Emergency info needed on the Irikishbor/Maasailand

30 October 2005, 08:46

quote:
Sheephunter,
To be honest, I am not too happy with your post ironing out all our business to the public before a hunt..It would be my hope that we could deal among ourselves on all such issues.

That said, you have put me on the spot as this deal was negociated between you and Pierre in camp last year after a very successful hunt that I am not sure you really appreciated the quality of it...All I did was handle the financing...So I can't say much other than what I perceive...I am trying to get in touch with Pierre.

quote:
Sheephunter,
Pierre just called to report on a huge croc that they killed and I told him about your post and emails...

He informed me that a PH whom I will not name, had 3 back to back 21 day Safaris in the Kigosi, no lions in there this year and they saw no elephants..I know this PH and he is a very good hunter...thus your transfer...

Pierre feels certain that a Lion is to be had and said that was supposed to be your main goal, and that these animals you want are the most difficult to come by and this was not a zoo where you could just go pick them out.

quote:
Ditmar,
I have deleted most of my emails, your money is to be returned..your hunt is cancelled...You listened to the wrong folks with an agenda...

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
Redmond,NitroX,
I am trying very hard to stay out of this thread, I have deleted my replies to Sheephunter, as have several others who took the time to look into the situation...

I will only say that I gave Sheephunter all the explanations for the change, which he refused to accept, as they were given to me by Pierre once I contacted him..

I deleted my replies because I don't believe the internet is the place to negociate business. I don't believe that people that are not involved know enough about the situation to comment as they do not know all the facts..

Would you have me send a client to a concession that has not produced and then have him on the internet complaining he did not get a Lion or whatever...This is the first time I have ever had a complaint on Pierre and the man never gave Pierre a chance to perform..

I am sorry you feel as you do, but frankly this is between the interrested parties and should never have been put on here..

Rather than deal with a client that is negative, we gave him the option to cancel out and get a full refund one week before his hunt, I do not know of any company that would or has done that, it is unheard of as far as I know...At this point he has been cancelled and will get a refund as decided by Pierre.

I post this in all fairness to Pierre. In the years that I have delt with Pierre, he has only the clients well being at issue and many on this board will testify to that. I have absolute trust in any of his decisions..

IMO Sheephunter, because of his post on AR, was plied with information from certain competition via email, much as one would expect from a Hyena in the night, and that I consider unethical and I am sure Pierre will be more than upset with it.

This is my last post on the subject, it is a shame it happened, no one gained a thing from it. It was destrutive from the first post, and that is a shame.

quote:
Pete,
I see your post mostly as preconcieved notions..What are you baseing your comments on if I may ask...

Most of our 7 day buffalo hunters love to be camped with a 21 day hunter, the get to see so much more than you would alone, the concessions are plenty big and you have someone to sit around the fire in the evening with and share the days events, you get to go hang baits if you wish and and in many cases get to see a Lion shot or whatever...the 21 day hunters loves the fact that your helping him with baits and everyone gets to see the great dance and spreading of palms when simba is killed.

If you hunt with us, switches are going to take place if we feel its the thing to do, thats our business and its for you good..we don't switch PHs but I see noting wrong with that as long as he is qualified..

Now I may be chastised for my thinking but its out front for all to see and then make their choice from there..Lots of companies out there vieing for your love....but we are going to do what is best for the client im our opinnion, as we feel we are in a better position to make that call.

quote:
Sheephunter,
You paint yourself in a wonderful light and that is fine, but the facts are you have consulted with 3 or 4 different operators and they have all plied you with wonderful information and advised you that you would not kill a Lion with Pierre, but that you should go with them to be successful, so you got confused, greedy and things got out of hand, YOU cancelled your hunt and we are in the process of a refund to you...We did not cancell you. You have been negociating with others for some time now.....We made you one hell of a deal, because you are a repeat client, did they match it? Apparantly not. All this came out of going on the internet, and the victim is you.

Now you are back on email and AR "giving me not an opertunity but an ultimatum to sit down like gentlemen and discuss the possiblity to once again takeing you hunting" but only on your terms and to the Kigosi, and again with that scolding tone that is your nature.

Your emails are such that I am not even sure what it is you want from us ...If you want to go hunt with Pierre on his original terms, then I will contact him on Sunday and try and reinstate you..

I have no axe to grind with you, I am only ticked that you went on the interntet with business and overstated your side of it, that should have remained between us..You churned the greedy people into a feeding frenzy to eat you alive!

Personally I think you should take the competition up on their offers and go to the Kigosi as that is what you want ...You are getting your money back and you can now go to the Kigosi..what could be better..Those guys ard licking there chops to get you, even the one that is in the other Masai concession wants you and his concession is the best he says. The world is your Oyster...

What has happened is that you have dug yourself a hole and can't get out of it. I am truly sorry it happened...It would have been so simple to just trust Pierre and live with the results. Don't you understand that is what every hunter does when he books a hunt...

You have to understand that since you aired this to the world, that Pierre is hesitant to hunt you ever again as you would be on the internet claiming foul if you did not shoot a black maned Lion, can't blame him for that!!...

Lion success is very low, Lions are the most sought after animal in Africa and the most expensive, and black maned Lions are as scarce as black diamonds...I know people that have spent multi bucks and have never seen a shootable Lion..

We never guarentee Lions, we don't guarentee Impala, we do guarentee that we will do our best and if that includes changing concessions then that is what we will do with you or anyone else and yes it may be at the last minute without your consent...Pierre is a better judge of that than any client, thats a plain simple and obvious fact

...Should this appeal to you then you must understand as of now that should you not get a Lion that I am forewarning you of the success rate of about 35 ot 50 percent Tanzania wide, if that. Unreasonable expectation have ruined more hunts than anything I know of...

Now I have laid it on the line as clear as possibel for your decision and what I see as options, a no more nonsence statment of fact..If you request me to do so, then I will talk to Pierre on Sunday unless someone else decides to book that time frame in the interim as its certainly up for grabs for whoever commits first..We don't want to give up that time frame and lose the money.

I have been told that you think we are bluffing???? I don't understand that thinking and I don't even know if thats true or not, but if so, it's something you should not be thinking because we don't bluff..We would rather sit in camp and play checkers than take you someplace we don't think would be successful, and that may be exactly what we will do....

Our decision was based on: the facts are the Kigosi has had 3 back to back Safaris on it, some say they killed 3 Lions, some say they killed none...FACT: EITHER WAY ITS A NO GO...The chance of 4 Lions of one concession is a joke, the chance of 2 would be close to the second coming and I also doubt that the Tanzania govt. would allow 4 lions off any concessiuon....I give you facts, not internet jabber.

You need to sit back, take a deep breath and make a decision once and for all as time is running out for us.

Either way I wish you the best of luck, I really do....

Bait & Switch? Don't Know

Timely Communications? Nope.

High Pressure/limited time only? Could be interpreted that way.

The smoke has cleared and what is in the salt is in the salt. Also, the words written before are here for us to read after.

30 October 2005, 08:46

Hoot Murray

Gentlemen,

I read all the posts on this thread. I can see there are issues on both sides. From sheephunter's post, he stated that he had hunted with Pierre and considered him a friend. I am wondering why he felt that just maybe, Pierre did not have his best interests at heart. With that I would like to share with you one my own experience with this exact sort of thing. The only difference was that I had two days notice. I had booked a hunt with HHK Safaris to go to LEMCO. The trophies I wanted were Sable and Buffalo. I got an e-mail from Graham two days before I left for the hunt informing me that he would be taking me to Charisa as he felt that my chances of getting the amimals on the top of my list were greatly enhanced. I replied that when I booked with him, I had complete faith that he would provide me with the best possible hunt. Did I have a good hunt? I had a helleva safari. Did I have a good PH? Had one of the best in Brent Hein and I consider him to be a good friend and I don't think that he just considers me a client. We have done two safaris together and my expectations were not only met, but far exceeded. Oh, there were some additional costs associated with my change of areas and I believe that they were substantial. Graham assumed all additional costs and at no time, even to this day were they mentioned. If you do business with reputable people, folks that you know personally, and folks who really have your best interests in mind, things will work out beyond your expectations.

I would hope that sheephunter, Ray and Pierre work things out as there has been no rancor, or anger in anyone's posts. All have acted as gentlemen. Thanks, for allowing me to share my experiences.

HOOT

30 October 2005, 09:18

Mickey1

quote:
Originally posted by Hoot Murray:
Gentlemen,

I read all the posts on this thread. I can see there are issues on both sides. From sheephunter's post, he stated that he had hunted with Pierre and considered him a friend. I am wondering why he felt that just maybe, Pierre did not have his best interests at heart. With that I would like to share with you one my own experience with this exact sort of thing. The only difference was that I had two days notice. I had booked a hunt with HHK Safaris to go to LEMCO. The trophies I wanted were Sable and Buffalo. I got an e-mail from Graham two days before I left for the hunt informing me that he would be taking me to Charisa as he felt that my chances of getting the amimals on the top of my list were greatly enhanced. I replied that when I booked with him, I had complete faith that he would provide me with the best possible hunt. Did I have a good hunt? I had a helleva safari. Did I have a good PH? Had one of the best in Brent Hein and I consider him to be a good friend and I don't think that he just considers me a client. We have done two safaris together and my expectations were not only met, but far exceeded. Oh, there were some additional costs associated with my change of areas and I believe that they were substantial. Graham assumed all additional costs and at no time, even to this day were they mentioned. If you do business with reputable people, folks that you know personally, and folks who really have your best interests in mind, things will work out beyond your expectations.

I would hope that sheephunter, Ray and Pierre work things out as there has been no rancor, or anger in anyone's posts. All have acted as gentlemen. Thanks, for allowing me to share my experiences.

HOOT

Hoot

Read Sheephunters Hunt Report. He had a crappy hunt. All of his fears came true.

30 October 2005, 09:27

lawndart

quote:
Sheephunter,
I just got a couple of emails from AJ van Heerden who has been hunting the Kigosi all year, he shot two nice elephant but has not seen a Lion..Would like a copy or his email.

Lions are like that, and I would have thought you would buy Masai cattle for bait if you found a big lion track? I am sure Pierre suggested that?

Sorry you didn't get a Lion, but Lions never come easy...

Yeah, and it's all his fault for not buying Masai cattle.

30 October 2005, 09:49

Mickey1

quote:
Originally posted by lawndart:
quote:
Sheephunter,
I just got a couple of emails from AJ van Heerden who has been hunting the Kigosi all year, he shot two nice elephant but has not seen a Lion..Would like a copy or his email.

Lions are like that, and I would have thought you would buy Masai cattle for bait if you found a big lion track? I am sure Pierre suggested that?

Sorry you didn't get a Lion, but Lions never come easy...

Yeah, and it's all his fault for not buying Masai cattle.

From Sheephunters Report

quote:
We bought skinny cattle from the Masai at steep prices for bait.

30 October 2005, 10:25

NitroX

Just what is the situation when you represent to be able to sell a hunt in a concession where you do not have current access and negotiations fail and then switch the client to a lesser area without consultation in the last week?

That's my reading through the guff on this thread.

Highlights the importance of getting the details on a safari contract so unilateral changes are not possible at the "last moment".

If it all worked out good in the end, well then good, but no elephant, no lion, and a 35" buffalo out of a very expensive safari?

30 October 2005, 10:27

NitroX

quote:
Originally posted by lawndart:
quote:
Sheephunter,
I just got a couple of emails from AJ van Heerden who has been hunting the Kigosi all year, he shot two nice elephant but has not seen a Lion..Would like a copy or his email.

Lions are like that, and I would have thought you would buy Masai cattle for bait if you found a big lion track? I am sure Pierre suggested that?

Sorry you didn't get a Lion, but Lions never come easy...

Yeah, and it's all his fault for not buying Masai cattle.

30 October 2005, 11:20

lawndart

quote:
From Sheephunters Report

quote:
We bought skinny cattle from the Masai at steep prices for bait.

Oops,
My bad; I meant to say, "yeah, and its all his fault for not buying enough Masai cattle for bait. They are kind of skinny this year".

30 October 2005, 13:28

ErikD

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:

Sheephunter,
You paint yourself in a wonderful light and that is fine, but the facts are you have consulted with 3 or 4 different operators and they have all plied you with wonderful information and advised you that you would not kill a Lion with Pierre, but that you should go with them to be successful, so you got confused, greedy and things got out of hand

Seems to me that these 3 or 4 other operators were right, and perhaps knew a thing or two about the area that Ray and Pierre didn't inform Sheephunter of... And I still don't see how Sheephunter was "greedy" in anyway just because he wanted to check out options with others, and especially when Ray and Pierre suddenly change important things only a week before Sheephunter was supposed to leave.

I think that quite a few posters here on AR owe Sheephunter a public apology for jumping on him when he started asking questions. Questions that were obviously justified...

30 October 2005, 17:34

500grains

Sheephunter deserves a full refund.

30 October 2005, 18:17

T.Carr

Tanzania is a mine field, filled with too many "suitcase PHs" who show up for the season and hunt marginal concessions. A safari in Tanzania should only be booked with an outfitter that has a long term, direct and 100% control of the concession. No "suitcase PH" is going to have access to the best concessions in Tanzania. The first red flag should have been that the hunt was to be on an Intercon controlled concession. Intercon is a horrible outfitter that floods its concessions with too many PHs and too many clients, they have no interest in nor ability to deliver a first-class safari.

The Tanzania Tap Dance where promises are abundant. Unfortunately, the execution with these type of PHs and outfitters is so dependent on others that only luck will give you a decent safari. You have to eliminate as many variables as possible. Weather is a variable, but better to go with an outfitter that has proven quality concessions and take a risk with the weather, than hunting on a marginal concession.

Almost anyone can book and PH a bunch of Selous 7 day buffalo hunts, but when it comes to full-bag safaris; go with the resident outfitters who are in control of their own concessions.

Regards,

Terry

30 October 2005, 20:08

<mikeh416Rigby>

quote:
Originally posted by NitroX:
Just what is the situation when you represent to be able to sell a hunt in a concession where you do not have current access and negotiations fail and then switch the client to a lesser area without consultation in the last week?

That's my reading through the guff on this thread.

Highlights the importance of getting the details on a safari contract so unilateral changes are not possible at the "last moment".

If it all worked out good in the end, well then good, but no elephant, no lion, and a 35" buffalo out of a very expensive safari?

30 October 2005, 20:10

<mikeh416Rigby>

quote:
Originally posted by mikeh416Rigby:
quote:
Originally posted by NitroX:
Just what is the situation when you represent to be able to sell a hunt in a concession where you do not have current access and negotiations fail and then switch the client to a lesser area without consultation in the last week?

That's my reading through the guff on this thread.

Highlights the importance of getting the details on a safari contract so unilateral changes are not possible at the "last moment".

If it all worked out good in the end, well then good, but no elephant, no lion, and a 35" buffalo out of a very expensive safari?

I wonder why some agents won't work with a written contract to protect their clients.

30 October 2005, 23:51

Lightning

I find it comical that when a hunter has questions he gets called greedy. Booking agents love to come to this site to sell their hunts but when bad reports or questions or miscommunications are reported then they say that should be handled privately. Can't have it both ways on the internet.

As hunters we are to keep paying the rising prices of safari and just "trust us". Well like in any business as the product cost more the consumer ask more questions because more is at stake. I don't spend as much time buying a sandwhich as I do a $50,000 car. I just try the sandwhich and if it sucks I go buy another one.

So let me be the first to say sorry for asking questions or being to worried or anxious. Just cut all the hunts by 75% and I think you will find us hunters to be much "less difficult"

31 October 2005, 03:48

scruffy

If this was a once in a lifetime hunt ... I suspect that the client would forever feel that he never got a reasonable chance . This is all too sad.

31 October 2005, 06:01

JudgeG

For those of you who obviously confuse them... Shinola is shoe polish.

31 October 2005, 08:08

Matt Norman

Terry,

Thank You for that "suitcase PH" term! That has now entered my vocabulary as it such an accurate term. I'm not saying one way or the other that it is accurate in Sheephunter's thread. But it is a very real situation in much of African hunting.

31 October 2005, 12:18

Woodjack

Sheephunters panic created a self fullfilling prophecy. I know,cause I have done it myself. His posting though was not unreasonable.
Like someone else stated here,PH use this forum to their advantage, so should clients.
There are other PH and there are other clients, no real harm done overall. An education to us all.

"No man is your enemy,no man is your friend,but every man is your teacher"
Dont take everything that happens to heart, or life too seriously overall,cause you dont get out of it alive anyway.
and above all, be thankful for all the time you have on this planet

01 November 2005, 14:45

jbderunz

quote:
Originally posted by ErikD:
Sheephunter,

Don't let anyone on this thread convince you that you did wrong in asking an honost question!

I for one would have done anything in my power in such a situation to find out everything possible about the new area. Good or bad. Even if it meant asking a question here on AR or over on NE. And an honost, and smart, agent/PH/outfitter would have understood that IMO.

By far ERIK IS THE SHREWDEST GUY ON THIS THREAD

and NITROX has the last wordS of the story, here is my reading

first the CONTRACT is allparamount.

Then,
if someone is selling a hunt in a concession he has not access this is A FRAUD.

There is no personal offense, this is general and admitted considerations.

01 November 2005, 18:51

ErikD

I'm not sure about being shrewd as I have no personal gain going on here, but perhaps I'm perceptive.

01 November 2005, 19:21

BrooksRange

Where is the booking agent now?

Has he responded since Sheephunter's return?

It appears as though the booking agent is now avoiding the obvious...

01 November 2005, 19:23

urdubob

Wow, This is a very sad deal. I hope and pray that this all works out and every one is able to save face.

Damage controll is needed ASAP...This is not the kind of publicity any one needs.

urdubob

01 November 2005, 19:47

GeorgeS

sheephunter,

I am sorry your hunt turned into a disaster. In retrospect, I guess you should have taken the refund.

An outfitter in Zimbabwe switched my PH without informing because another client insisted on my PH as a condition of booking.

The guy I ended up with was a bandit of the lowest order.

My outfitter in Tanzania waited until the ride to the bush plane to tell me my hunt was switched from the Moyowosi to Muhesi. Needless to say, my hunt was NOT the experience I had hoped it would be. Game was scarce, the food was awful, and poachers were working the area.

It's no surprise that I haven't been back to Africa.

Good luck,
George

01 November 2005, 20:54

Mickey1

quote:
Originally posted by ErikD:
I'm not sure about being shrewd as I have no personal gain going on here, but perhaps I'm perceptive.

Erik

Perhaps you are perseptive because you are so sensitive?

01 November 2005, 21:08

GeorgeS

Another thing, sheephunter.

You are WELL within your 'rights' to have opened this thread. AR is a veritable treasure trove of information on hunting in Africa.
The odds that someone would know the answer to your question are very high, and just because information may come from a 'competitor' doesn't mean it is necessarily false; it just needs to considered with a grain of salt.

Give serious thought as to what sort of accommodation you could reach with the other principals in this dispute, and try to work it out with them.

George

01 November 2005, 21:55

ErikD

quote:
Originally posted by Mickey1:
quote:
Originally posted by ErikD:
I'm not sure about being shrewd as I have no personal gain going on here, but perhaps I'm perceptive.

Erik

Perhaps you are perseptive because you are so sensitive?

I've been told that sensitive men make the best lovers.

01 November 2005, 22:26

GeorgeS

quote:
Originally posted by ErikD:
I've been told that sensitive men make the best lovers.

Hey, Erik! Who told you that? Other 'sensitive men'? Do you like gladiator movies?

George

01 November 2005, 22:44

ErikD

Oops! I guess that sounded kind of "wrong". And could be misinterpreted!

01 November 2005, 22:48

Mickey1

quote:
Originally posted by GeorgeS:
quote:
Originally posted by ErikD:
I've been told that sensitive men make the best lovers.

Hey, Erik! Who told you that? Other 'sensitive men'? Do you like gladiator movies?

George

Well Carmello called him sensitive.

I hope Erik isn't sensitive about that.

Perhaps Carmello is perseptive?

It's been awfully quiet around here since Carmello abandoned ship, or was thrown overboard.

01 November 2005, 23:11

ErikD

quote:
Originally posted by Mickey1:
quote:
Originally posted by GeorgeS:
quote:
Originally posted by ErikD:
I've been told that sensitive men make the best lovers.

Hey, Erik! Who told you that? Other 'sensitive men'? Do you like gladiator movies?

George

Well Carmello called him sensitive. I hope Erik isn't sensitive about that.
Perhaps Carmello is perseptive?

It's been awfully quiet around here since Carmello abandoned ship, or was thrown overboard.

He's probably busy watching "Gladiator" movies.

01 November 2005, 23:16

ErikD

To bring this back on topic;

I for one am still waiting to hear on the "African Hunting Report forum" ( Sheephunters Report ) who actually controls Kigosi, and if Sheephunters hunt was ever actually booked with the concession owners.

01 November 2005, 23:26

Pete E

Eric,

Rays has posted over there already, but that issue seems to have been side stepped..

I suspect there is more to this than just this hunt..maybe some "in fighting" between safari company's/operators over concessions?

Regards,

Pete

09 November 2005, 00:33

AEI

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
Sheephunter,
You paint yourself in a wonderful light and that is fine, but the facts are you have consulted with 3 or 4 different operators and they have all plied you with wonderful information and advised you that you would not kill a Lion with Pierre, but that you should go with them to be successful, so you got confused, greedy and things got out of hand, YOU cancelled your hunt and we are in the process of a refund to you...We did not cancell you. You have been negociating with others for some time now.....We made you one hell of a deal, because you are a repeat client, did they match it? Apparantly not. All this came out of going on the internet, and the victim is you.

Now you are back on email and AR "giving me not an opertunity but an ultimatum to sit down like gentlemen and discuss the possiblity to once again takeing you hunting" but only on your terms and to the Kigosi, and again with that scolding tone that is your nature.

Your emails are such that I am not even sure what it is you want from us ...If you want to go hunt with Pierre on his original terms, then I will contact him on Sunday and try and reinstate you..

I have no axe to grind with you, I am only ticked that you went on the interntet with business and overstated your side of it, that should have remained between us..You churned the greedy people into a feeding frenzy to eat you alive!

Personally I think you should take the competition up on their offers and go to the Kigosi as that is what you want ...You are getting your money back and you can now go to the Kigosi..what could be better..Those guys ard licking there chops to get you, even the one that is in the other Masai concession wants you and his concession is the best he says. The world is your Oyster...

What has happened is that you have dug yourself a hole and can't get out of it. I am truly sorry it happened...It would have been so simple to just trust Pierre and live with the results. Don't you understand that is what every hunter does when he books a hunt...

You have to understand that since you aired this to the world, that Pierre is hesitant to hunt you ever again as you would be on the internet claiming foul if you did not shoot a black maned Lion, can't blame him for that!!...

Lion success is very low, Lions are the most sought after animal in Africa and the most expensive, and black maned Lions are as scarce as black diamonds...I know people that have spent multi bucks and have never seen a shootable Lion..

We never guarentee Lions, we don't guarentee Impala, we do guarentee that we will do our best and if that includes changing concessions then that is what we will do with you or anyone else and yes it may be at the last minute without your consent...Pierre is a better judge of that than any client, thats a plain simple and obvious fact

...Should this appeal to you then you must understand as of now that should you not get a Lion that I am forewarning you of the success rate of about 35 ot 50 percent Tanzania wide, if that. Unreasonable expectation have ruined more hunts than anything I know of...

Now I have laid it on the line as clear as possibel for your decision and what I see as options, a no more nonsence statment of fact..If you request me to do so, then I will talk to Pierre on Sunday unless someone else decides to book that time frame in the interim as its certainly up for grabs for whoever commits first..We don't want to give up that time frame and lose the money.

I have been told that you think we are bluffing???? I don't understand that thinking and I don't even know if thats true or not, but if so, it's something you should not be thinking because we don't bluff..We would rather sit in camp and play checkers than take you someplace we don't think would be successful, and that may be exactly what we will do....

Our decision was based on: the facts are the Kigosi has had 3 back to back Safaris on it, some say they killed 3 Lions, some say they killed none...FACT: EITHER WAY ITS A NO GO...The chance of 4 Lions of one concession is a joke, the chance of 2 would be close to the second coming and I also doubt that the Tanzania govt. would allow 4 lions off any concessiuon....I give you facts, not internet jabber.

You need to sit back, take a deep breath and make a decision once and for all as time is running out for us.

Either way I wish you the best of luck, I really do....

Well Ray you were right about one thing. SH certainly was the victim!