, but buff shouldn't be shot beyond 100 yds max IMHO.., but one never knows when a 62" Kudu might pop up at 300 and I'd give him a try with a big bore and the above iron sight system....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

23 March 2002, 11:53

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by allen day:
Mac>>SNIP<<< "Tradtition"....... What about it? Do we revert to Rook rifles? Baker's muzzle loaders? Coonskins & caplocks? Longbows? Spears? David's sling? Tarzan'sheath knife? Just where the heck is the line drawn, anyway? It appears as though certain aspects of this Sacred Cow we call "Tradition" is acceptable, and some isn't!
AD

Allen, For some reason I detect a distinct tone of sarcasm,and condescending attitude, on your part,if this is only paranoia on my part, then I apologize.

I don't think I reccomended anyone should have any sight, or rifle, or anything else, they do not consider effective for THEIR own purposes. All I was saying is, eventhough the old express sights are mostly nostalgic to most shooters, they can be effective as well. This is what my answer pertains to. I believe the question that was asked, if I understand it correctly, was, in effect, are the old flip ups so-called EXPRESS sights usefull, or just there for looks. My answer is "MOSTLY NOSTALGIC", but can be useful as well. I see nothing in that answer that would indicate I wanted anyone to ware a coonskin cap!

As far as coonskin caps, and Tarzans knife if that's what you want, then go for it! That in no way changes the fact that a properly mounted set of quality iron sights can be a life saver on occasion, not to mention a safari saver, if a scope is damaged while on stalk, and away from your spare scope, or extra rifle. A dropped, and damaged scope on a rifle with no QR scope, and Iron sights at a critical moment in a follow up confrontation, could be a little disconcerting, don't you think?

Maybe my answer to this question was not clear, and My posts are often missunderstood
but that is not the fault of the reader, but in the verbage of an OLD ILLITERATE Davey Crocket type who wares a coonskin cap, and smells of black powder soot!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

23 March 2002, 14:35

<allen day>

Mac, my first set of comments on my last post was directed at you, and it was meant quite sincerely. My preferred sights WOULDN'T be appropriate on a double - pure and simple.

Now the part of my response that came off as snotty is a result of my recent campaign against some of the Sacred Cows of the hunting world. To be honest, it's been an uphill battle!

I'm just waiting to DMCI to revisit this thread and take a swipe at me over those snide comments of mine.......

Allen

23 March 2002, 16:05

<DMCI>

I can't disagree.

23 March 2002, 16:15

<T/Jazz>

HOLD THE NOTES PLEASE....DO RAY ME~~~~~~

Now there is no need for harhness of words on my posts behalf gentlemen. I thank you all of you for your words of explanation.

There need not be any unkind words dished out, life is simply to short and there are many songs to sing.

23 March 2002, 16:18

<T/Jazz>

Sorry the word is "harshness".....In a hurry the Kansas Illinois ball game is on, gotta go and watch our team play.

23 March 2002, 17:42

KurtC

The purpose for express sights is as valid today as it was 100 years ago: a readily available blade regulated for a given load at a set distance. Just flip up the blade you need, aim and fire. No adjustments or holdover needed, with the only guesswork being your estimation of distance to target.

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24 March 2002, 07:09

MacD37

As I said, Allen, If it is only paranoia on my part, I apologize!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

24 March 2002, 09:45

Atkinson

Allen

Tradition, Nostalgia, Sacred Cow, now I am aware that all these things are relitively meaningless to you and for that I feel sorry for you but that is your call and your right and you are satisfied with it and I respect that..

By the same token those terms mean everything to me and I will be the one to determine where it stops as far as I'm concerned. In my case, It does not go to coonskin caps and Tarzans knife, but to double rifles, 404 Jefferys, iron sights and English rifles with wood stocks, but now thats my choice, isn't it.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com