Gentlemen,
I have a Winchester M70 Stainless Classic in .375 H&H that will be going to the riflesmith for restocking later this year. The stock is a McMillan Winchester Super Grade inletted for the factory barreled action. The factory bottom metal is being replaced by a S/S Williams CNC One Piece unit. The barreled action is to be pillar bedded on custom 416 stainless steel pillars with Brownell's (Stainless)Steel Bed. The reciever scope mounting holes will be opened to 8-40s for Talley TNTs. My question is should I have this rifle rebarreled and the action trued while its there? Given a good stock, solid bedding, decent trigger, and load the rifle should be capable of MOA performance(so said the riflesmith). I've only shot the rifle with open sights and hence can't attest to its intrinsic accuracy. From a rational point of view that makes sense. However, I've heard Mr. Atkinson speak of the excellent accuracy he's had from the Walther Barrels. Which leads me to think that possibly there is something to be gained by going with an aftermarket match barrel even on a .375. Whether it be for accuracy, less fouling due to smoother lapped bore, or more tolerant of loads in general. For example, I've found custom match barrels to be more likely to shoot a wide variety of loads into respectable to excellent groups. Whereas some factory tubes appear to be far more difficult to nail down. I've had to find THE load in order for them to perform well. Hence it led me to believe, from my limited experience, that good custom barrels seem to be more forgiving. I would greatly appreciate your take. Thank you, Matt.

Matt:

Your question isn't so easy to answer for a few reasons.

I didn't pick up on how old the rifle is. I don't know your budget and finances. But it seems that you are spending a lot of money to refurbish a rifle. Naturally, several barrel makers will put up a very convincing story about how their barrels will enhance accuracy and there is indeed considerable merit in what they are saying.

There are a few different ways in which barrels are manufactured. The procedures vary. Some finished barrels, under magnification, look like a ploughed field. Others look like a piece of fine silk.

The careful, match barrel makers go to extremes to make very uniform, precision barrels. So comparing a Winchester mass produced barrel to a fine match grade barrel leads one to conclude normally that the gun will most certainly benefit from a new fine barrel.

Now the questions of chrome-moly or stainless enter the equation. Some barrel makers are saying that 90% of their replacement barrels are stainless. Stainless has some attractive metallurgical and thermal advantages. A blue receiver against a white barrel, however, may be a bit of a problem aesthetically.

The barrels weight and taper are also subject to debate. A heavier barrel is inherently more accurate. But do you want to carry it around all day?

The final questions are: Do you want bench rest accuracy in a hunting rifle? Is $250 an acceptable price to pay for replacing a mass produced barrel, particularly if it has been used, the fine accuracy edge has been shot out, or it was corroded or fouled? Would I want to be shooting HOT loads and new premium bullets such as some of the all coppers and if so should I determine my optimim shooting distances and possibly want to change the twist rate to get that optimum performance?

If I had the funds and wanted a first rate job, I would go for a new barrel.

Kendall

Matt-
I would defintely have the action taken apart and blueprinted. Lugs being lapped, threads cleaned up, etc all help ANY barrel to show better. As to the re-barrel, unless you know how well it will shoot there is no way of knowing if an aftermarket barrel is justified! Any premium barrel will cost about $400 installed, so it isn't cheap and unless warranted I wouldn't be too quick to throw out the original barrel.
Another thing. Most big bores are inherently accurate. I've never seen a 375 or bigger caliber that wouldn't shoot very well. You're not dealing with a 400yd beanfield rifle anyway, so if it will put good bullets into MOA or thereabouts you are in good shape.

I have only a simple factory barrel on my Model 70 and it will shoot better then I need to. If I can shoot a 2" group at 100 yards I'm basically done with the bench. That kind of accuracy gives me 6" at 300 yards and I will not need better then that for the big game intended. I have shot jackals and monkeys free hand at well over 100 yards and they are clearly at the small end of the scale. I would rather be in the bush learning the game then on the bench making tiny groups personally.

For the game intended using that rifle for tack driving hole touching accuracy is not at the top of my list. Feed, fire and eject is.

I can't imagine rebarreling mine unless the current barrel bends or breaks. Many people here and in general have a much different view then I do. I'm strictly a hunter and don't care to shoot that much just for fun with high powered rifles. Once mine are sighted in and my confidence is high. Then I switch to other less pounding rifles for entertainment.

I see know reason to beat myself to death with a 458, 375, 338, 300 mag etc etc. just to make holes in paper. Sure that is important and I must also do it, just not to the extreme. If I go out for a day to shoot I'll shoot several hundred through a bolt action .22 rimfire for each shot I put through a big game rifle.

Your really putting a huge investment into that 375 of yours. Hope it gets you what you hope to achieve with it. jj

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The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

Gentlemen,

The rifle is about a year and a half old with something on the order 150 rounds down the tube.

As far as finances go, I would say that I don't want to waste money, however, I don't want to wind up with a compromise result either. If a custom barrel is the way to go I'll wait until I can afford it.

The barreled action is stainless steel so a a stainless barrel would be in order. Had frankly given a good deal of thought to a #5 Pac-Nor Super Match. Which is heavier than the factory unit, though by how much I don't know exactly. Would have gone with a Stainless Krieger, however, Krieger won't make a stainless #5 contour barrel for a .375. Which is the limit my stock will accept and further about as heavy as I would want to go.

Thank you, Matt.

Btw, JJ I had not doubt where you would stand on this question;-).

Matt....when you want to do all you can to make a rifle shoot the "first" place to put your money is in a good barrel. Assuming even just barely adequate trigger and bedding, it is the barrel taht does the work.
Chris at Pac-Nor makes a great barrel and he can true-up your action and install one of his barrels very reasonably. This may be a tough time of the year to get work done as it is the hunting season.

You mentioned you are having your rifle restocked but didn't say how...wood or plastic?

I get 1.25 inch groups from my M70 classic stainless with plastic stock, even after glass bedding it.

Oh well.

Matt,
My factory Winchester M-70 Classic Stainless in 375 H&H shoots 3/4 MOA 3 shot groups with Remington factory 300 grain Swifts at an actual 2535 fps. All I did was adjust the trigger to 3.5 lbs. and epoxy the Leupold QRW bases on with JB Weld. Still hot glue bedded in the plastic stock and I am not changing anything else.

My Pre-64 Model 70 with a Douglas # 3 stainless barrel in 375 H&H, with a Brown Precision "Pounder" stock would only shoot 1.5 MOA until I did everything in the book to it including 4 lbs. of forend tip pressure re-bedding. It now shoots 3/4 MOA also with RL-15 and 300 grain Barnes X-Bullets.

The factory barrel is a lot heavier than my custom barrel, and is a lot less finicky in the accuracy department. A barrel maker name alone does not impress me.

Until you have tried the current barrel with everything else accurized, why bother to rebarrel? Some factory barrels are outstanding, some are not. I am a practical gun nut who does not have money to burn.

RAB

Matt,
Go ahead and use the barreled action as is and see how it shoots...YOu can always do that other stuff at a later date if need be...I wouldn't blueprint it or change barrels unless I was disatisfied with it...Keep in mind that the 375 isn't a varmint rifle and 1.5" at 100 is more than enough for its intended use...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Gentlemen,
I greatly appreciate your replies. It looks like I'm going to go with the stock and bedding work and give the factory barrel a try.
Regards, Matt.

Matt,

What do you want to do with your rifle? Do you have some particular type of hunting in mind or do you just want to have something accurate to shoot at the range but will be available for that bear or moose hunt in the future?

Matt,

My experience with the Stainless M70s in 375 has been very good. They tend to be more forgiving than the blued/walnut model and this is undoubtedly due to the stresses that the blued model has as a result of Winchester brazing the second recoil lug to the barrel. The Stainless model does not have the barrel mounted recoil lug.

I am probaly alone on the forums with this statement but I think the "rubber" synthetic stocks used by both Winchester and Remington are better for accuracy in the bigger calibers than a fiberglass stock.

Your comments about custom barrels being more forgiving and shooting a wider range of loadss is generally correct. They are also more likely to shoot a shot from a clean barrel or a barrel with cold hard fouling into the group.

I think if you get that rifle bedded and floated, scope mounts epoxied on and a scope that works, you will probably get some very good accuracy results. To improve on those results the best investment would be a custom match grade barrel but you might just find that the factory barrel meets your requirements.

Mike

Matt Ithink you made the right choice. As said above by a couple of gents that I usually listen to, "a couple of inches at 100 is all you need out to 300 yards". If you are doing much shooting past 300 yards you are not doing enough hunting and stalking. Good choice on gun and caliber. Good hunting. "D"

The marvelous rifles that have been made for those who shoot prairie dogs in the next time zone have given the general American hunter an unreasonable idea of what practical accuracy really means. First consider the vitals of the game your rifle is intended for. Is it the size of a walnut? Then you need walnut sized groups at whatever range you expect to shoot. Is it the size of a volley ball? Then you need "minute of volley ball" accuracy. You might feel more confidence with better than that but it's not what you NEED. JJ has it right. A .375 is a Class I DGR. Don't think tack driving, think "reliability, reliability, reliability!" Think COMBAT.
Sarge

Gentlemen,
I want to thank everyone who replied. You have given a great deal to think about. Reminds me of Jeff Cooper's often quoted saying that some folks have PII or preoccupation with inconsequential increments. I suppose my idea of a tack driving .375 probabely qualifies. Reliability indeed.
Regards, Matt.

Matt; I've had very good luck with my Model 70. It's a standard super express, manufactured in 1992, the first year ( i think) Winchester brought back the CRF in the 375 H&H. i've put at least 400 rounds through it, mostly my handloads. i've done nothing to the rifle, except lighten the trigger pull to 3lbs. With my handloads, i can shoot 3 rounds into one jagged hole at 100 yards or about 3/8". i guess I've just been fortunate with all my Winchesters. they all shoot! On my recent trip to Zimbabwe, I shot five anumals with the 375 ranging from eland to a Tsesebee, all one shot kills. Can't askfor better than that! jorge

jorge:

What load did you use in your 375?

The .375 H&H is an inherently accurate round that will typically shoot a wide variety of loads well. It's not a complicated or fussy cartridge in any way, shape, or form. I've never owned one that wouldn't shoot at least three shots into an inch or so at 100 yards, and my current rifle can keep five shot in a half-inch if I'm having a good shooting day.

If a given .375 H&H rifle won't produce consistent 1.5" groups or better at 100 yards, I immediately conclude that there's some sort of mechanical problem afoot that needs to be sorted out. I know one guy who's owned the same .375 H&H for close to twenty years. He's never gotten groups of any better than 4" with it. Instead of spending some money to get it properly bedded and adjusted by an expert, he's convinced there's some magic load out there, just waiting to be discovered, that will turn his rifle into a tackdriver. So far, he's had no luck, and he's still too blooming tight-fisted to hire a good gunsmith..........

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