Is a green hunt a hunt ?

19 June 2017, 00:47

Charlie64

.

Is a green hunt a hunt?

Here I am talking about a darted hunt ( think rhino ), pictures taken, horns measured and an antidote administered and the rhino, not really worse for wear, goes on his merry way. A plaster / foam cast or mount can be made up later just like artificial ele tusks. Something for the wall

Bit like catch and release in the piscatorial world.

Would be interested in views , opinions, comments and replies from anyone / everyone here on AR.

Cheers

Charlie

Ps I have not done one. And have only read reports and seen other peoples footage.

.

19 June 2017, 01:06

Steve Ahrenberg

Hi Charlie,

I did one in 2006 to complete the Big 5. I will admit, I went into it thinking it would be lame as hell. It was obviously on a game farm in South Africa.

There were a few PH's standing around when we got there. I was struck that absolutely none of them wanted to do the hunt. NO ONE wants to be the one to have to shoot one dead, if the need arises.

To the hunt, it was very exciting, you have to be close, 20-25 yards, NO obstructions between you and the Rhino. Once hit, you literally have to run to find the thing. If they fall incorrectly, they can die.

We got close several times before the shot.

Interesting side note. The PH I had in Botswana for Elephant wanted to go and observe. I hunted Elephant in 2006, that same year in NG41. The place I darted the Rhino was owned by Christo Kaiser, who was killed by an Elephant in the same unit (NG41) just a few months prior.

His widow, Tanya (I think) was very accommodating and I think she is still today running that company. Small world.

Anyway, I would do it again in a heartbeat...do it!!

19 June 2017, 01:10

Big Wonderful Wyoming

I am ok with it, the darted jaguar in South America sounds a hell of a lot more fun!

19 June 2017, 01:15

Steve Ahrenberg

quote:
Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
I am ok with it, the darted jaguar in South America sounds a hell of a lot more fun!

I fished with a kid in Bolivia that wants me to go do that! We were in a town (Trinidad) to get supplies. EVERY shop we went into had Jaguar Skulls and Skins on the walls.

I'm not even sure its legal?

The ranchers down there kill lots of them.

19 June 2017, 01:16

MJines

If an unsuccessful hunt can be a "hunt" not sure why a green hunt cannot be a "hunt".

I am in the middle of rereading all the Ron Thomson books . . . read his book Black Rhino and there is no way you could conclude that what he was doing was not hunting.

19 June 2017, 01:26

Aaron Neilson

I've darted a rhino personally, been on 1 other "green" hunt, and also been on a shooting / killing hunt for rhino.

Personally I found the "green" hunts to be a whole lot more fun, and even a bit more challenging. I darted my rhino at 14 yards - you certainly don't need to get that close to shoot one with a gun.

19 June 2017, 01:28

Grenadier

It seems to me to have all the elements of any other hunt. Certainly all the danger is involved. You even get to walk up to the downed beast for a close look and a pat.

I'm not sure how humane repeatedly putting a rhino to sleep is, or how many times it happens to a particular specimen. Does Fido earn a retirement after a certain number of injections? Can a rhino become an addict and will he experience hallucinatory flashbacks? If darted too many times will it make the game wary and coy or will it rile him up and make him want to charge the evil dart throwers?

Still, it sounds fun as long as the price is commensurate with the amount of meat you get to take home.

19 June 2017, 01:34

Aaron Neilson

quote:
Originally posted by Grenadier:
It seems to me to have all the elements of any other hunt. Certainly all the danger is involved. You even get to walk up to the downed beast for a close look and a pat.

I'm not sure how humane repeatedly putting a rhino to sleep is, or how many times it happens to a particular specimen. Does Fido earn a retirement after a certain number of injections? Can a rhino become an addict and will he experience hallucinatory flashbacks? If darted too many times will it make the game wary and coy or will it rile him up and make him want to charge the evil dart throwers?

Still, it sounds fun as long as the price is commensurate with the amount of meat you get to take home.

Each rhino can only be darted a couple - to a few times per year, for safety reasons of the animal. They're not darting "fido" once a week.

Not to say a white rhino can't be dangerous, but I think the likelihood of a "real" charge is pretty slim.

19 June 2017, 01:40

Steve Ahrenberg

quote:
Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
quote:
Originally posted by Grenadier:
It seems to me to have all the elements of any other hunt. Certainly all the danger is involved. You even get to walk up to the downed beast for a close look and a pat.

I'm not sure how humane repeatedly putting a rhino to sleep is, or how many times it happens to a particular specimen. Does Fido earn a retirement after a certain number of injections? Can a rhino become an addict and will he experience hallucinatory flashbacks? If darted too many times will it make the game wary and coy or will it rile him up and make him want to charge the evil dart throwers?

Still, it sounds fun as long as the price is commensurate with the amount of meat you get to take home.

Each rhino can only be darted a couple - to a few times per year, for safety reasons of the animal. They're not darting "fido" once a week.

Not to say a white rhino can't be dangerous, but I think the likelihood of a "real" charge is pretty slim.

After I got home, I looked on the companies website I darted mine at. It was pictured darted a bunch of times and killed not long after my green hunt by a guy that wanted to kill one.

I think the name of the company was/is Unico Hunting?

19 June 2017, 01:48

MacD37

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the dart hunts on Rhino. The fact is, you are walking very close to a dangerous animal with a "DART GUN" and if that fact alone doesn't make this a hunt for you, I doubt anything would!

The fact is the money spent on these hunts insures the extended life of a very rare animal, to breed on to father some more of these animals that were almost shot and poached out just a few years ago.

I have no problem at all with the dart hunts, and if I could afford it I would try it myself!

................................................................

19 June 2017, 03:06

Michael Robinson

It's just not for me.

I need to be in the wilderness with a deadly weapon in my hands and with lethal intent or I am not hunting.

19 June 2017, 03:12

ManuelM

I would consider darting a rhino a real hunt, darting a Jaguar would DEFINITELY be a real hunt, shame jaguars can't be hunted, they kill them DAILY without any profit or value in all of their range.

19 June 2017, 04:22

Joe Savikataaq Jr

Anyone ever offer Green hunts on elephants?

19 June 2017, 04:33

JCS271

quote:
.[After I got home, I looked on the companies website I darted mine at. It was pictured darted a bunch of times and killed not long after my green hunt by a guy that wanted to kill one.

I think the name of the company was/is Unico Hunting?

Well so much for that being a Green hunt. All that company was doing was milking that poor rhino for all it was worth until somebody finally paid the full price and put him down. While I am sure it is fun and potentially exciting it is not big game hunting. The thought of somebody darting one so that they can then brag about taking the Big 5 is a joke in my opinion. The reality is that most of us can not afford to take very many species around the world and we accept it for what it is. If we're going to qualify this as hunting why not then just do it in a way that poses less danger of accidental death for the animal and just shoot him with a paintball gun or a wrist rocket? Then if he wants to chase after you, you'll have a really cool story to tell! Just my 2 cents.
P.S. let me know how this works out, because if it will qualify for the record books and I'll get a cool certificate for my wall then I can save a quick 20k by shooting a grizzly with my kids paintball gun!

19 June 2017, 04:51

Steve Ahrenberg

quote:
Originally posted by JCS271:
quote:
.[After I got home, I looked on the companies website I darted mine at. It was pictured darted a bunch of times and killed not long after my green hunt by a guy that wanted to kill one.

I think the name of the company was/is Unico Hunting?

Well so much for that being a Green hunt. All that company was doing was milking that poor rhino for all it was worth until somebody finally paid the full price and put him down. While I am sure it is fun and potentially exciting it is not big game hunting. The thought of somebody darting one so that they can then brag about taking the Big 5 is a joke in my opinion. The reality is that most of us can not afford to take very many species around the world and we accept it for what it is. If we're going to qualify this as hunting why not then just do it in a way that poses less danger of accidental death for the animal and just shoot him with a paintball gun or a wrist rocket? Then if he wants to chase after you, you'll have a really cool story to tell! Just my 2 cents.
P.S. let me know how this works out, because if it will qualify for the record books and I'll get a cool certificate for my wall then I can save a quick 20k by shooting a grizzly with my kids paintball gun!

The popcorn is for you, you are obviously an observer in life, not a participant.

This is the kind of un-called for comment that Randall (Crazyhorseconsulting) always refers to. It add nothing and only is divisive.

I won't defend darting/killing/ anything I've ever done. If you choose to go hunt a Griz with a switch, good for you as I have exactly zero skin in your game.

19 June 2017, 05:08

crbutler

I was kind of in the same position on making a choice of dart vs. kill.

I chose to kill mine.

In the past, you darted it and were anesthetizing the rhino. I think now, SA has decided that you can't do that, all you are shooting is a vitamin shot.

In my opinion, darting a black rhino is probably more dangerous than killing a white rhino. Frankly, to me, the danger is not an element I am concerned about as I don't think it's as much risk as say the drive to get there in SA is.

I have no issues with someone choosing to dart one. I have no issues with a darted trophy going in the books.

For my personal choice, I thought killing and utilizing a post breeding bull was my preferred target. I thought from a conservation standpoint it was more "honest" of me. Who knows, someday I may choose to dart a black rhino just to have done it, but after the whole experience, I personally would not have felt the same if I had darted the bull I shot.

To me, it's a personal deal. But, if the only reason you choose to dart as opposed to kill is money, you are making the decision on a faulty premise.

19 June 2017, 05:09

Heym 450/400

This place is a riot...people spend a lot of time worrying about how everyone else is hunting..and yes, I've been guilty of it as well.

19 June 2017, 05:13

Grenadier

quote:
Originally posted by JCS271:

Well so much for that being a Green hunt. All that company was doing was milking that poor rhino for all it was worth until somebody finally paid the full price and put him down.

If a rhino is darted ten times and then shot dead by the eleventh hunter did that not save ten rhinos?

19 June 2017, 05:18

Steve Ahrenberg

quote:
Originally posted by Grenadier:
quote:
Originally posted by JCS271:

Well so much for that being a Green hunt. All that company was doing was milking that poor rhino for all it was worth until somebody finally paid the full price and put him down.
If a rhino is darted ten times and then shot dead by the eleventh hunter did that not save ten rhinos?

Probably, but by his reasoning, his problem with it is that means 10 guys got to "brag" about taking the Big 5.

19 June 2017, 05:21

Heym 450/400

How could they "brag" about taking the Big Five without shooting a Black Rhino?

19 June 2017, 05:42

MJines

I have never done a green hunt so my opinion should be taken with that in mind. I will offer, as alluded to above, that Ron Thomson, someone who has hunted literally thousands of elephants, hundreds of leopards and lions, countless buffalo, says that his experience darting black rhino in Zim was the most exciting, extraordinary and dangerous big game hunting he ever undertook. I am not going to argue that white rhino are even in the same league from a dangerous game perspective as black rhino, nor that hunting in the more broken country of South Africa is akin to the jesse of Zim, but I think it would be a mistake to be dismissive of all "non-lethal" hunts.

19 June 2017, 07:05

Saeed

It might be fun, but it certainly cannot be classified as a HUNT!

Call it anything you like, but a HUNT it certainly is not.

19 June 2017, 07:10

Steve Ahrenberg

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
It might be fun, but it certainly cannot be classified as a HUNT!

Call it anything you like, but a HUNT it certainly is not.

And exactly why is that?

I'll add, if people whom claim to hunt for the experience, not the trophy, why wouldn't a green hunt be hunting.

Further I'll agree with Mike, if an unsuccessful hunt, is a hunt, what is a successful green hunt?

19 June 2017, 07:15

Crazyhorseconsulting

Personal opinion, and that is the ONLY reason, nothing more.

19 June 2017, 07:51

walking buffalo

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
It might be fun, but it certainly cannot be classified as a HUNT!

Call it anything you like, but a HUNT it certainly is not.

And exactly why is that?

I'll add, if people whom claim to hunt for the experience, not the trophy, why wouldn't a green hunt be hunting.

Further I'll agree with Mike, if an unsuccessful hunt, is a hunt, what is a successful green hunt?

For the reason that "Hunting" is defined as the pursuit of wild animals with the purpose of Killing them.

Of course we could re-define the word Hunt to satisfy the inclusion of all those that want to self identify as Hunters but don't want to kill any animals....

Lets view the question in reverse.

If a person Only pursues animals in a non-lethal manner, is this person a Hunter?

19 June 2017, 07:53

walking buffalo

quote:
Originally posted by walking buffalo:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
It might be fun, but it certainly cannot be classified as a HUNT!

Call it anything you like, but a HUNT it certainly is not.

And exactly why is that?

I'll add, if people whom claim to hunt for the experience, not the trophy, why wouldn't a green hunt be hunting.

Further I'll agree with Mike, if an unsuccessful hunt, is a hunt, what is a successful green hunt?

For the reason that "Hunting" is defined as the pursuit of wild animals with the purpose of Killing them.

Of course we could re-define the word Hunt to satisfy the inclusion of all those that want to self identify as Hunters but don't want to kill any animals....

Lets view the question from another perspective.

If a person Only pursues animals in a non-lethal manner, is this person a Hunter?

19 June 2017, 07:56

Steve Ahrenberg

Ok, I guess I'm out of the closet now. I hate the killing of anything. I'm actually a mole for the antis.

I've collected extensive files on all you bad men. I'm going to go turn this stuff in to Pita.

No point in continuing a discussion with closed minds, whom want to attach motive to the simple act of darting a Rhino?

19 June 2017, 08:00

fulvio

quote:
If a rhino is darted ten times and then shot dead by the eleventh hunter did that not save ten rhinos?

Not really and I would side with Grenadier; they milked it 10 times then plastered it.

It is quite possible they do not have a quota to sustain the killing of 10 so why not make some extra bucks on discounted hunts on the back of one which is on quota?

Good economics if you ask me - but "milking" it would be.

19 June 2017, 08:06

Steve Ahrenberg

quote:
Originally posted by fulvio:
quote:
If a rhino is darted ten times and then shot dead by the eleventh hunter did that not save ten rhinos?

Not really and I would side with Grenadier; they milked it 10 times then plastered it.

It is quite possible they do not have a quota to sustain the killing of 10 so why not make some extra bucks on discounted hunts on the back of one which is on quota?

Good economics if you ask me - but "milking" it would be.

Hi Fulvio.

Here are (were) the economics. I paid 6500.00. They darted it at least 5 times. They sold it for 110K if I remember. Thats a pretty good payday.

THEY chose to waive the insurance, THEY chose to waive the chopper. I made them agree to assume all risk, since THEY decided to go for it without the normal safety measures.

19 June 2017, 08:16

fulvio

quote:
If a person Only pursues animals in a non-lethal manner, is this person a Hunter?

Not really, more likely qualifies as an ecologist, researcher or conservationist.

19 June 2017, 08:31

Grenadier

If successful pursuit is hunting then tagging whales makes Greenpiece a group of hunters.

19 June 2017, 08:42

walking buffalo

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Ok, I guess I'm out of the closet now. I hate the killing of anything. I'm actually a mole for the antis.

I've collected extensive files on all you bad men. I'm going to go turn this stuff in to Pita.

No point in continuing a discussion with closed minds, whom want to attach motive to the simple act of darting a Rhino?

I have to agree. It's tough to have a discussion when someone asks a question then has a tantrum when they don't like the answer.

A closed mind will not see the importance of maintaining a clear and concise definition of "hunting". Take "Trophy Hunting" as a current example. People that don't understand what Trophy Hunting really means have skewed the general public's understanding of these words to the detriment of hunting.

Without giving an opinion on the ethics, excitement or danger of darting a rhino, it is Not hunting.

19 June 2017, 08:49

Steve Ahrenberg

quote:
Originally posted by walking buffalo:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Ok, I guess I'm out of the closet now. I hate the killing of anything. I'm actually a mole for the antis.

I've collected extensive files on all you bad men. I'm going to go turn this stuff in to Pita.

No point in continuing a discussion with closed minds, whom want to attach motive to the simple act of darting a Rhino?

I have to agree. It's tough to have a discussion when someone asks a question then has a tantrum when they don't like the answer.

A closed mind will not see the importance of maintaining a clear and concise definition of "hunting". Take "Trophy Hunting" as a current example. People that don't understand what Trophy Hunting really means have skewed the general public's understanding of these words to the detriment of hunting.

Without giving an opinion on the ethics, excitement or danger of darting a rhino, it is Not hunting.

Lets just agree to disagree. May I point out the smiley face in my quote?

19 June 2017, 09:02

walking buffalo

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
quote:
Originally posted by walking buffalo:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Ok, I guess I'm out of the closet now. I hate the killing of anything. I'm actually a mole for the antis.

I've collected extensive files on all you bad men. I'm going to go turn this stuff in to Pita.

No point in continuing a discussion with closed minds, whom want to attach motive to the simple act of darting a Rhino?

I have to agree. It's tough to have a discussion when someone asks a question then has a tantrum when they don't like the answer.

A closed mind will not see the importance of maintaining a clear and concise definition of "hunting". Take "Trophy Hunting" as a current example. People that don't understand what Trophy Hunting really means have skewed the general public's understanding of these words to the detriment of hunting.

Without giving an opinion on the ethics, excitement or danger of darting a rhino, it is Not hunting.

Lets just agree to disagree. May I point out the smiley face in my quote?

No problem with disagreeing, but shutting down a conversation 'cause you don't like the other's opinion is a bit too liberal for my taste.

I answered your question, would really like to hear your answer the one I asked earlier.

"If a person Only pursues animals in a non-lethal manner, is this person a Hunter?"

19 June 2017, 09:14

Beretta682E

Hunting is a bloodsport.

Part of the utility hunters get is from the killing aspect.

Mike

19 June 2017, 10:05

DCS Member

So, someone who practices catch and release fishing is not a fisherman?

19 June 2017, 10:15

Saeed

When I go on a photo safari, I do not call it HUNTING, although I am on a safari.

When I go diving with a camera, I called a photography dive.

When I dive with a speargun, I called spearfishing dive.

I have nothing wrong with anyone doing it, but I certainly have no wish to do it.

I love going on a photo safari with a camera, and I love going hunting with a rifle.

But the idea of darting an nimal does not appeal to me at all.

19 June 2017, 10:25

Beretta682E

quote:
Originally posted by DCS Member:
So, someone who practices catch and release fishing is not a fisherman?

Hunting and fishing ain't the same.

Killing is central to hunting.

I am going in 10 days to save conservancy. I will shoot an impala or two and then do a lot of stalks (if the ph can tolerate it) and take a lot of pictures.

Am I hunting ? Most likely not. But for me staking right up to the sticks and taking a picture beats killing another buffalo. I don't want to deal with dip pack shipping or taxidermy.

I rather have my own pictures on my wall than taxidermy.

Mike

19 June 2017, 11:03

DCS Member

quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by DCS Member:
So, someone who practices catch and release fishing is not a fisherman?

Hunting and fishing ain't the same.

Killing is central to hunting.

I am going in 10 days to save conservancy. I will shoot an impala or two and then do a lot of stalks (if the ph can tolerate it) and take a lot of pictures.

Am I hunting ? Most likely not. But for me staking right up to the sticks and taking a picture beats killing another buffalo. I don't want to deal with dip pack shipping or taxidermy.

I rather have my own pictures on my wall than taxidermy.

Mike

I'm not trying to stir the pot, but just curious about opinions.

When the wild quail population here was terrible, I'd "hunt" them mainly for the dogs and "miss" just to give the breeding population a chance. I still went "hunting" in my mind.

19 June 2017, 11:33

Beretta682E

quote:
Originally posted by DCS Member:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by DCS Member:
So, someone who practices catch and release fishing is not a fisherman?

Hunting and fishing ain't the same.

Killing is central to hunting.

I am going in 10 days to save conservancy. I will shoot an impala or two and then do a lot of stalks (if the ph can tolerate it) and take a lot of pictures.

Am I hunting ? Most likely not. But for me staking right up to the sticks and taking a picture beats killing another buffalo. I don't want to deal with dip pack shipping or taxidermy.

I rather have my own pictures on my wall than taxidermy.

Mike

I'm not trying to stir the pot, but just curious about opinions.

When the wild quail population here was terrible, I'd "hunt" them mainly for the dogs and "miss" just to give the breeding population a chance. I still went "hunting" in my mind.

Similar to me deer hunting with Admiral/subsailor74.

I know a a few guys who just like being in deer camp or in a deer stand.

I personally think corralling elephants at night out of fields is often more risky than hunting then, transporting plains game can be risky, problem animal control of lions - drugging then back into conservancies can be as or more dangerous than hunting them.

Most of these are often done by same professionals who conduct hunts.

Also with dangerous game there is an additional element of risk - normally buff don't come at you for talking a picture

Mike