I just returned from a Kalahari tracking leopard hunt at Grassland Safaris in Botswana. We couldn't get a male in the area so we decided to take a large female (legal as they are all ruled problem animals). She had two cubs, one about 4-5 months and the other about a year. We did a live capture on both of them (a whole story in itself). The Safari company owner Willie De Graff, was attacked by the smaller leopard (around 6 kilos) when he tried to pull it off one of his dogs. He needed a few stitches on his right hand and foot along with a tetanus shot. The cat was grabbed by several of the bushman trackers and tied up. The older cub ( around 13 kilos) also partially broke free from her restraints and caused six grown me to quickly flee the bucky. It wasn't a big cat, but 30 pounds of pissed off chain saw was intimidating enough. We got up with the mother the next day and I blasted her as quickly as possible. Even the little ones will get you. Willie De Graff was badly mauled 4 years ago by a big male and nearly died from the loss of blood. Both leopards are now in captivity. He also has 13 lions and 14 wild dogs that he has captured.

You can borrow money, but you can't borrow time. Go now.

Why would you knowingly kill a mother with cubs?? You just condemed those cubs to a miserable life in prison with no chance of parol.. And for what, so you could have your leopard to take home as show off to all your buddys?? Problem animal or not, I think what you did is wrong..

I have a friend who UNKNOWINGLY did that in Utah on a bear with cubs and he almost ended up spending time in jail and on top of that had to pay one helluva fine.. And then he had the emotional end of it.. he felt horrible about the accident that he caused. He sure as hell wasn't bragging about the expirience on the internet..

quote:

Originally posted by Scottyboy:
Why would you knowingly kill a mother with cubs?? You just condemed those cubs to a miserable life in prison with no chance of parol.. And for what, so you could have your leopard to take home as show off to all your buddys?? Problem animal or not, I think what you did is wrong..

I have a friend who UNKNOWINGLY did that in Utah on a bear with cubs and he almost ended up spending time in jail and on top of that had to pay one helluva fine.. And then he had the emotional end of it.. he felt horrible about the accident that he caused. He sure as hell wasn't bragging about the expirience on the internet..

I agree...

Yes kitties are problems in some areas, but killing one and basically condeming the other two to captivity is WRONG in my book.

Would it be out of place if I wish he would have got his ass completely clawed off?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Would it be out of place if I wish he would have got his ass completely clawed off?

no

Will, I think you are on the right track.

quote:

Originally posted by corecpa:
I just returned from a Kalahari tracking leopard hunt at Grassland Safaris in Botswana. We couldn't get a male in the area so we decided to take a large female (legal as they are all ruled problem animals). She had two cubs, one about 4-5 months and the other about a year. We did a live capture on both of them (a whole story in itself). The Safari company owner Willie De Graff, was attacked by the smaller leopard (around 6 kilos) when he tried to pull it off one of his dogs. He needed a few stitches on his right hand and foot along with a tetanus shot. The cat was grabbed by several of the bushman trackers and tied up. The older cub ( around 13 kilos) also partially broke free from her restraints and caused six grown me to quickly flee the bucky. It wasn't a big cat, but 30 pounds of pissed off chain saw was intimidating enough. We got up with the mother the next day and I blasted her as quickly as possible. Even the little ones will get you. Willie De Graff was badly mauled 4 years ago by a big male and nearly died from the loss of blood. Both leopards are now in captivity. He also has 13 lions and 14 wild dogs that he has captured.

You can borrow money, but you can't borrow time. Go now.

What safari company was this with? I need to make a note never to book with them.

Sorry my friend, but I think that killing a female with cubs is a disgrace....your PH should especially be ashamed of himself.
How the hell did you agree to kill that cat?

That is disgusting!!!! You then brag about it, fueling anti-hunters with more ammo!!
Don't you feel shame?????

Corecpa,
I read your post over again, and I still can't believe that you feel good about killing that mother cat, especially after the fiasco with those kittens. That PH sounds like a total asshole and he deserves more than just a few stitches!
I just returned from Zimbabwe a few days ago after finally taking my Leopard. I shot him over bait after 5 days of hunting him....the feeling was un-describable and sacred. I am not trying to put you down, don't get me wrong, but I feel that you got cheated out of the experience of it all. Your PH should have never let that happen....problem animal my ass...did he charge you for it??
Again sorry for my harsh opinion.

Wolfgar harsh opinion or not. He's an adult who knowingly killed a female with offspring. He made the choice to shoot, there seems to have been no "life or death situation". Blaiming only the PH is not 100% accurate in my view.

From Africa,

To the hunter

To the PH

www.infinito-safaris.com

Is this the place?
http://networkretailing.com/grasslands.htm

Adding up the "three additional species" using the highest priced animals makes the leopard over $11,000 in this "package".

quote:

Is this the place?
http://networkretailing.com/grasslands.htm

Looks like the place to me.

To me there is a large difference between killing a "actual problem" female and killing a female with cubs just to make a kill. So that is two less cats someone else might hunt in 3-4 years.

Sorry for both.

I really am disgusted by this. Is it legal in Bots to shoot a female Leopard with cubs? I find it hard to believe that "they are all ruled problem animals." Can anyone confirm or disprove this?

Talk about giving hunters a bad name!!! I mean Jeez, shooting a female with dependant cubs! How would you possibly think that would be alright? Regardless of the legality of it.... It is so unethical that you really should know better.

You should give a few grand to a Botswana Leopard conservation program to partially make up for taking two cubs out of the environment and forcing them into a life of captivity.

Are you really proud of this?

Someone should report the PH to the proper authorities in Botswana.

Where was mom during this? Doesn't make sense.

Did you know the cat had young or not?

In a previous post you claim to be a Gigilo. Maybe you should stick to that and leave hunting to those with some ethics. By the way it's spelled Gigolo.
Cheers!

And you guy give Mark Sulivan a hard time. He's got nothing on Wille.

sad thing and difficult to believe

quote:

Did you know the cat had young or not?

As I read it they caught the cubs then shoot the mother the NEXT day. So I would say he knew she had young.

This threrad's not going the way you thought it would,huh Skippy?

Or maybe it is,huh TROLL?

quote:

Originally posted by oupa:
Is this the place? http://networkretailing.com/grasslands.htm

Yes, scroll down this page: http://bigfivehq.com/safaris.html

I PM'ed the booking agent for this PH [who did NOT book this hunt/hunter] so that he is aware of the thread.

quote:

Originally posted by DaveP:

Or maybe it is,huh TROLL?

I'm wondering the same thing.

corecpa, hey dickhead!!! what were you thinking?????

[/QUOTE] corecpa obviously didn't think this unusual or improper, or he wouldn't have posted it. Sounds like he is echoing the beliefs of the PH here.[/QUOTE]

That may be so, but doesn't shooting a female with dependant cubs fall under the social norms of "Women and children first" or the story of Roosevelt refusing to shoot a bear cub. These are ideas are widely accepted in society. It doesn't take a knowledge of Botswana game laws to see it's morally wrong.

Ok. wait a minute. Your telling me you managed to live capture two dependant cubs, without mommy doing the mauling?

Yeah, you got my bullshit meter pegged.

Glad to see that I wasn't the only one here that saw the problem in this guy's post..

It seems to me that this guy knew what he did.. He plainly states that they caught the two cubs and then went out and shot the mother cat..

What kind of an asshole, doushe bag person would do this and attempt to call himself a hunter??

This has got to be either a BS post, or the guy just doesn't give a rat's ass about anyone or anything other than himself..

I would really like to hear his comeback after reading all of these comments.

I find myself quoting lines from the movie scarface alot. There is usually a line that fits most of lifes situations. In this case the appropiate line is " why don't you stick your head up your kulu and see if it fits!"

Judging by the overwhelming negative response to my topic, none of you would consider shooting a female leopard ethical unless it was an unprovoked charge or perhaps a mercy killing of a snared animal. It would not matter if it were legal or not or if there were young offspring.

The two offspring were caught so that wouldn't perish without their mother, although I think the older one could have survived anyway. They will eventually be sold (depending on Botswana policies) or released to the CKGR when older.

I certainly would have preferred a big mature Tom, but that didn't happen. This was my third attempt after leopard and time was running out so I readily agreed to go for the female. Neither the Safari company or the PH had to twist my arm.

Overall, it was still a good hunt. I slept well and have no regrets.

I will not be making any additional comments.

Cheers


You can borrow money, but you can't borrow time. Go Now.

I know of guys that have shot females on purpose, but it is just something I would not do, especially with young.

There are all sorts of PH's (clients) that shoot females and young by mistake every year, some not much bigger than house cats.

That's where you are dead wrong... Don't try and put words in other's mouths.. I never said, nor have I read it from any other's posts that we wouldn't shoot a female leopard ...I would shoot a female leopard with no problem, AS LONG AS THERE WERE NO CUBS!! But you knowingly shot her AFTER CAPTURING HER CUBS and in turn condemed those cubs to a life in captivity for the sake of your own pleasure..

You even said it your post.. "The two offspring were caught so that wouldn't perish without their mother.."
They would have died without their mother..Period.

I don't give a shit if it was your 50th time trying to get a leopard.. what you did was wrong and I bet you know that deep down inside.. I hope you vividly see these replys from myself and the others in your head whenever you are sitting at home looking at your leopard mount.. you disgust me.

I still think the guy is a TROLL. How many people are really that clueless?

Dean

My God, this bozo has GOT to be kidding!

So, did you use the captive cubs as bait?

I suggest we let this topic die, should he be a Troll.

I must concur with the majority. A scum troll misanthrope of the highest order.

I've shot female animals before.

In Africa two come to memory that were not intentional. One was a Hartmann's Zebra. My PH and I had been chasing zebra for four days with no luck. Swirling winds, jittery animals made for some pretty hard hunting. Early on the 5th morning we spotted a lone zebra facing us 225 yards away. It watched us intently but would not move. After some time it was apparent the zebra was alone, no others around. We felt it was a stallion that had been kicked out of the herd.

I shot it in the front of the chest. When we caught up to it we were surprised to see it was a mare, very beat up with chunks of hair bitten off of its flanks and rump. Mares are rarely alone, if ever, like most female animals they are generally in the company of other females. Since it had never turned sideways we had no opportunity to look for male parts.

I also shot a cow red hartebeest once. It was in a large herd and the PH had a bull picked out but the herd was moving into and out of the brush. The one I shot was pointed out for me to shoot by the PH, I think its belly was hidden by brush and the PH made a mistake.

I have culled other females, lots of deer in the States, in Africa the list includes kudu, warthog, impala, hippo and one ele cow.

Most were for meat rations or leopard/ lion baits or cull animals.

He sez the cubs are going to be raised for re-release elsewhere...so it's transplanting problem animals. No problem...happens all the time. Yeah, they were a bit young.

The attitude against shooting female animals is a big part of why many game animals are in serious decline, at least in quality. It's been proven time and again that proper game management REQUIRES culling of females to keep the sex ratio in balance. You guys coming out totally opposed to shooting female animals are doing the game a disservice...

I once shot a mare Mt Zebra in Nambia as the property owner wanted Zebra taken off the property and he said any Zebra was fair game. I shot her at about 300 yds and the PH could not sex the animial before the shot. When we got to her we then knew it was a mare and upon opening her we discovered she was with colt. I did not feel any remorse over killing a mare with young. The owner got rid of 2 with one shot. Let er rip!

I think most people didn't have a problem with the shooting of a female.... The problem was the shooting of a female after knowing she had 2 dependant cubs.

I agree that the shooting of females of any species is necesary to control population and ratio.

Well, playing the devil's advocate here (not really to be a ). I have absolutely no issue with taking out a female animal I consider a pest/varmint whether it has dependent young or not.

Show me a fox, coyote, possum, coon, woodchuck, porcupine, etc and it's dead, babies or not. Since I am a farmer, I've had my share of grief from abundant wildlife.

I'd in fact probably kill the young as well. I see no problem here with what happened on corecpa's hunt. The area has a leopard problem, they could have also killed the cubs but they chose not to. So what?

Just another way to think about the situation, that's all.