quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

No sir…. Andrew represented and Sold the hunt…period.

"Andrew introduced me to the outfitter and I’m in the process of finalizing my hunt with the outfitter for 2023".

So according to your logic Andrew is liable (that is what it boils down to) because he introduced Cme to the outfitter.

There is also a strong possibility that Cme was further convinced and emboldened by the flowery comments of assurance provided by other respectable gents on the forum to book the hunt directly with the outfitter (Ibi); are they too accomplices?

I get many PM's during the year from AR members asking for boots on the ground advice concerning Alaskan guides, hunting and fishing locations, specific timing of trips, etc. I suppose I should consider stopping that help.

I too commented and gave Chanjuzi high marks, in the original thread. Thats a wild leap from advertising hunts on this forum.

I stand by my advocacy for both Nymainga and Chanjuzi. The quality of the GMA's has zero to do with these circumstances.

AND.. as I stated before, I like Andrew personally, had fun with him. But loyalty to a friend really should play no role in this subject.

quote:

If he had owned this shit and fought for the wronged individual that he DID have a responsibility to (and DOES) this NEVER would have happened

Or better still, should not have made negative comments about another popular outfitter which IMO is what triggered the flare-up.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

No sir…. Andrew represented and Sold the hunt…period.

"Andrew introduced me to the outfitter and I’m in the process of finalizing my hunt with the outfitter for 2023".

So according to your logic Andrew is liable (that is what it boils down to) because he introduced Cme to the outfitter.

There is also a strong possibility that Cme was further convinced and emboldened by the flowery comments of assurance provided by other respectable gents on the forum to book the hunt directly with the outfitter (Ibi); are they too accomplices?

I get many PM's during the year from AR members asking for boots on the ground advice concerning Alaskan guides, hunting and fishing locations, specific timing of trips, etc. I suppose I should consider stopping that help.

Only if you act as a booking agent directing when and how much money to send and if you are getting a commission. If not, you are just giving opinion and advice.

Baldry advertised, represented and sold the hunt. It matters not one wit to me if he touched the money. He acted at agent for Ibi. He is responsible to see this worked out to CME's satisfaction.

In the U.S. he would be an agent and party to the suit in contact law.

Since all the actors are in Africa, the world is what it is.

1) Do not send massive deposits,
2) Deal w someone in the US you can get service on,
3) Use Escrow,
4) Insist on a cancellation policy that is not part of an Adhesion Contract,
and
5) Stay away from Zambia. They have done this more than 2x. I personally met a gentleman that had this done to him when he booked a lion hunt.

To correct a few things and add a few things. :

1- This did not happen because Andrew attacked a popular outfitter . It happened because Andrew posted that another situation should be turned in to the FBI.

2-Andrew is complicit without a doubt . After all, were it not for Andrew, CME would not have met Ibi. Complicit is different from liable . If Andrew did not get paid on this transaction, he is not liable in my view.

3- I have seen texts as late as today between CME and Andrew. Based on these CME believes Andrew has done nothing to help. A direct quote is “ you have done fuck all to help.” That is unacceptable.

4-I see the post above that Jim made with excerpts from an article about dates . While helpful , it does not answer the question of WHEN they knew there was a problem or when they should have known there was a problem. This article also clearly establishes that the last payments were after there was a problem.

5- Personally, I think Andrew and Ibi rolled the dice on this one . They lost . They government screwed all involved royally.

+1 Larry.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:
[QUOTE]By doing so you seem to imply (and again here) that Andrew has zero responsibility…
He absolutely does
His responsibility that most here believe he has is to do everything he can to help resolve the matter and to help facilitate a refund with the outfitter he represented and sold the hunt for.

Kpoynter:

If you scroll back you will note that I have not exonerated Andrew from his responsibilities:


quote: Andrew was and is an accomplice to the bigger crook. He does bear some responsibility.



"Accomplice" is a harsh word as it brands Andrew as a partner in crime so judged by the lynching mob because that would be their opinion.

Andrew's responsibility would be that of incessantly hammering Ibi to make good with CME
in the shortest possible time frame which in all fairness I think Andrew is doing but which also has its limits or do you think he's sitting on his arse sipping scotch on the rocks watching the sun go down?

On the flip side of the coin Ibi has probably exhausted his financial resources and as he doesn't appear to have any concessions which will attract clients ($$$) has put himself between a rock and a hard place".[/QUOT


You are absolutely correct… I apologize

quote:

5- Personally, I think Andrew and Ibi rolled the dice on this one . They lost . They government screwed all involved royally.

Absolutely correct assumption and Zambia has always been the outstanding venue when it comes to squabbling over concessions.

All said and done, restitution of funds to affected parties still remains a priority but without cash in hand, a difficult one for the outfitter to execute.

Anyone who has found himself out of pocket by 80k is understandably going to feel more than just irate and with nothing forthcoming in the immediate future, is bound to address those involved with every name under the sun and doing fuck all about it, etc.

The problem remains pretty clear if Ibi has exhausted his cash flow through paying back other "first in line" clients leaving Cme high and dry with a distant hope of receiving his money in "dribs and drabs".

It is still astounding that no official representation has been made by Cme's appointed legal counsel to the Commercial section of the Zambian Embassy in Washington D.C. in obtaining its involvement on the issue but rather continuing the ongoing diatribe on a public forum which will produce nothing of substance.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
In the U.S. he would be an agent and party to the suit in contact law.

Since all the actors are in Africa, the world is what it is.

1) Do not send massive deposits,
2) Deal w someone in the US you can get service on,
3) Use Escrow,
4) Insist on a cancellation policy that is not part of an Adhesion Contract,
and
5) Stay away from Zambia. They have done this more than 2x. I personally met a gentleman that had this done to him when he booked a lion hunt.

If everyone followed this advice, not many would be able to hunt Africa!

The world does NOT revolve around America!

I have been hunting for over 40 years in Africa, I have never followed any of your advice above!

And NEVER will!

And I have never had any problems.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
In the U.S. he would be an agent and party to the suit in contact law.

Since all the actors are in Africa, the world is what it is.

1) Do not send massive deposits,
2) Deal w someone in the US you can get service on,
3) Use Escrow,
4) Insist on a cancellation policy that is not part of an Adhesion Contract,
and
5) Stay away from Zambia. They have done this more than 2x. I personally met a gentleman that had this done to him when he booked a lion hunt.

If everyone followed this advice, not many would be able to hunt Africa!

The world does NOT revolve around America!

I have been hunting for over 40 years in Africa, I have never followed any of your advice above!

And NEVER will!

And I have never had any problems.

I have to agree with you . While these solutions sound good, as a practical matter they won’t work. I wish they would work but they won’t. Very few if any outfitters could survive without the cash flow . The no shows would drastically increase .

One would like to be 100 per cent sure of the security of any money he pays in advance.

In practice, under hunting con, it is not possible.

Some trust me be found, on both sides.

There are lots of misconceptions on advance payments and escrow accounts.

A hunt cannot be started without daily fees paid.

And frankly, I wouldn’t have it any other way unless both parties know each other well enough.

African hunting is an exception to the rule in business transactions that a deposit must not be spent by the seller unless and until it has been fully earned.

I believe that is because operators are generally illiquid and financing for working capital is deemed too risky by lenders and for that and other reasons is unobtainable by them.

So, buyers/clients end up financing the sellers/operators.

Each of us has to weigh that risk and take it or leave it.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
African hunting is an exception to the rule in business transactions that a deposit must not be spent by the seller unless and until it has been fully earned.

I believe that is because operators are generally illiquid and financing for working capital is deemed too risky by lenders and for that and other reasons is unobtainable by them.

So, buyers/clients end up financing the sellers/operators.

Each of us has to weigh that risk and take it or leave it.

The whole system is geared in such a way that trust MUST be present between client and operator.

Limited animals.

Limited slots.

High investment.

The above affects both parties, so TRUST must be there.

It works most of the time.

Until a crooked operator jumps in.

Or, as more likely happens, a crooked client pops his head.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
In the U.S. he would be an agent and party to the suit in contact law.

Since all the actors are in Africa, the world is what it is.

1) Do not send massive deposits,
2) Deal w someone in the US you can get service on,
3) Use Escrow,
4) Insist on a cancellation policy that is not part of an Adhesion Contract,
and
5) Stay away from Zambia. They have done this more than 2x. I personally met a gentleman that had this done to him when he booked a lion hunt.

If everyone followed this advice, not many would be able to hunt Africa!

The world does NOT revolve around America!

I have been hunting for over 40 years in Africa, I have never followed any of your advice above!

And NEVER will!

And I have never had any problems.

I have to agree with you . While these solutions sound good, as a practical matter they won’t work. I wish they would work but they won’t. Very few if any outfitters could survive without the cash flow . The no shows would drastically increase .

I am sorry, but no.

There is no exception they my money is spent on another account.

And why should I as the buyer be expected to bare all the risk.

If you want to entire fee up front, I am not going w you. Nor will I let you control the terms of cancellation. I never had and never will.

CME got stuck with all the risk and no real means of enforcing this contest or being returned to pre-contact state. That is unacceptable. There is MO EXCUSE for it, but letting himself get taken.
See my rules to keep for getting taken.

An agent is just as liable as the principal m. Make sure you deal e someone you can perfect t service upon.

quote:

Only if you act as a booking agent directing when and how much money to send and if you are getting a commission. If not, you are just giving opinion and advice.

Is that how Andrew conducted himself with Cme or did he just give advice and recommend the outfitter as his only gain would have been to conduct the hunt and be paid for services rendered?

Well, let us put it to Andrew.

Andrew, did you receive ANY money from Ibi in connection with this hunt?

If you had, have you paid it back to Ibi?

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
In the U.S. he would be an agent and party to the suit in contact law.

Since all the actors are in Africa, the world is what it is.

1) Do not send massive deposits,
2) Deal w someone in the US you can get service on,
3) Use Escrow,
4) Insist on a cancellation policy that is not part of an Adhesion Contract,
and
5) Stay away from Zambia. They have done this more than 2x. I personally met a gentleman that had this done to him when he booked a lion hunt.

If everyone followed this advice, not many would be able to hunt Africa!

The world does NOT revolve around America!

I have been hunting for over 40 years in Africa, I have never followed any of your advice above!

And NEVER will!

And I have never had any problems.

I have to agree with you . While these solutions sound good, as a practical matter they won’t work. I wish they would work but they won’t. Very few if any outfitters could survive without the cash flow . The no shows would drastically increase .

I am sorry, but no.

There is no exception they my money is spent on another account.

And why should I as the buyer be expected to bare all the risk.

If you want to entire fee up front, I am not going w you. Nor will I let you control the terms of cancellation. I never had and never will.

CME got stuck with all the risk and no real means of enforcing this contest or being returned to pre-contact state. That is unacceptable. There is MO EXCUSE for it, but letting himself get taken.
See my rules to keep for getting taken.

An agent is just as liable as the principal m. Make sure you deal e someone you can perfect t service upon.

Let me know when you find an outfitter in Africa who doesn’t require the daily rates to be paid in advance . I’ll bet the list is very short.


Suing on something like this is in all likelihood a waste of money . Even if one wins, what are the chances of collection from someone in Africa. FYI, I once sued someone in New Zealand. Got a judgment . I am still waiting on payment over 15 years later .

I agree the agent would assuredly be sued in this country . This is not in this country .

I don’t like bearing the risk either . Unfortunately, it is the nature of the beast .

Except CME paid more than daily rates.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Except CME paid more than daily rates.

Not really…
It was a full bag 21 day safari for 2 people
His day rates were 60k and his fathers hunt was 20k
All in, if successful, total cost would have been way over 100k

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Except CME paid more than daily rates.

I'd call that an error in judgment on the part of CME if he in fact did that.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Except CME paid more than daily rates.

I'd call that an error in judgment on the part of CME if he in fact did that.

Paying the full amount for daily fees in advance is an absurdity and to pay for trophy fees in advance is unfathomable.

As mentioned earlier it is normal to put money where your mouth is in securing hunting dates by placing a deposit on the table (the acceptable norm around 50%) and the balance on arrival at destination or in camp (assuming WiFi is available).

Trophy fees and any extras are usually settled after the hunt prior to departure or by gentlemanly agreement as the case may be.

It is however the tendency by some outfitters in different countries to demand trophy fees in advance because the have prepaid for their quota and do not want to find themselves out of pocket should the client refuse to shoot an animal he is not satisfied with.

Or does the client get reimbursed for having turned down an unsatisfactory trophy?

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Except CME paid more than daily rates.

I'd call that an error in judgment on the part of CME if he in fact did that.

Paying the full amount for daily fees in advance is an absurdity and to pay for trophy fees in advance is unfathomable.

As mentioned earlier it is normal to put money where your mouth is in securing hunting dates by placing a deposit on the table (the acceptable norm around 50%) and the balance on arrival at destination or in camp (assuming WiFi is available).

Trophy fees and any extras are usually settled after the hunt prior to departure or by gentlemanly agreement as the case may be.

It is however the tendency by some outfitters in different countries to demand trophy fees in advance because the have prepaid for their quota and do not want to find themselves out of pocket should the client refuse to shoot an animal he is not satisfied with.

Or does the client get reimbursed for having turned down an unsatisfactory trophy?

And let us not forget those who demand NON REFUNDABLE trophy fees in advance!

All clients put a lot of trust in those they are booked to hunt with.

Sending large amounts of money months in advance.

Most the times it works.

Sadly, sometimes, crooks on either side, tend to throw a mon0wrench in the works!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Well, let us put it to Andrew.

Andrew, did you receive ANY money from Ibi in connection with this hunt?

If you had, have you paid it back to Ibi?

Never have I received or asked for a commission or finders fee for any hunt in my career. For example, I booked a high-cost family hunt this year in Munyamadzi (of which I am a Director) and Thor will confirm never have I asked for more than my daily rates.

I paid for a legal advisor to help Cme which he later declined. So I am at a loss to know what to do next.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Well, let us put it to Andrew.

Andrew, did you receive ANY money from Ibi in connection with this hunt?

If you had, have you paid it back to Ibi?

Never have I received or asked for a commission or finders fee for any hunt in my career. For example, I booked a high-cost family hunt this year in Munyamadzi (of which I am a Director) and Thor will confirm never have I asked for more than my daily rates.

I paid for a legal advisor to help Cme which he later declined. So I am at a loss to know what to do next.

Thank you.

Many of us knew you were a victim in this just like the client.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

Never have I received or asked for a commission or finders fee for any hunt in my career. For example, I booked a high-cost family hunt this year in Munyamadzi (of which I am a Director) and Thor will confirm never have I asked for more than my daily rates.

Did you receive your daily rates from IBI?

quote:

Originally posted by MD375:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

Never have I received or asked for a commission or finders fee for any hunt in my career. For example, I booked a high-cost family hunt this year in Munyamadzi (of which I am a Director) and Thor will confirm never have I asked for more than my daily rates.

Did you receive your daily rates from IBI?

How can he if the hunt never happened??!!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Well, let us put it to Andrew.

Andrew, did you receive ANY money from Ibi in connection with this hunt?

If you had, have you paid it back to Ibi?

Never have I received or asked for a commission or finders fee for any hunt in my career. For example, I booked a high-cost family hunt this year in Munyamadzi (of which I am a Director) and Thor will confirm never have I asked for more than my daily rates.

I paid for a legal advisor to help Cme which he later declined. So I am at a loss to know what to do next.

That’s a lie, why did said legal advisor ask me for money which you know about? I told you all of this and have it in writing. He was one of your partners on Royal Kafue, you never sent him a dollar on my behalf. If you are going to start talking facts you better tell the truth.


You just can’t help but lie. Don’t worry people will reach out and I’ll show them the communication to show once again that your word means jack shit!!!

quote:

Did you receive your daily rates from IBI?

Daily rates are paid upon conclusion of the hunt; nobody that I know pays a PH his fees in advance.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Well, let us put it to Andrew.

Andrew, did you receive ANY money from Ibi in connection with this hunt?

If you had, have you paid it back to Ibi?

Never have I received or asked for a commission or finders fee for any hunt in my career. For example, I booked a high-cost family hunt this year in Munyamadzi (of which I am a Director) and Thor will confirm never have I asked for more than my daily rates.

I paid for a legal advisor to help Cme which he later declined. So I am at a loss to know what to do next.

Thank you.

Many of us knew you were a victim in this just like the client.

Stop, you are being ridiculous now! Would you like to see the email to Andrew when I tried to cut bait with Ibi when I was 10k deep and he talked me into moving forward? Andrew uses this website to market and sell hunts. When shit hits the fan you run to protect him, when in fact, he made this mess. He chose who to get in “bed” with from a business perspective.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Did you receive your daily rates from IBI?

Daily rates are paid upon conclusion of the hunt; nobody that I know pays a PH his fees in advance.

You are literally the one person on this site that believes that. It is very clear that everyone outside of you pays day rates in advance.

That being said I’m glad you don’t have to pay until the conclusion of your hunt but here in the real world we do.

quote:

I paid for a legal advisor to help Cme which he later declined. So I am at a loss to know what to do next.

When one approaches a lawyer to ask for his services he most always charges for the consultation and as Andrew is NOT the client, the legal fees would not have been his to bear.

quote:

You are literally the one person on this site that believes that. It is very clear that everyone outside of you pays day rates in advance.

That being said I’m glad you don’t have to pay until the conclusion of your hunt but here in the real world we do.

A PH is contracted by the outfitter to whom the hunt costs have been paid and to be clear "hunt costs" are limited to the daily rates which would include the fees the outfitter would pay his contracted PH.

These fees are paid once the PH has provided the services as guide and NOT paid in advance.

Ibi is therefore still holding the PH fees.

Ibi is making lots of trips to the US and sending a son to college over here. Guess we know where my money went.

quote:

Originally posted by Cme:
Ibi is making lots of trips to the US and sending a son to college over here. Guess we know where my money went.

"Making a lot of trips to the USA"
Why haven't you put the US Marshals on to him?

It has been done before, they cornered the outfitter at the Convention and their intervention paid dividends.

You have all the great ideas!!!

quote:

That being said I’m glad you don’t have to pay until the conclusion of your hunt but here in the real world we do.

Just to keep you on the same page, I actually do live in the real world of African hunting, have done so for almost 40 years as a PH, so should know a bit about daily rates, PH rates, etc.
Unfortunately a good number of clients mistake the outfitter (owner) for a PH (contracted person) and vice-versa.

In some instances though the outfitter will also act as PH if the hunt is 1x1 or 2x1 with no other client hunters in camp which would require the services of an additional PH or more (2x2, 2x1x2, etc.).
In most African countries the rule of thumb is for each PH being limited to guide a max. 2 clients.

Andrew and his defenders need to remember, the first rule when you find yourself in a hole is to stop digging.

Let me ask for the crowd, what operators allow clients to pay the day rates after the hunt is completed? That sounds like a bad business model which would not be sustainable for the operators.

quote:

Originally posted by Cme:
Let me ask for the crowd, what operators allow clients to pay the day rates after the hunt is completed? That sounds like a bad business model which would not be sustainable for the operators.

Daily Rates & PH fees are different from one another.

If you took time to read my previous posts you will note my comment on the payment of Daily Rates (fees) and when the PH gets his dues.

Well I have only hunted in Africa a couple dozen times in approximately ten different countries and I have always been asked to pay the daily rates in advance. Perhaps my experience is unique. Not.