Here's some food for thought, what is preffered by the forum. I am an avid lover of Express rifles, BUT is bolt action with 4 rounds on hand handier? I have used both on Buffalo, and I like to unload every round I have on the beast as long as I can see it. This is a good way to put them down. Should he turn around straight away and charge, or you run out of ammo...
Torn between two worlds...

For now, having only owned bolt actions of the two mentioned, I favor them. I could never afford a fine Double anyway, so I use what I can.

I wonder, when speaking of human error with "short-stroking" a bolt gun when hunting dangerous game (wrong things happen during 'battle' right?), do any Double shooters have trouble inserting two fresh rounds, especially if the two are between the fingers of the off-hand? Do any hunters drop at least one? Just curious. I imagine it may happen, albiet rarely, but were all human. ~~~Suluuq

...I suppose it could happen, but I'be never come across it, more problematic can be the exraction of spent shells, I've had then jam in the chambers before, but I've had auto ejectors installed on my .375 H&H made by Beretta. But all in all the express should be the more reliable of the two action tyoes, hence its popularity with the early hunters of dangerous game.

I like to oversimplify.

1. Under 25 yards, use a double.

2. Over 25 yards, use a bolt.

How's that?

I suppose by "EXPRESS" you mean a double rifle? an Express rifle can be any configuration, bolt single shot, or double!

That out of the way, I would say the rifle, one uses, is only superior if he knows how to use it! A good man with a bolt action, that is in good working order, can get off the four shots faster than a good man with a good working order double rifle!You think that's true?

First lets get something straight, I am only talking about "AIMED" shots, nothing else is of any value.

Between the two equily qualified people the bolt man will NOT get the second aimed shot of as quickly as the double man, and the third round may or may not be quicker, and the fourth AIMED round will be down the road before the bolt man every time.

There are a minimum of 5 moves for every shot out of a bolt rifle= 20 moves to get off 4 rounds, actually 15 if the chamber is already loaded on the first shot, which is usually not the case, because most carry the bolt rifle chamber empty, a double is usually carried loaded. The first two shots in a double requires two moves vs five for the bolt "IF" both rifles are chamber loaded when the fight starts, and ten for the bolt if it isn't chambered. Then the double requires five moves to get off the third shot, but so does the bolt rifle. So far we have ten moves for the bolt, and seven moves for the double rifle, and to get off the fourth shot in the bolt rifle requires another five moves, but only one more move for the fourth shot from the double rifle.

You do the math!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 04-04-2002).]

Mac,

My wife Renae and I attended a Hunter's Rifle course March 23 & 24 at Front Sight, Nevada. There were nine students in the course, and all were using one or another flavor of bolt gun.

Their instruction on "running the bolt" featured vigorous manipulation of the bolt both opening and closing -- single up/back and down/forward motions vice the two-step of up and back, and forward and down. A second emphasis was on running the bolt with the rifle in the shoulder firing pocket.

I think good training like this can benefit both the double gun shoter and the magazine rifle shooter. Perfect practice makes perfect.

jim dodd

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

Jim, you are absolutely right, about a consistant drill being beneficial in the mastery of anything, not just rifles. Unfortunetly, few of the hunters I've known,in my 59 years of hunting on my own, in Asia, Africa, and North, and South America, go to any length to learn how to use the rifles they buy, especially the ones that kick a lot, or cost $10 per shot when they pull the trigger!

There is no doubt most PHs would rather have a good double rifle when backing up a city boy shooting a Cape Buffalo, or a tracked Lion. The fact is, however, these things are expensive,to buy, and more expensive to shoot regularly, and when one can buy the most reliable bolt action rifle for 6, or 7K,here I'm not talking "PRITTY", but reliable, Example: D'Arcy Echols! It stands to reason, most will have a well used bolt rifle. The fact that training will help a bolt man become as fast as lightening,for aimed shots, is just as valid with a double rifle, and the double starts out faster. If you will look at the movements you list, as "TWO MOVEMENTS" you will find they are not two movements but actually six. The fireing of the first shot over, the first movement is to leave the pistol grip, and get the bolt handle,#2 lift the bolt handle,#3 pull it back, #4 move the bolt forward,#5 lower the bolt handle, #6 get your hand back on the pistol grip, with you finger back on the trigger#(7)? squeeze the trigger again, and begin the drill all over again. Addmittedly this may seem like two movements, but the brain has to process each change in dirrection your hand must make, to accomplish a task. These 6, or 7 movements for each shot, from a bolt rifle, leaves plenty of room, for screw ups, over 4, or 5 shots. Screw ups you can't afford when faced with a Buffalo at 30 yds, and closeing fast.

I had no training with a double rifle, but 48 years of shooting, and hunting with them has led me to think I know how to use one. I am an instinctive shooter, and like Ray, I snapp shoot most of the time, with good results. At the risk of seeming arrogant, I can shoot my bolt rifles just as well, as the double rifles, and recoil doesn't seem to bother me, under hunting conditions.

The training, one gets, is only as good as the trainer, and the studant's resolve to learn. I wish more people would at least train themselves. But the key to training is to know, first, what it is you want to accomplish. To do that you must know what you are doing,right or wrong, and the way to find that out is to walk yourself through the whole process in slow motion. That is where you count your movements.Each movement requires a brain funtion. Starting in slow motion, and steadily increasing the speed, till you get to where you want to be, without haveing to think about it.

By the way I liked your article in AFRICAN HUNTER!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

The term Express Rifle has to do with the layered sights on a British rifle not the type of action...It is a design akin to our American classic...

Most express rifle can be described as low comb, cast off, egg cheek piece, short forend (9" or less), drop box magazine, quarter rib or island rear sight, barrel band front sight and sling swivel and so fouth. A double on the other hand is referred to as a double or double rifle or at least that is the termanology that I grew up with....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray, in Europe we use "Express" as a generic name for double rifles.

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Andr�

Yes Andr� is right, now that I live in Europe we use "Express" to nominate even a side by side or under & over 7x76R rifle. It's just a habbit you pick up. Aside from the definition Atkinson gave us, regarding Exrpess sights on a rifle, which you can sometimes find on bolt actions, (BRNO use then on their big bolt guns)I would use it to refer anything that spits out NitroExpress cartridges like the .470NE .700NE 740NE ect...
As to about the speed factor, which is very valid, but I dont think it can often be effectively applied to a hunting situation. After you have fired 2 from a double it is not easy to have more opportunities to fire, considering that many doubles don't mount a scope and are in calibres that are not accurate over longer ranges. And that the beasts tend to run straight into the thickest stuff they can find. I have had one experience with a scoped .375 bolt where I was able to put 5 rounds into a australian water buffalo, (he was still standing when I caught up with him) all into the vitals as he ran away across an open plain.MacD37 is right, at the end of the day, it comes down to the man behind the barrel(s). Also the shooting style you adapt, I try to unload as many AMIED shots as I can, regardless of how well placed the first one was, I dont go for the glory of a 1 shot kill with dangerous stuff, and here, the bolt suit me better. But I love big doubles anyway...