Lion Populations - Guardian UK

25 February 2013, 20:09

MacD37

Milo, what they say is true if you shoot the pride lion, but not true if you shoot a satellite lion, or a dry Female then no infanticide takes place.

Safari companies like Tanzania Game Trackers and many others have canvassed the lion population in their concessions and cataloged the male lions as to age and pride status. These lions have been placed on lap top computers so they can be identified in the field. No lion that is in charge of a pride is taken no matter his age or trophy quality. The key is to take lions that are at least 5 years old, and not master of a pride. This way his genes will have been mixed in with the population from satellite chance breeding, and older males who have been kicked out of prides by younger stronger males can be taken because like the older satellite males has placed his genes as well. This type of hunting of lions does no harm to maintain the renewable resource.

There are only two ways sport hunting endangers long term lion populations of lion. #1 is shooting a pride alpha male, or #2 shooting satellite lions that are too young!

The biggest threat to lions is local people poisoning them! The example like Kenya, where there has been no lion or any other hunting since the early 1980s yet lion populations are down drastically from the time when hunting was legal there. Habitat loss and poisoning are the culprits. The only harm done by a sport hunter is shooting the WRONG lion!

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25 February 2013, 21:12

Gayne C. Young

No media outlet that I've found wants to hear anything other than this crap. Screw the facts - we want bunny hugging goodness

25 February 2013, 22:04

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by MacD37:
Milo, what they say is true if you shoot the pride lion, but not true if you shoot a satellite lion, or a dry Female then no infanticide takes place.

Safari companies like Tanzania Game Trackers and many others have canvassed the lion population in their concessions and cataloged the male lions as to age and pride status. These lions have been placed on lap top computers so they can be identified in the field. No lion that is in charge of a pride is taken no matter his age or trophy quality. The key is to take lions that are at least 5 years old, and not master of a pride. This way his genes will have been mixed in with the population from satellite chance breeding, and older males who have been kicked out of prides by younger stronger males can be taken because like the older satellite males has placed his genes as well. This type of hunting of lions does no harm to maintain the renewable resource.

There are only two ways sport hunting endangers long term lion populations of lion. #1 is shooting a pride alpha male, or #2 shooting satellite lions that are too young!

The biggest threat to lions is local people poisoning them! The example like Kenya, where there has been no lion or any other hunting since the early 1980s yet lion populations are down drastically from the time when hunting was legal there. Habitat loss and poisoning are the culprits. The only harm done by a sport hunter is shooting the WRONG lion!

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Mac you are 100% correct and why it is so important for the SCI to endorse the definition of a Huntable Male lion as defined by the LCTF.

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J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.

26 February 2013, 03:57

Aaron Neilson

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by MacD37:
Milo, what they say is true if you shoot the pride lion, but not true if you shoot a satellite lion, or a dry Female then no infanticide takes place.

Safari companies like Tanzania Game Trackers and many others have canvassed the lion population in their concessions and cataloged the male lions as to age and pride status. These lions have been placed on lap top computers so they can be identified in the field. No lion that is in charge of a pride is taken no matter his age or trophy quality. The key is to take lions that are at least 5 years old, and not master of a pride. This way his genes will have been mixed in with the population from satellite chance breeding, and older males who have been kicked out of prides by younger stronger males can be taken because like the older satellite males has placed his genes as well. This type of hunting of lions does no harm to maintain the renewable resource.

There are only two ways sport hunting endangers long term lion populations of lion. #1 is shooting a pride alpha male, or #2 shooting satellite lions that are too young!

The biggest threat to lions is local people poisoning them! The example like Kenya, where there has been no lion or any other hunting since the early 1980s yet lion populations are down drastically from the time when hunting was legal there. Habitat loss and poisoning are the culprits. The only harm done by a sport hunter is shooting the WRONG lion!

.....................................................................

Mac you are 100% correct and why it is so important for the SCI to endorse the definition of a Huntable Male lion as defined by the LCTF.

With one notable exception. Nothing wrong with taking a pride male without dependent cubs!!

26 February 2013, 10:17

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

With one notable exception. Nothing wrong with taking a pride male without dependent cubs!!

Absolutely true!

27 February 2013, 07:51

Leopard Slayer

"Nothing wrong with taking a pride male without dependent cubs!!"......?

The chances are that there WILL be a pregnant female among them and if the pride male is taken and another moves in, one can be well assured that those cubs will be killed within a short time.

27 February 2013, 10:46

Bwanamich

Infanticide when a male takes over a pride is not a 100% phenomenum. Mothers, especially a coalition of females are quite apt at protecting their cubs from this happening. I think too many of us are starting to believe DJ words on the issue

27 February 2013, 12:46

Leopard Slayer

quote:
Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Infanticide when a male takes over a pride is not a 100% phenomenum. Mothers, especially a coalition of females are quite apt at protecting their cubs from this happening. I think too many of us are starting to believe DJ words on the issue

Let's go through this once more as I don't quite understand:

If you shoot the dominant male (pride holder)out of a pride with cubs it will lead to the next candidate killing the cubs and the females will be powerless to prevent this from happening?

Don't know what to believe anymore.

27 February 2013, 13:22

Russ B

The basic fact of the matter is to limit the number of Lion shot and I believe this is being done. Quotas of WILD LION have been reduced dramatically over the last two decades.

I would very much doubt that there are more than 100 wild lion shot in Africa each season which if you believe the counts is .0028% of the population.

The basic fact of the matter is Lion population is directly linked to habitat reduction.

27 February 2013, 13:56

Bwanamich

quote:
Originally posted by Leopard Slayer:
quote:
Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Infanticide when a male takes over a pride is not a 100% phenomenum. Mothers, especially a coalition of females are quite apt at protecting their cubs from this happening. I think too many of us are starting to believe DJ words on the issue

Let's go through this once more as I don't quite understand:

If you shoot the dominant male (pride holder)out of a pride with cubs it will lead to the next candidate killing the cubs and the females will be powerless to prevent this from happening? Don't know what to believe anymore.

Not in 100% of the cases. Again, there are many factors to consider, like cub ages, number of females in the pride, etc. There are documented cases where an incoming male "adopts" the cubs from an outgoing pride male. There are also documented cases where females will gang up and drive the incoming male off or prevent him form committing infanticide. All I am saying is that infanticide does not occur all of the time.

27 February 2013, 15:10

Leopard Slayer

Bwanamich,

You agree that it is not necessarily true 100% that killing of the dominant male from a pride that has weaning or cubs of an age of several months will necessarily give rise to infanticide within that pride.

It would also be true to say that the theory that has been argued and thrashed is therefore not without its flaws. It would also be reasonable to assume that the hunter taking such a male is not entirely culpable of an act that may or may not produce negative repercussions to the pride.

To play it safe, I would agree that where a pride with cubs is concerned, the dominant male be best left alone.

27 February 2013, 16:16

Bwanamich

correct. the aim is to err on the side of caution

27 February 2013, 17:29

ledvm

Hi Leopard Slayer,

Did you read the Definition of a Huntable Male Lion?

If so...let say that we should have defined 'dependent cub' as well. A dependent cub is a birth to 18 month cub. If males take over a pride with pregnant females...and the females give birth later...it is highly likely that the new cubs will be accepted as own.

On another note...there are also cases where >6 males hold prides and are sterile and these males should be targeted...albeit hard to truly identify.

For future reference...you should consider Bwanamich a good source of accurate information on lion and lion hunting. He knows of what he speaks and is all about doing right for the wild lion.

But...as he says...when looking at a male with a pride..."err on the side of the lion"...should be the mantra.

27 February 2013, 19:52

Leopard Slayer

Dr. Easter,

Yes I have read your "Definition of a Huntable Male Lion".

My earlier post should have read ... "weaning or cubs of an age of several weeks"...instead of "months".

Maybe the various documentaries related to infanticide among lions tend to create an over reaction to this phenomenon.

Am I wrong in saying females also participate (rarely) in the killing of cubs as I am quite certain having seen a filmed episode of this nature. Jealousy among females perhaps?

27 February 2013, 20:59

ledvm

LS,
In the wild...all kinds of things are possible. As conservationists...we need to focus on the probable.

Maybe Bwanamich will chime back in and give us his observations on the subject.

I would say female infanticide would be extremely rare...but does occur...sometimes from the mother herself and is something we can't influence...part of nature.