Solids and softs to same POA?

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21 March 2005, 18:17

Peter

Solids and softs to same POA?

How close is close when coming up with loads for softs and solids? I am just starting this effort and don't want to spend vast amounts of time and money trying to reach the unattainable, unless, of course, I just luck in to something. So, is within an inch or two acceptable? If the soft is the precision shot, and the solids are just to shoot em in the ass when they are running away, exact same POA may not be that important. So, just how good are your loads and how did you come by them?
Peter.

Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;

21 March 2005, 19:02

Wink

If you are talking about a big bore, say 416 or larger, and using 100 yards as your yardstick, one inch groups would be exceptional for any single load. There really aren't that many big bore rifles that shoot minute of angle consistently (except for those owned by AR members of course) and the variables of cold barrel/hot barrel and barrel fouling in these calibers make it hard to make too many generalizations about accuracy under hunting conditions. If you get two inches between your softs and your solids after alot of effort then you should probably stop. More important I think is to regulate the loads at 50 yards shooting over your iron sights for point of aim = point of impact and accept a couple of inches between the two loads.

21 March 2005, 19:06

Saeed

I have hunted with a rifle that will shoot softs and solids groups into about 4 inches.

In the field, it did not make any difference to me.

Mind you, I only used the solids on an elephant, at about 20 yards.

My preference is to use a bullet like teh Barnes X and forget about the solids altogether.

I have been doing that for many years, and have never regretted it.

21 March 2005, 19:31

Sodakhntr

I have recently attempted this for the first time.

The 375 cal, 350 gr. Woodleigh PSP's and solids shoot at same POI for me.

I have been able to consistently fire 4 shots (2 each) into less than an inch.

21 March 2005, 19:37

Saeed

The above are 6 shots, 3 Trophy Bonded Bear Claws, and 3 Barnes Super Solids, all 400 grains, shot out of a 416 Rigby Improved we have built.

The load was 105 grains of H4350.

This was the first and ONLY load fired in this rifle.

I think the group measured about 0.77"

21 March 2005, 19:52

Atkinson

It's not much trouble and you only have to do it once...

To simplify your request use Woodleigh softs, and Woodleigh solids, use 1 or 2 grs. less for the solid and they normally print to the exact same POI........The bullets are the same configuration...

Some gun just won't do it...

Another alternative for you might be to just shoot Northfork cup points, they penitrate like a solid and expand enough for anything you shoot.

21 March 2005, 19:52

Die Ou Jagter

Saeed, who is going to shoot a group like that on the run or run and stop and fire? Only a few of the expert marksman that post here,eh.

21 March 2005, 20:05

carmelolisciotto

quote:
Originally posted by carmelolisciotto:
Ray,
You've been a pretty strong advocate for the Northfork bullets, in comparison to X-bullets how do the CUP NF's rate?
The reason I ask is that I would prefer to do as Saeed does and use a single bullet type rather than the soft/solid combination. I wish Barnes made an X-Bullet in .423 they may down the road (hopefully).

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
I have hunted with a rifle that will shoot softs and solids groups into about 4 inches.

In the field, it did not make any difference to me.

Mind you, I only used the solids on an elephant, at about 20 yards.

My preference is to use a bullet like teh Barnes X and forget about the solids altogether.

I have been doing that for many years, and have never regretted it.

21 March 2005, 20:12

Russell E. Taylor

You're actually talking about point of impact (POI), not point of aim (POA), but the advice you've received is good. We all knew what you meant. I'm sure whatever rifle you take will be fine as long as you're close enough to make things count, and "close enough" will be determined by the game you're pursuing.

Russ

21 March 2005, 20:35

Peter

Thank you gentlemen.
Russell, you are absolutely correct, I did mean POI.
Ray, your point is well taken except that my rifles don't especially like the Woodleigh solids (416 Rigby and 500/416). They both much prefer the GS Custom 380 grain solids and are satisfyingly accurate with them. In addition, my subjective view is the the Woodleigh solids give much greater perceived recoil than the GS's, far more than I would expect with just 30 grains difference in weight. So, I am left with shooting dissimilar bullets!
The same discussion also applies to my 375 H&H.ie. very accurate with the GS 270 solids, and very accurate with Nosler 300 grain partitions. Just haven't put them together yet!
Peter.

Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;

21 March 2005, 20:36

JohnTheGreek

I have a Winchester .416 Rem that is a half inch gun when using either barnes solids or x-bullets. Both groups are the SAME POI. I am not bragging here...just stating that there are possibilities much better than "close enough".

Best,

JohnTheGreek

21 March 2005, 20:54

Russell E. Taylor

Mine too, John. I haven't tried the new TSX bullets, but the 400-grain, .416-caliber "X" bullets are staggeringly accurate. One-hole, three-shot groups, if I do my part. No one believes me until I hand them the targets.

Russ

21 March 2005, 20:58

MARK H. YOUNG

Peter

The process of getting solids and softs to shoot together can drive you insane. Then again sometimes you hit it right off. Like others have said if they shoot within 2" of eachother you are probably in good shape for big game. If you plan on shooting small antelope with your solids you may want a little more precision so as not to have to allow for a different POI when shooting the little guys.

Regards,

MARK

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21 March 2005, 21:07

Atkinson

Carmelo,
I have shot a number of buffalo with the North Fork cup points and the flat nose solids in the 404 and the 470... I liked them enough to just use the cup points for all my dangerous game hunting with the exception of elephant, in which case I have a supply of Bridger flat nose solids that are tough tough bullets...

I don't know if the Northfork solids are tough enough to work on elephant, and that is a concern of Mike Bradys also...Just have to test them and find out one of these days..Maybe I can get the judge and/or Jim Sherman to try them this year...

21 March 2005, 21:08

Wink

Saeed,
It's a shame you're only getting 0,77" groups from different kinds of bullets but perhaps that will improve once you get the barrel broken in.

21 March 2005, 22:16

Kurick1

I found on a 416 Rigby that using different powders for each load ended up working well. I had Swift A-Frames and Barnes solids (400 gr) shooting right at 1.5" consistantly from a CZ rifle my friends owns. He took Buff, hippo, and croc I believe with the load. I lucked into the load using Reloader 25 and reloader 19(I think). The bullets were within 45 fps of each other over the chrono. This was my friends first time using reloads, the PH was nervous until they started shooting animals. I haven't seen the video from the buff yet, but I guess he dropped to the shot and they used a solid to finish him.

21 March 2005, 22:43

carmelolisciotto

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
Carmelo,
I have shot a number of buffalo with the North Fork cup points and the flat nose solids in the 404 and the 470... I liked them enough to just use the cup points for all my dangerous game hunting with the exception of elephant, in which case I have a supply of Bridger flat nose solids that are tough tough bullets...

I don't know if the Northfork solids are tough enough to work on elephant, and that is a concern of Mike Bradys also...Just have to test them and find out one of these days..Maybe I can get the judge and/or Jim Sherman to try them this year...

Sounds like a plan Ray!

21 March 2005, 22:49

Wink

Kurick1, Your loads resemble closely the factory Norma loads. In fact, if you look at a Norma reloading book you will see the similarities as well. The Reloader powders are most likely the same powders under a different name. Anybody ever tried the Norma factory stuff to see how well the two factory loads group?

22 March 2005, 00:13

Spring

Since I started reloading last year I've spent time trying to get my softs and solids to shoot similarly. Prior to taking up this crazy hobby, however, I shot Federal Premium Trophy Bonded softs and Federal Trophy Bonded solids. For me those two factory loads printed right on top of each other with great consistency. Since loading on my own I've had to lower the amount of powder in my solids by a couple of grains to get the same results that I so easily got when buying factory bullets.

22 March 2005, 00:38

JohnTheGreek

quote:
Originally posted by Russell E. Taylor:
Mine too, John.

I too was impressed as all hell when things turned out that way! I didn't even really work up a load but just loaded them to the max listed in the Barnes reloading manual with whatever powder I happened to have laying around (getting right at 2400 fps). Took it out I'll be damned if both bullets didn't shoot perfectly! I give a bit of credit to the gunsmith that did the bedding work but that Winchester shoots like it was made around those maximum Barnes loads.

Best,

JohnTheGreek

22 March 2005, 00:52

Oldsarge

Before getting too hysterical about the POI, keep in mind the size of the target. The kill zone on buff is nearly 3 feet across! If you put a good quality soft into that and it doesn't die quite as quickly as you would wish, then the most accurate load should perhaps be the solid! After all, coming at you, the brain isn't quite as large . . .