So, how many elephants have you hunted with a rifle or with a bow?

Any hunt where the weapon chosen is the feature of the hunt, rather than the game is a stunt hunt. This would apply to bows, 45/70's, 275 Rigby's or any other choice of weapon.

Killing an elephant with a heart lung shot is something not even old fat men could often mess up. But that ain't elephant hunting either.

Gtting to ten of twelve yards of a BULL elephant isn't the world of trouble, and elephant bleed out pretty quickly with a big bore hole through their heart and lungs. The only problem is that every bow elephant hunt I can find to read about or see, including by our own JBDeRunz ends up a slow, unessecary, inexcusable death of the one game animal which possesses inteligent thought and emotion. Or the bow hunter sees enough and kills the ele, or has the PH kill the ele with a rifle.

The woman's hunt that began this thread is a fucking discrace, and puts paid to the bulls shit about elephants not noticing that they've been pierced and are going to die. Run like a scolded cat and die a slow and lingering death. Yea, and that is equivelent to instant death from a brain shot, or very quick death from a heart lung shot... Hell no, it isn't.

When a bow can kill an elephant as rapidly with a heart lung shot as will a shot from a 375H&H or better, I'll agree that elephant hunting with a bow is ethical - might still be a stunt hunt (weapon featured more than the hunt), but it would be ethical. That time may be now, but the evidence is sure lacking. None of the videos or reports I've read pointed to anything but inhumane misery.

JPK

Well JPK, I have to admitt that this will be my first elephant. My PH on the other hand has probably guided more bow hunters to kill elephants than any PH in Zim.
I would say that makes him pretty experienced

Funny how when someone posts contrary to some peoples opinions, all that results is name calling and the old "stunt" reference. Will, you and mrlexma certainly are "old" experienced hunters with lots of good knowledge, but it's obvious you don't know shit about bow hunting. Best stick to the things you actually know about.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Have any of you ding dongs that can't see anything wrong with hunting elephants with a bow ever hunted one?

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Funny how when someone posts contrary to some peoples opinions, all that results is name calling and the old "stunt" reference. Will, you and mrlexma certainly are "old" experienced hunters with lots of good knowledge, but it's obvious you don't know shit about bow hunting. Best stick to the things you actually know about.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Have any of you ding dongs that can't see anything wrong with hunting elephants with a bow ever hunted one?

The sad part is, people think if THEY are not capable of doing something, then others should not be allowed to do it.

I would never hunt ANYTHING with a bow, let alone an elephant. But that does not mean those who have hunted with bows and know how to use them should not not.

To each is his own.

Actually, this turning into that same silly old argument about elephants.

If one uses anything less than 500 caliber, then it is a stunt!

Those same people would cut off the sleeves of their shirts so they can look like those of hunters of the past, and use double rifles, so they hunt like those in the past.

But, they will accuse anyone who wants to go a bit further and use a bow - or a spear for that matter - as being a stuntman.

He is paying for his hunt, and he can bloody well hunt as he wishes.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.C:
Well JPK, I have to admitt that this will be my first elephant. My PH on the other hand has probably guided more bow hunters to kill elephants than any PH in Zim.
I would say that makes him pretty experienced

Who is your PH?

Everyone who hunts elephants starts at number one. My advice is to go hunt one with a suitable rifle first, or tag along on a rifle hunt first. I would do it with a bow, if was into bow hunting and if it could be done humanely. (And if I trusted the PH with my life, and I won't ever do that with another human being when it is unessecary, as in a sport hunt.)

Point me to some video where the elephant is killed cleanly and quickly. I'm open to the idea, but EVERY bow elephant hunt I've seen turns into a clusterf--cked discrace, and the elephant deserves better.

Not every elephant I have shot dropped to a proper brain shot, but all died within a minute or two at most. Except one that charged from out of the blue, he ended up with a headache and no more.

JPK

I apologize.

I did not mean to suggest that any particular "bow hunter" who has posted in this thread as being willing to "hunt" elephant with a bow (while of course being accompanied by a rifle-armed PH as a back up) is himself stupid or is participating in a stunt.

What I meant to say is that anyone who would do such a thing is stupid, and that under all such circumstances it is no more than a deluded, ego-stroking stunt.

Are we clear now?

I realize that I should know better than to get involved in this kind of debate. But the sheer idiocy (or perhaps it is self-delusion) of the proponents fairly demands a harsh and unforgiving response.

Impressionable children might read these threads, after all.

But as I said, no particular offense is intended.

And all of this is just my humble opinion. (Formed of course by a certain amount of directly apposite life experience - and my own ration of long-suffering dealings and consequently hard-earned impatience with fools. )

By all means, "hunt" elephant with a bow. I would never presume to protect anyone from his own actions or delusions.

But please don't do such a stupid thing and then expect the respect, or even the acknowledgment, of anyone who knows what elephant hunting is all about.

I will have to admit to ignorance when it comes to elephant hunting since I have yet to do my hunt. Any argument I may make is based on what my PH has told me.
I am curious as to whether mrlexma and JPK would make the same arguments against bow hunting something I am very familiar with brown bear hunting.
It would be my argument that using a gun on brown bears is not hunting it is just shooting. Since I have yet to do the elephant hunt I will concede my ignorance.

Man, I know better than to wade into this one but sometimes one has to post his opinion...

I have to agree with the experience on these boards and say that, while you certainly can kill an elephant with a bow, it borders on being a stunt. I think the goal of every hunter is to take his quarry as efficiently and humanely as possible. The difficulty in accomplishing that with a bow on elephant is magnified by what others have pointed out before me. Namely, the heavy hide and bone structure of an elephant make him a challenging target when everything is perfect muchless when it is not, the thick jess in which you hunt elephant increases the possibilty of deflection causing an arrow to veer off course and wound the beast and the fact you cannot reload quickly or count on foot pounds of energy to get you out of a bind in the event of a cock-up. Plus, every video I have seen of an arrowed elephant has not shown me a "clean" kill.

I agree if everything is perfect it can be done. But this is not an animal where marginal shots can sometimes be counted on to bring the animal to bag and an animal the size of a buff, rhino or elephant deserves better... just my $.02 worth.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.C:
I will have to admit to ignorance when it comes to elephant hunting since I have yet to do my hunt. Any argument I may make is based on what my PH has told me.
I am curious as to whether mrlexma and JPK would make the same arguments against bow hunting something I am very familiar with brown bear hunting.
It would be my argument that using a gun on brown bears is not hunting it is just shooting. Since I have yet to do the elephant hunt I will concede my ignorance.

So, who is your PH?

Any hunt for dangerous game that includes shooting or arrowing or however killing the dangerous game outside of the range at which the game is dangerous looses its appeal. For example, shooting an elephant at 75 yards is missing the point of elephant hunting. Not that I wouldn't take a 75yd shot on a big 70lb or 80lb tusker, I might if for some reason I couldn't get closer. But I'll acknowledge that it would be collecting ivory at the expense of a dangerous game hunt.

Have any referrals to any bow elephant hunts whre the elephant is cleanly, humanely killed?

JPK

To have an apples to apple comparison, take brain shots out of the equation.

Since heart and lung shots kill by causing bleeding, which is going to cause a bigger, permanent wound channel through the heart and lungs of an elephant: a solid out of a .375, 416, or .470, or a razor sharp broadhead an inch and a quarter in width?

Good luck on your hunt Dr. C. I think you'll be in good hands!

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by KC Carlin:
I would be curious to know what the PH's feel the level of competency is from the average rifle hunter compared to the average bow hunter.

So a guy using a bow is a stunt hunter....
Regardless of how skilled of a hunter he is, and regardless of how efficent of a kill he makes.
The simple fact that this person used a bow makes it a stunt. I DONT THINK SO!

So out of the thousands of old men shooting too big of a rifle, making shitty shots and having the PH actually kill the ele isn't a stunt..... RIGHTTTT.

I used to be a bowhunter, but as I got older and decided that I wanted to try like hell not to ever wound and lose another animal so I am 100% a rifle hunter now.

I don't like the increased chances of wounding an animal and losing it that bowhunting offers.

For me hunting is about respecting the animal enough that I won't risk shooting them with an inferior weapon. So bowhunting is out.

If you have money and I do not have to take care of you or your family with my tax dollars when you are dead or crippled, then have at it. You can also have unprotected sex with the natives too if you like going where sane people fear to tread. Make sure to post the video (just the elephant hunt only if you do not mind.)

I have respect for someone who can successfully pull a 100lb bow and shoot it accurately at varying hunting distances, many people will find the jump from 70-90/100 to be too great. There are many things to consider though, such as getting the spine of the arrow right when making heavy arrows, making sure the fletches are able to stabilize the broadhead, etc, etc. This takes a lot of tinkering and hours of practise when tuning. Just because you can pull a 90lb bow, does not mean that you should be an elephant hunter. Your effective range is very limited with heavy arrows, as they drop extremely fast, making range a limiting factor. If you know your limitations and your equimpents limitations then when you are offered the perfect broadside shot it can be successful....or sometimes not if you hit bone and deflect. You will probably also want a small cutting diameter broadhead to get max penetration, which also means slower bleed-out on an animal that has a lot of blood. Again, I see it as a situation where lots of things can go wrong (a charge for one) but I do respect someone who has put hours of dedication in to it and has the right equipment (egos aside).

D99 - Glad you knew when to call it quits. Sounds like it wasn't soon enough if the reason was you didn't want to wound/loose another animal. Not a very solid reason, more like an excuse for not wanting to put in the practice time and preserverance to be a true bowhunter??

At least three National, totally independent surveys have proven time and time again that the weapon choice, rifle, muzzle loader or bow and arrow has no significant difference in the frequency of wounding Big Game animals, period. Sorry, but that excuse just doesn't hold water.

Calling a bow an inferior weapon is just more proof and another excuse you are using for not bow hunting. Various studies have proved this point also. Stick to the facts D99, and I for one don't blame you for not bow hunting anymore, but at least tell the truth and don't make up your reasons to do so. Give me a break!!

If you don't recognize the facts I have presented, then I seriously doubt you were ever a true bow hunter. JMHO

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by D99:

quote:

Originally posted by KC Carlin:
I would be curious to know what the PH's feel the level of competency is from the average rifle hunter compared to the average bow hunter.

So a guy using a bow is a stunt hunter....
Regardless of how skilled of a hunter he is, and regardless of how efficent of a kill he makes.
The simple fact that this person used a bow makes it a stunt. I DONT THINK SO!

So out of the thousands of old men shooting too big of a rifle, making shitty shots and having the PH actually kill the ele isn't a stunt..... RIGHTTTT.

I used to be a bowhunter, but as I got older and decided that I wanted to try like hell not to ever wound and lose another animal so I am 100% a rifle hunter now.

I don't like the increased chances of wounding an animal and losing it that bowhunting offers.

For me hunting is about respecting the animal enough that I won't risk shooting them with an inferior weapon. So bowhunting is out.

JPK, I will ask my PH if I can post his name here. I will not do so without his permission first. I will say that anyone who knows about bow hunting elephants in Zim would most definately know to whom I refer.

Larry Sellers,

Facts? You have to show your sources to call them facts, you haven't shown any sources for your "facts" at all.

I choose not to lose another animal to bowhunting, it is my choice not yours to accept or deny. I want the animal to die now, not in an hour and I don't want to wait an hour for the animal to bleed to death. I don't see anything sporting or sportmenlike about that. Your obviously an expert bowhunter and never lose any animals in the field.

A rifle shooting a .338 diameter bullet of 250 grains at 2700 feet per second causes damage to an elks vitals in multiple ways:
1. Hydrostatic, through secondary water, bone, and hard tissue gas expansion.
2. Penetration, the bullet penetrating bone, vitals, and non essential soft tissue creating a wound channel.
3. Shock, through an upset in the nervous system caused by the violent loss of fluids via hydrostatic damage and penetration.
4. Momentum, through the reaction of a 250 grain bullet hitting soft and hard tissue and pushing the animal off balance.

A sharpened stick cuts, and if it is put into the right place it will penetrate. A rifle doesn't need a perfect quartering away shot angle to kill something.

I don't want to ever lose another animal, I am sure that is not going to happen. I plan on hunting until I am no longer physically able to do so. In a lifetime of hunting the odds are even with a very accurate rifle, the best scope I can afford and the best bullets for the game the odds are against me. But with a bow the factor of losing animals goes up more than I want to deal with.

A rifle is a more lethal weapon than a bow! A bow has too many things that have to be perfect for it to work.

The Camp Ripley study showed a 13% loss rate among deer shot by bowhunters, this is a pro bowhunting study but I'll show it's numbers even though earlier studies by the University of Oregon, and Montana state showed bowhunting losses as high as 40%; http://www.thearcher.com/depot...e/BowhuntingBook.pdf This study shows numbers around 11% and that to me is outrageous. That means I will lose over 10% of the animals I shoot with a bow and hit.

Here are a few more reasons I hunt with a rifle.

1. Faster follow up shot for a bad or unknown shot. Most times a second shot with a bow is not available.
2. Match cartridge to distance and animal. With a bow you don't have the same variety.
3. Use of optical sights.
4. Increased range, increased accuracy, and increased performance of projectiles.
5. Shot angles and animal position is less critical.

I'm a bowhunter. Have done two bowhunting trips to Africa. I think bowhunting for plains game is great, no -- incredible. I shoot 70 lbs. Could do 80 easily and probably could get to 100 with a bit of work. I think hunting dangerous game with a bow is -- maybe this this too strong a word -- unconscionable.

My wife said I could stick something that could kill me with a sharp stick as soon as the kids were out of college (she's a very understanding and practical woman). Sounds like good advice.

More importantly, however, you are not the only person you put at risk by any means. In fact,in the case of a wounded animal, your trackers are at much greater risk -- they go in first -- unarmed. Been there, done that -- pretty dicey even with a rifle. I couldn't subject the trackers to that risk on a buffalo with a bow, much less an elephant.

That's just my personal opinion, and isn't worth the cyberspace it's written on.

Dr. C,

Have a great hunt!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Funny how when someone posts contrary to some peoples opinions, all that results is name calling and the old "stunt" reference. Will, you and mrlexma certainly are "old" experienced hunters with lots of good knowledge, but it's obvious you don't know shit about bow hunting. Best stick to the things you actually know about.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Have any of you ding dongs that can't see anything wrong with hunting elephants with a bow ever hunted one?

The sad part is, people think if THEY are not capable of doing something, then others should not be allowed to do it.

I would never hunt ANYTHING with a bow, let alone an elephant. But that does not mean those who have hunted with bows and know how to use them should not not.

To each is his own.

Actually, this turning into that same silly old argument about elephants.

If one uses anything less than 500 caliber, then it is a stunt!

Those same people would cut off the sleeves of their shirts so they can look like those of hunters of the past, and use double rifles, so they hunt like those in the past.

But, they will accuse anyone who wants to go a bit further and use a bow - or a spear for that matter - as being a stuntman.

He is paying for his hunt, and he can bloody well hunt as he wishes.

I assume this is all directed at me!

But I don't give a shit, it is still a stupid stunt. Just because someone can kill an elephant with a bow, eventually, doesn't make it acceptable, to me. I see deer running around with arrow stuck through their necks, which I assume die at some point.

How many friggin' times does John Taylor have to be quoted, just because some caliber is capable of killing an elephant doesn't make it an elephant gun? And to even consider a bow as elephant fodder is simply asinine.

Hey, there is nothing illegal about it and not many a PH would pass up the money, so why not? Hell, the PH will wind up killing it anyway and it makes for fun elephant-dinging practice, and practice at blowing smoke up the clients ass "that was a great shot, and the bull would have died soon, but I was afraid he was going to get away across the boundary", and so on and so on.

We all hear about the great bow shots, but we never seem to hear about the countless screw ups, gun or bow.

I was sponsored into the Houston Safari Club by a great hunter. A hunter who has successfully taken the Big 5 with a bow. He is a great hunter, an ethical hunter, his skills are just greater than mine. It's not something I would attempt.

quote:

I assume this is all directed at me!

No Bill it is isn't directed at you.

But directed to all who claim THEIR way of hunting anytjing is the right way, and any other is wrong.

As stared above, I woulde never hunt anything with a bow, neither would I hunt anything with a double rifle.

But that does not mean I will criticize those who do.

I have people come in here who make fun of me using a shooting stick when I hunt - and those same people have never hunted anything on foor.

All the hunting they have evre done was from the back of a car!

My point is if one is good with a bow, and he wants to hunt an elephant, good luck to him.

The argument of those who says he should not be backed up with a rifle is just silly.

As right now I am not sure I know of any place one can hunt where he is not backed up with a PH armed with a rifle.

Of course, we have those who might have some problems with their own pride and say they wish they could hunt without a PH backing them up.

Sure, I am just as wishefull as any of you who wish we were born a 100 years earlier, and might have had the chance to go hunting on our own.

Today, that just ain't going to hapen.

Thanks D99 - You just convinced me and every other real bow hunter reading this, you never were and will never be a bow hunter. That's cool and your choice. Stay with the gun, we will all be the best for it, but no need to criticize the rest of us for your failures. Have a bunch of great gun hunting in the future. Since I truly enjoy and participate in both bow and gun hunts, get the best of both Worlds. And I don't knock either way, Hunters choice.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by D99:
Larry Sellers,

Facts? You have to show your sources to call them facts, you haven't shown any sources for your "facts" at all.

I choose not to lose another animal to bowhunting, it is my choice not yours to accept or deny. I want the animal to die now, not in an hour and I don't want to wait an hour for the animal to bleed to death. I don't see anything sporting or sportmenlike about that. Your obviously an expert bowhunter and never lose any animals in the field.

A rifle shooting a .338 diameter bullet of 250 grains at 2700 feet per second causes damage to an elks vitals in multiple ways:
1. Hydrostatic, through secondary water, bone, and hard tissue gas expansion.
2. Penetration, the bullet penetrating bone, vitals, and non essential soft tissue creating a wound channel.
3. Shock, through an upset in the nervous system caused by the violent loss of fluids via hydrostatic damage and penetration.
4. Momentum, through the reaction of a 250 grain bullet hitting soft and hard tissue and pushing the animal off balance.

A sharpened stick cuts, and if it is put into the right place it will penetrate. A rifle doesn't need a perfect quartering away shot angle to kill something.

I don't want to ever lose another animal, I am sure that is not going to happen. I plan on hunting until I am no longer physically able to do so. In a lifetime of hunting the odds are even with a very accurate rifle, the best scope I can afford and the best bullets for the game the odds are against me. But with a bow the factor of losing animals goes up more than I want to deal with.

A rifle is a more lethal weapon than a bow! A bow has too many things that have to be perfect for it to work.

The Camp Ripley study showed a 13% loss rate among deer shot by bowhunters, this is a pro bowhunting study but I'll show it's numbers even though earlier studies by the University of Oregon, and Montana state showed bowhunting losses as high as 40%; http://www.thearcher.com/depot...e/BowhuntingBook.pdf This study shows numbers around 11% and that to me is outrageous. That means I will lose over 10% of the animals I shoot with a bow and hit.

Here are a few more reasons I hunt with a rifle.

1. Faster follow up shot for a bad or unknown shot. Most times a second shot with a bow is not available.
2. Match cartridge to distance and animal. With a bow you don't have the same variety.
3. Use of optical sights.
4. Increased range, increased accuracy, and increased performance of projectiles.
5. Shot angles and animal position is less critical.

As has already been said, there's no doubt that Elephants fall into a catagory of their own. Partly because they're considerably more intelligent than other species, partly because they have considerably more developed social structures, esp with regard to the cows and calves and from a purely hunting perspective, because of their considerable size and strength.

However, I can't help but feel there's a degree of hipocracy creeping into some of these posts.

Scientific research has proven many times that bowhunting is entirely different to rifle hunting with regard to the way the animal dies. It's also proven that when done correctly, it causes considerably less stress and distress than rifle hunting. As I mentioned previously, Tony Tomkinson proved that for KZN Wildlife umpteen years ago and that report was the basis for the dept permitting bowhunting on big animals.

Simply bcause it's not someone's cup of tea to bowhunt an Elephant, doesn't make it unethical. Frankly, bowhunting an Elephant isn't my cup of tea either, but I certainly regard bowhunting of bull elephants as considerably more ethical than the sport hunting of cows and calves with any weapon........ which incidentally, has also been proved time and time again to cause no end of problems within the herd & clan etc etc dynamics...... but because some choose to do that with a rifle, for some obscure reason, they consider that more acceptable and ethical than the bowhunting of Elephants.

I hope my comments haven't put the cat amongst the pigeons, but I guess it probably has.

It like drinking a Soy, Decaf coffie.
Whats the point??

If it's decaff, there is no point! - It'd be like having a bath with your socks on.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
If it's decaff, there is no point! - It'd be like having a bath with your socks on.

Or wiping before you poop.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Or wiping before you poop.

Oz - Since I am allergic to caffine and am lactose intolerant my only choice is Decaf coffee with a little soy. Not my choice, just the way it is. What's your point?

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
It like drinking a Soy, Decaf coffie.
Whats the point??

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Oz - Since I am allergic to caffine and am lactose intolerant my only choice is Decaf coffee with a little soy. Not my choice, just the way it is. What's your point?

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
It like drinking a Soy, Decaf coffie.
Whats the point??

Thread hijack!!

No caffiene, then why drink coffee? I feel bad for you, Larry, speaking as a caffiene addict. Most pilots are. It goes with the territory...

quote:

Originally posted by DAL:
Gerhard,
You speak from ignorance. Most bowkills are quicker and more peaceful than rifle shots. After being arrowed the animal walks, trots or runs a short distance and lies down a dies. No great noise, no great concussion with the susequent release of adrenaline and histamines to drive the terrified animal onto the next ranch! Take some time and hunt with a good bowhunter using modern tackle and learn a few things.

My friend...

Take some time and do a search on my bow hunt reports here on AR...

I have enough experience bow hunting African Plains game with modern archery equipment but I am always ready to learn something new....

All the best,

Gerhard,

You might like to keep an eye on our site at www.shakariconnection.com. Tony Tomkinson who performed the tests and wrote the report I mentioned, is writing an article for us about those experiences and I'm sure they'll be of interest to you.

Thanks Steve.

Will enjoy reading it.

My company had a gentleman working for us who was retired from the film making business. He filmed most of Fred Bear's hunts as well as an old archery film "Hunting Moments of Truth". He said that trying to get an elephant with a bow was one of the most sad events he ever witnessed because of what the elephant went through. A couple elephant were lost before one was killed and a tracker nearly was trampled during the process. He said he would never film an elephant hunt with a bow after that one. This was back in the day of straight limb wooden bows and wooden arrows so I"ll agree that equipment is improved but why try to prove a point at the expense of such a majestic creature.
I've heard some interesting stories about some of the more prominent modern day archers and cape buffalo but I don't want to piss off everyone so those stories will remain under my hat.

If it's legal in the area being hunted then it's certainly up to the hunter what weapon he/she chooses.

On the other hand, it's also legal for folks to piss on his/her leg for doing it.

jetdvr - I know what you mean, but I really do like coffee so just have to make believe it's the real thing. Have a "real" one for me.

For threads sake, do elephants drink coffee or just Amarula?

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Oz - Since I am allergic to caffine and am lactose intolerant my only choice is Decaf coffee with a little soy. Not my choice, just the way it is. What's your point?

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
It like drinking a Soy, Decaf coffie.
Whats the point??

Thread hijack!!

No caffiene, then why drink coffee? I feel bad for you, Larry, speaking as a caffiene addict. Most pilots are. It goes with the territory...

Wow, I have been watching this thread since it appeared a few days ago, I almost put my $.02 in at the very first, but to be honest I a glad I did not do so. While my opinion has not changed on the matter, it has been somewhat toned down a bit while trying to look at both sides of the issue.

There are many good points made by both sides of the issue, and should be taken to heart by both sides.

As for myself let me state unequivocally for the record I am 100% ignorant when it comes to "Bows and Sticks". And furthermore I choose to be this way and this is why!

Many years ago in my youth a few of my buddies got into bow hunting and shooting. One nice sunny day they dragged a couple of these things out and started shooting them. On the sidelines I watched with a bit of interest when asked if I would like to try? Sure, why not! Stepping up to the plate I realized that I had not been watching close enough and did not even know how to hold the thing!!!! After some discussion I finally figured this out, had a stick notched up (is notched the proper term?), drew this thing back, which took every bit of strength I had, aimed and let fly!!!! Oh my GOD-the string raked down my forearm and the pain was instant! Throwing the bow and everything else in the dirt I invented several new curse words over the next 15 minutes or so! Damn that hurt, and still remember it to this day. This was my one and only ever experience with bows and sticks. Damn things are too dangerous for mere mortals to handle!

While my experience was a bit ugly, and without doubt left me some very strong opinions on the matter, I do not condemn nor do I support bow hunting any dangerous game animal, including elephant. While I do not think it is proper, I will not condemn you for doing so. If you hunt ethically, I am sure all here do, and with proper backup from the PH then go for it if it is your desire.

I am a gunfighter! I do not believe in going to a fight or hunting with any rifle, handgun, bow, stick, spear or any manner of such unless that implement can stop the fight once it gets to the dance! Me personally I am not taking a knife to a gunfight! But this is just me and if you want to do so then it is fine with me. It's your fight, it's your hunt, and your dream to do this, so hammer down! Because I would not wish to do so, does not mean I need to condemn you for doing so, as long as you realize all the consequences of your actions up front, and you do everything within your power to do it proper.

I took two elephants with Dudley Rodgers in 2007 just after he took the lady on the bow hunt for elephant. This is the episode that appeared on Dangerous Game shortly thereafter I think. I of course watched the show because of Dudley. After the shot, the hunting party returned to camp for the night. They found the elephant the next day, and I actually forget how far from the shot the elephant was-if it was mentioned at all. At the time, and now, I am not sure if Dudley did the right thing or not by backing off? For sure had they pursued I am fairly certain that Dudley would have probably had to shoot the elephant, either ethically or otherwise. By backing off, well the lady killed the elephant for sure. I don't know about this myself, for the sake of the lady getting her elephant on her own, yes it was right---BUt for the sake of the elephant???

I see the term "Stunt Hunting" mentioned frequently in many threads concerning these matters, most of the time in a derogatory manner. I am going to use the term, but please bow and string guys, I mean no harm by it--as I have done some of the very same myself in years past. Remember my opinion is just that and nothing more. If the hunting tool or fighting tool of choice-regardless of what it is--cannot stop the fight, or bring the fight to a definitive end quickly, safely, and with prejudice then it is not a proper tool for the job. Does not mean it won't do the job, as it will, we have all seen that. I have myself hunted with tools that at the time I had questions about myself, and later afterwards learned that what I had done was not the best tool for the job at hand.

I mean no offense to either side-and support the right of all to hunt with the tool of choice, and will fight for that right to do so--it's your hunt! For me, as ignorant as I am concerning the matter, and my one great experience with a bow string, the bush is far safer if I don't own such an item, and I am safer too! Like I said, those bows and sticks will hurt you, very dangerous to the user I think. To all you bow and stick guys I have great respect for you and wish you good luck on all your ventures!

I am getting ready to get my head down--I can hear arrows whistling above my head now!

Michael

This just got me thinking. It is muc easier to get close to an elephant than it is to say a buffalo.

So this means it is muc easier to kill an elephant with a bow than to kill a buffalo.

Just reasonable and logical deduction. And before anyone jumps on me about this, Walter aggrees too!

Althoug he said he would definitely NOT try to kill an elepant with a bow and arrow - or a rifle for that matter.

Saeed - probably a good idea not to let Walter anywhere near a bow and arrow based on some of your previous posts about him. Walter/bow/elephant - not a good idea.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
This just got me thinking. It is muc easier to get close to an elephant than it is to say a buffalo.

So this means it is muc easier to kill an elephant with a bow than to kill a buffalo.

Just reasonable and logical deduction. And before anyone jumps on me about this, Walter aggrees too!

Althoug he said he would definitely NOT try to kill an elepant with a bow and arrow - or a rifle for that matter.

Well, I guess my day won't be complete until I jump into this with both feet. I'm a bowhunter, as well as rifle hunter. I've also successfully hunted elephants twice, with Roy Vincent back in the 1980s. And like so many here, I have opinions, hopefully mine are developed from experience and thoughtful consideration of all aspects of this debate.

I'll state right away, I think that bowhunting elephants if done by an experienced and capable archer, using proper equipment,is probably OK. I'll also state that too many rifle elephant hunts are probably stunts, because they are carried out by 'collectors' who 'need' that elephant for their next recognition level or award. Before you all get your panties in a wad, think for a bit about what I'm actually saying.

I think if someone is going to hunt dangerous game, it should be because they have an interest in and want to hunt that animal, and are willing to do it the 'right way.' The right way, in my opinion, is on foot; whether that be via tracking or baiting, but you do it on the ground with the animal you're pursuing. Too often, the interest in hunting dangerous game isn't due to an interest in the animal and what the hunt for him would entail, but rather it is to gain recognition for the hunter. In my opinion, that is exactly the wrong reason to hunt anything. I'm sure more than a few of your oxes feel a little bit gored with that last comment. So be it.

I'm acquainted with a bowhunter who is vastly experienced and who has hunted North American dangerous game (Polar, Brown and Grizzly). This hunter does not rifle hunt at all, though he bears no grudge against those who do choose to rifle or blackpowder hunt. The bow is his personal weapon of choice, in large part because of the type of hunt that is required for him to successfully take an animal. Last year, he had the good fortune to take an entire grand slam of sheep with his bow in about 18 months. Now, some people might call that a stunt, but when you consider that he did more than a dozen significant bowhunts in that span for many other animals (he recently sold his business, is single and has the ability to do as he chooses, and bowhunting is what he chooses to do) and the fact that one of his sheep hunts was on a publicly drawn tag where he hunted solo, that he's truly fascinated with many different types of game and hunts them again and again, perhaps you begin to see that some hunters do it for reasons other than standing on an awards stage in Reno every January.

This particular bowhunter is now considering a bowhunt for elephants. He is very experienced with heavy archery tackle, is a vastly experienced hunter, and just happens to hunt ONLY with a bow. Does that make his desire to hunt elephants any more of a stunt than it makes any first time rifle elephant hunter? I would submit to you that this fellow is probably much more of a hunter himself than many who go on guided rifle hunts, but who don't have the skills, or balls, to hunt on their own. He is investing countless hours right now into research about archery elephant hunting, reviewing equipment, talking to those who've done this and considering all angles before deciding whether to attempt this hunt, or not. I doubt 99% of other hunters put in as much preparation for any hunt as this fellow, regardless of your weapon of choice. So....which type of hunter should be going on an elephant hunt? Which one should not? Who is engaging in a stunt?

I regard a hunter who has a genuine interest in certain animals and who hunts them more than once, if able to do so, much differently than I regard a collector who happens to hunt. Too many people in this day and age have developed an interest in trophy hunting to get that next bit of recognition for themselves, and once they've taken a species, they check it off the list and move on to something else. Those gentlemen may be collectors, but many of them are most definitely NOT hunters. Which type of 'hunter' do you think more often fit into this category? I know who I'd rather share a campfire with.

I have not hunted elephants in quite a few years, only because of the financial costs associated with that hunt. I WILL hunt them again, hopefully a few more times, as well as buffalo as often as I can. Once my children are done with college and living on their own, I hope to get back over there every few years. While plains game are fun to hunt, there are really two animals that draw my interest, and those are the two I just mentioned. I could care less for records or who sees my animals, the experiences and memories are why I do it, and one day I just might decide that I'm going to hunt for an elephant with a bow...IF I am capable of living up to the standards necessary to do it successfully, and ethically. I'm not sure I'll ever meet the standard I'd set for myself to bowhunt an elephant, and for that occasion my .416 will do just fine.

I wonder how many people would hunt dangerous game at all if there was no awards program to recognize them for their 'accomplishments' or if there were no way to video their hunts so that they could post them as a testament to their hunting ability? Regardless of the weapon you use, WOULD YOU?

quote:

I regard a hunter who has a genuine interest in certain animals and who hunts them more than once, if able to do so, much differently than I regard a collector who happens to hunt. Too many people in this day and age have developed an interest in trophy hunting to get that next bit of recognition for themselves, and once they've taken a species, they check it off the list and move on to something else. Those gentlemen may be collectors, but many of them are most definitely NOT hunters. Which type of 'hunter' do you think more often fit into this category? I know who I'd rather share a campfire with.

I love it!

Sounds just like those SCI "Inner Circle" "hunters"!