Sako 9.3x66 -the perfect compromise?

12 November 2005, 10:59

lawndart

quote:
Lawn Dart, I had a 9.3x64 done on a pre64 M70 in '06 by simply reboring and rechambering. No rail or bolt face mods required. Bob

That sounds good. I have a Winchester classic in 6.5 x 55 that will probably be redone as a 9,3 x 64 in a year or two.

quote:
Gentlemen, we have a small, local, private sauna society in a hamlet out of town where you end the sauna with a bath in the sea. If there is ice, we just cut a hole. I have been bathing there since I was 12 years old, and even a few Finns have given an approving nod when they had tried it. I should be delighted to take either of you there as a guest should you pass by GÃ¶teborg!

Lawndart, the German tourists have been stealing those moose-signs for years so I think all the signs are welded to the posts these days...

I will partake. There is nothing like a sauna followed by a dip in clear cold water to clean out the pores and relax the mind.

I'm glad to see the manners of my German relatives have improved at least a little bit since 1940.

quote:
9.3X66
250 2756
286 2559

9.3X64
250 2979
286 2684

differance 223 with 250s
125 with 286s

It looks like the 9,3 x 66 will be very adequate for hunting under 200 meters, and the 9,3 x 64 wwould give some extra velocity to get out to 250 - 300 meters for more open country hunting.

It is all good

.

lawndart

12 November 2005, 15:36

quote:
Originally posted by wombat:
To Lawndart-yes he was the source of the reamer
To PC-there is something to be said for trying something different in life sometimes.

Wombat thats fine and if you buy heaps of brass now you will be right anyway.

Is Bob De'Vries doing your work ??

12 November 2005, 16:29

cewe

Well itÂ´ll be interesting to see how the 9.3x66 turns out. Personally I donÂ´t think weÂ´re in for any suprises.

Marterius: I might be visiting GÃ¶teborg for the book fair next fall -we might find time for a beer?

Just got back from elk hunting -in the rain. Our lady hunter made a nice shot on a calf.

12 November 2005, 16:49

Marterius

quote:
Marterius: I might be visiting GÃ¶teborg for the book fair next fall -we might find time for a beer?

Cewe, I live less then a kilometre from the fair venue. I hope to see you here at dinner!

Regards,
Martin

12 November 2005, 16:52

Marterius

quote:
I'm glad to see the manners of my German relatives have improved at least a little bit since 1940.

Lawndart,
They did not get a chance to do much harm here in Sweden back then... Perhaps those moose-signs are an attempt to compensate...

Regards,
Martin

12 November 2005, 20:07

cewe

Marterius: ItÂ´s a small world and I gladly accept your invitation.

12 November 2005, 22:04

Marterius

quote:
Marterius: ItÂ´s a small world and I gladly accept your invitation.

I look forward to it!

Regards,
Martin

13 November 2005, 06:04

RIP

quote:
Originally posted by cewe:
Compromises tend to be just that -compromises.

IMHO the 9.3x66 was created in order to create a nisch that was already filled -by the .375H&H and the 9.3x62,

Agree.

For the ultimate do-all try the .375/.338 Lapua, also known as the 9.5x69mm Tornado from our German friends.

It has the same ballistics as Saeed has proven with his .375/.404.

It goes in the same action and will have the same magazine capacity: 4 down plus one in the chamber, in a Dakota 76 African or CZ 550 Magnum, or Prechtl Mauser 98 Magnum, etc.

Or, with case length of 2.700" it could easily be made to work in a .375 H&H length Winchester M70 with special bottom metal.

Q: What is much more interesting than a 9.3x66mm?

A: 9.5mm Tornado.

Do it right or stay in the sauna.

13 November 2005, 11:14

lawndart

Sorry RIP,

I talked to uncle Herman's ghost last night and he said it definitely needed to be necked down to 9,3 to be of any use.

Lawndart

13 November 2005, 12:02

RIP

quote:
Originally posted by lawndart:
Sorry RIP,

I talked to uncle Herman's ghost last night and he said it definitely needed to be necked down to 9,3 to be of any use.

Lawndart

But Uncle Herman was a Nazi, and you shouldn't flock with the black sheep of the family, Bro'dart.

A new 9.3mm is like the greener grass on the other side of the hill, for a herd of sheep.

No apologies needed, I prefer 0.2 mm bigger. Just make it a switch-barrel for the .338 Lapua huntin' rifle ... HA!/DOA.

13 November 2005, 12:23

husky

quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
For the ultimate do-all try the .375/.338 Lapua, also known as the 9.5x69mm Tornado from our German friends.

It has the same ballistics as Saeed has proven with his .375/.404.

A: 9.5mm Tornado.

RIP,
Saeds .375/.404 is a copy of the 80(?) year old 9,5mm Miller & Val. Greiss. Made on a necked down .404 Jeffery case...

Nothing is new under the sun

Husky

13 November 2005, 13:02

RIP

quote:
Originally posted by husky:
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
For the ultimate do-all try the .375/.338 Lapua, also known as the 9.5x69mm Tornado from our German friends.

It has the same ballistics as Saeed has proven with his .375/.404.

A: 9.5mm Tornado.

RIP,
Saeds .375/.404 is a copy of the 80(?) year old 9,5mm Miller & Val. Greiss. Made on a necked down .404 Jeffery case...

Nothing is new under the sun

Husky

Not quite the same, as Saeed's is blown out a bit more, and I am well aware of the 9.5mm Miller&Greiss.

Now, the 9.5x69mm Tornado (.375/.338 Lapua Magnum) is something relatively new, dating from this century anyway. The earliest print reference to it that I have seen was 1-1-2003.

This link to a company in Germany that makes it used to work:

http://waffenjung.de/html/magnum.html

13 November 2005, 14:20

husky

RIP,
Thats possible, but the idea using the .404 case for a 9,5mm is still about 80 years and how much does the .375/.404 gain in Velocity, ME or Momentum? (which is probably most important)

13 November 2005, 15:05

D99

quote:
Originally posted by .366torque:
9.3X66
250 2756
286 2559

9.3X64
250 2979
286 2684

differance 223 with 250s
125 with 286s

Glad you posted this! Kind of brings a little honesty to the deal.

13 November 2005, 17:28

Marterius

There was a very nice ZG47 chambered for an interesting wildcat up for sale here in Sweden last year: A 338WM case necked up to 9.3; what he called 9.3x64BR.

I talked to the guy on the phone, I don't remember the ballistics but I remember being impressed by the figures...

Regards,
Martin

13 November 2005, 22:12

ALF

13 November 2005, 22:33

RIP

quote:
Originally posted by husky:
RIP,
Thats possible, but the idea using the .404 case for a 9,5mm is still about 80 years and how much does the .375/.404 gain in Velocity, ME or Momentum? (which is probably most important)

What's possible?

Date of introduction by the two Munich gunsmiths was sometime between 1910 and the early 1920's. Probably it was after the .375 H&H came out in 1912.

COTW shows a picture that is the .404 Jeffery necked down to .375, with the long neck and sloping shoulders of the original .404 Jeffery preserved, an odd duck cartridge by modern standards.

9.5x73mm Miller-Greiss Magnum Factory Ballistics

271 grain SP
Velocity 2670 fps
Energy 4310 ft-lbs.

Check out Saeed's load data in the Reloading Pages. He can get over 2900 fps with 300 grainers, though wisely stays around 2700 fps for low pressure loads.

You can check the energy and momentum calculations if you want.

Uncle Hermann preferred the 9.3x70mm offered by DWM in the 1920's. This was based on a .404 Jeffery necked down to 9.3 mm, but with a sharper shoulder and shorter neck: starting to look more like Saeed's still superior .375/.404.

9.3x70mm DWM, that is a hummer: 300grain bullet at 2789 fps for 5188 ft-lbs KE.

Harald Wolf had a nice article at the Hatari website about the 9.3x70mm. That is a worthy cartridge. Maybe they loaded that one to higher pressures than the 9.5x73mm Miller-Greiss.

I still prefer the 9.5x69mm Tornado which can beat all the above 9.3 or 9.5 mm cartridges for Mo.

HA!/DOA

13 November 2005, 22:38

RIP

quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
I find the trend in this thread interesting and actually a bit amusing.

Shooters will readily accept and use the modification or improving of a host of cartridges originally derived from something else. I mean RIP thrives on just that , take a 505 or a 338 Lapua and "improve" on it, yet when SAKO takes a 9.3x62, improves it and with a completely valid method cause it would be simple to do, suddenly everyone gets their panties all in a knot.

Why? well some argue we dont need another cartridge in the lineup ? well if that were so than we should throw cartridges of the world out the window and keep with the 30-06 only or some other choice.

Yes, Alf, we do the simple and easy things here at HA!/DOA.

1. neck up the .338 Lapua to: .375, .423, .458, with no other changes.

2. neck up the .505 Gibbs to .510 with no other changes.

This is calld the KISS principle.

Keep it simple, stupid! ...
Or, keep it simply smart.

13 November 2005, 23:24

husky

Gentlemen,
Pick your favorite:

Left to Right: 9,3x57, 9,3x62, 9,3x63, 9,3x64 Brenneke, 9,3x65R Brenneke (rimmed version of the 9,3x64), 9x3x66 SAKO, 9,3x70 and 9,3x74R

The 9,3x66 is Mr Errki Kauppi invention. He has been at SAKO for 35 years now... From the beginning the caliber was known as 9,3x66EK and When SAKO adopted it they made some minor changes as Errki told me:

"-We had however shorten the OAL from 87 mm to 85 mm, and that made bad for the powder capacity. We are using Vihtavuori N550 powder, and 4,600g is hard to fit into the case behind 18,5 gramms bullet. That lod will produce 780 m/s velocity what means 5628 J energy! This powder is only sensible for getting velocity."

13 November 2005, 23:42

RIP

9.3x70

Thanks!

14 November 2005, 07:46

lawndart

With Noslers or Woodleighs I will use the 286 grain bullet weights. With the monolithic/semi monolithic bullets I may stick to the 250 grain weight. Testing will tell.

When the Norse God of bad health relents I will go visit Erkki. It will be easy to follow my trail. Just look for moose crossing signs with well centered 9,3mm holes.

lawndart

Hey RIP,
I found an article in a cartridge collecting journal about uncle Hermann's favorite round. I can mail it to you if you want.

14 November 2005, 07:53

ALF

14 November 2005, 10:21

NitroX

quote:
Originally posted by lawndart:
I found an article in a cartridge collecting journal about uncle Hermann's favorite round. I can mail it to you if you want.

Copy to me too please.

I will load the file on the net for downloads if you wish too.

14 November 2005, 10:33

malcolm56

I'll say one thing for the 9.3x66, it sure got a lot of fellows talking----if it creates half as much interest in the gun world as it did on this forum it'll do alright.
I'm with Wombat, "there is something to be said for trying something different". I reckon Wombat will be the first in Australia with a 9.3x66, I dare say the first in the southern hemisphere.
Way to go Wombat
malcolm56

14 November 2005, 11:45

cewe

We were allied with the Germans in WWII (cause nobody else gave shit) so IÂ´m entitled to a copy!

15 November 2005, 10:28

lawndart

RIP, ALF, NitroX and cewe,

I will scan it tomorrow, upload it to http://www.yousendit.com and send you all a link to the file. As usual, if I get swamped at the clinic it might take a day or a week, but I'll get it out bye and bye.

Evidently Harald Wolf disinterred this cartridge and supplys brass to Reimar Johannsen. My GUESS is that he contracted with Horneber for some properly headstamped brass.
I will build one of these, or the equivalent based on 404 brass, someday. I suspect that the optimum case size for a fast 9,3mm might simply be a necked up 340 Weatherby or 330 Dakota case stuffed full of H 4831 or H 4350.

At a mid level officer's course in the 1980's I did my paper on the "Winter War" between Finland and uncle Joe's rabble. Is it true the Finns didn't really get pissed off until the Soviets threatened to bomb their Vodka distilleries and booby trap all their saunas?

LD

15 November 2005, 12:07

boha

quote:
At a mid level officer's course in the 1980's I did my paper on the "Winter War" between Finland and uncle Joe's rabble. Is it true the Finns didn't really get pissed off until the Soviets threatened to bomb their Vodka distilleries and booby trap all their saunas?
LD

Pretty close, friend, pretty close. Be that as it may, one of the things that saved us, besides the cold winter, marksmanship, the Suomi submachine gun and being pissed off, was the fact that cartridge factories (Lapua) were founded in the -30. We had a pretty limitless supply of small arms ammo. And JoeÂ´s rabble had a military regulation in their red army, that attacks must be performed en masse, that is all at the same time and shouting uraa, or something to that effect.
And just for the record, the Germans were not on our side during the Winter War 1939-40. No one was. There were however volunteers from Sweden and other places.
The Winter War
Today is conscription day in my town. Still, to this day, veterans of the wars attend and tell their story to our young men of 19 to be conscripted, get their health checked and get their orders and units. Conscription It is an overwhelming tradition.

Please, IÂ´d like the info aswell.

Boha

15 November 2005, 18:41

Charles_Helm

quote:
Originally posted by lawndart:
RIP, ALF, NitroX and cewe,

I will scan it tomorrow, upload it to http://www.yousendit.com and send you all a link to the file.

Can you add me to the list please?

15 November 2005, 20:34

cewe

Boha: WerenÂ´t we in some manner allied with the nazis? They had troops in Lapland and planes stationed in the South. We also received our planes from them and I donÂ´t think they were bought.

15 November 2005, 20:49

boha

quote:
Originally posted by cewe:
Boha: WerenÂ´t we in some manner allied with the nazis? They had troops in Lapland and planes stationed in the South. We also received our planes from them and I donÂ´t think they were bought.

Not during the Winter War that ended 13. March 1940. In june 1940 the Germans moved troops into Lapland as a result of negotiations and some will claim as a fait accompli. The fact was that they promised Finland the lands it lost in the Winter War as a result of the upcoming Barbarossa operation. During the Continuance War that started 22. June 1941 there were German troops in Lapland and Finland found itself at war once again, as the official history goes..

That war ended 19 September 1944 with a separate peace according to which Finland was to throw the Germans out of Lapland. Which was carried out. The Germans burnt down Lapland.

OK

16 November 2005, 01:57

lawndart

quote:
And JoeÂ´s rabble had a military regulation in their red army, that attacks must be performed en masse, that is all at the same time and shouting uraa, or something to that effect.

The main thrust of my position paper in that course was that for fighting wars in non urban areas the most effective method was to use small units of highly trained soldiers (and actively recruit experienced hunters, climbers and woodsmen) and allow them independence of action along with allowing them to use whatever weapons they wanted, and finally to make sure they were given as much ammunition, grenades, rockets, etc. as they could stand.

When I said that experienced sergeants or warrant officers were better qualified for these operations than junior officers; well that made me very popular at an OFFICERS course.

quote:
That war ended 19 September 1944 with a separate peace according to which Finland was to throw the Germans out of Lapland. Which was carried out. The Germans burnt down Lapland.

The Nazis were exceedingly evil, but you can't accuse them of a lack of enthusiasm.

Off to work now. Article in hand.

LD

16 November 2005, 04:31

RIP

Herr Dart:

Jawohl! 9.3x70mm DWM

16 November 2005, 04:49

Dave James

Have wanted a 9.3x70 every sense reading Wolf's article on it, and have talked with Sisk about his 9.3sisk,which is based on the 8mmRem mag, both should be smokers

16 November 2005, 06:07

I Bin Therbefor

You might look at the 366 DGW: it's a 416 Rigby necked down to 9.3mm size. It was built by Judson Stewart Bailey for David G Walker. As I recall, a 286 Nosler Partition with 103.0 grains of IMR7828 will make 3020 at the muzzle. Judson hunted Africa with it and had a lot of success. Again my memory says he's got an extensive report of the hunt somewhere on the web. The cartridge appears in the 10th edition of Cartridges of the World. I think the specs have been properly registered and you can buy brass from Midway. Reloading dies are available from RCBS.

16 November 2005, 08:54

lawndart

http://www.yousendit.com
Is not responding, so I will just transcribe the letter from the

International Ammunition Association, Inc. JOURNAL

September/October, 2001:

quote:
9.3 x 70 Expert Magnum

In the IAA Journal No. 420, Otto Witt asks who made this cartridge.

According to the German publication Deutsches Waffen-Journal of Oct. 1999, these cartridges are supplied by Harald Wolf of Nidrum, Belgium to the German gunmaking company of Reiner (sic) Johannsen. To supply the North American market, Johannsen Inc. of Plainfield, New Hampshire has been founded.

The history of this cartridge is quite interesting. It started in 1928, when DWM presented their case No. 569. This new design was based on the .404 Jeffrey and was intended for big game hunting in Africa.

According to Dixon, the cartridge was listed in the 1934 DWM catalog. I can't find the 9.3x70 listed in the DWM sales catalogs of 1933, 34, or 37, but it is shown in the ballistics tables of the 1934 edition of the DWM hunters' manual Patronne und Schuss. Apparently it is also listed in other editions of Patronne und Schuss.

Kenneth Crane reports in the ECCC Bulletin No. 242 that the 9.3x70 was known as a "Holland & Holland" cartridge, but the reason for this naming is unknowm.

The 9.3x70 Expert Magnum has the same case as the old 9.3x70 DWM 569 and almost the same ballistics, so what we have here is the revival of a little-known cartridge from the 1930's. Basic dimensions are: rim Dia. 13.7mm (0.539 ins), base dia. 13.75mm (0.541 ins), neck dia. 10.05mm (0.395 ins), bullet dia. 9.3mm (0.366 ins) and case length 70.2mm (2.766 ins).

(A line drawing follows the text.)

quote:
Vidar can be reached at Hesbolbakken, 22230 Skotterud, Norway

The author was Vidar Andresen

lawndart

16 November 2005, 09:01

lawndart

I think with modern powders the old cartridge is still overbore. Using either the Long Weatherby case, or the Dakota case will give plenty of velocity from reasonable powders.

Now, back home to do some charts.

Johann Karl Noch,
Oberstleutnant (ret)

16 November 2005, 10:22

ALF

16 November 2005, 15:24

husky

quote:
Originally posted by lawndart:
I think with modern powders the old cartridge is still overbore. Using either the Long Weatherby case, or the Dakota case will give plenty of velocity from reasonable powders.

Now, back home to do some charts.

Johann Karl Noch,
Oberstleutnant (ret)

How about a .366 Weatherby Short Magnum based on Gibbs big case?