quote:

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Originally posted by HunterJim:

Does anyone have any information on who is loading the ammunition for H&H? I have emailed two people I know in the trade in the UK, but no reply yet. I was thinking KYNAMCO or Wolfgang Romey.

jim dodd

jim dodd

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Jim see my earlier post.

Kynamco will not be doing it as there have recently been problems with consistency and H&H do not want to compound Kynamco's problem be asking them to tool up for two new cartridges.

Wolfgang Romey will be making the new ammo.

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Regards

Richard

Thanks for pointing that out; I indeed missed the line with "WR and Woodleigh bullets".

Did Holland indicate that they would "release these two cartridges to the trade"? I am not sure if that terminology still holds true. It seems American custom gun makers or gun smiths will make a rifle for pretty much what the customer wants.

Anyway, I am doing the staff work to see how hard it will be to re-barrel a magazine .375 H&H to .465 H&H.

I will definitely talk to the H&H folks at the Safari Club convention in March!

jim dodd

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

Thanks for passing that anecdote along. I pester D'Arcy from time to time, so I will ask him about getting the cartridge to feed.

I have sent a query to Holland to see if they will have either the .400 H&H or the .465 H&H at the SCI show in March.

Do you have any comments on the .465 H&H in the field?...thanks

jim dodd

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

[This message has been edited by George Hoffman (edited 12-30-2001).]

quote:

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Originally posted by HunterJim:

Did Holland indicate that they would "release these two cartridges to the trade"? in March!

jim dodd

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Hi Jim . Sorry I missed this first time around.

The answer to your question is that I do not know.

Presumably someone will put together a reamer as soon as this cartridge hits the streets.

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Regards

Richard

Since we already have the 458 Watts/Lott and the 470 Capstick, the 465 H&H is silly.

Pointless. Moot. Redundant. Someone's marketing scheme for that little niche.

But then again, when did practicality ever enter the gun nut's mind?

Is there a new disease out there, "noveau nostalgia," a longing for the new-old idea renamed with the H&H moniker? I'll bet there won't be too many jumping onto that bandwagon.

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Happiness is a warm double.
RAB

If we shooters and hunters actually thought it silly to bring out a new cartridge, there must be a lot of silliness going on out there!

Of course your comment on niche marketing is spot on, and is something the English gun makers have known for over 100 years. The fact reported by Deerdogs that they have orders in hand for H&H rifles is interesting -- does anyone know what number of magazine rifles Holland needs to build a year to keep the firm running? This kind of data might not be generally known, but of course would be part of their business plan (assuming they have such a modern thing)!

I admit in being interested in converting my .375 H&H BRNO, but that would be for an elephant hunt that is still some years in the future. I am also interested in Jeri Ryan too.

George Hoffman's comments on field experience above prove that we could get along on one caliber, but would that be as much fun? Look at how hard it is to convince people on this forum that they should start with a .375 H&H!

jim dodd

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

------------------
Happiness is a warm double.
RAB

One thing I really like about magazine rifles is you can build the rifle you want in stages, or at least pay for it in stages. Hard to do with a double.

I won't be buying any H&H Royals either bolt or magazine. I would rther spend enough on the safari tools, and put the rest into the hunt budget. But there are people who can do both, so I get to at least lookat those rifles and handle them.

But I was in the John Rigby booth at the SCI Convention in Reno the year after they introduced the .450 Rigby. They had one field grade gun as a show special for $9,000 (regular price was Pounds Sterling 9,000). That rifle fit me perfectly, and the action was the prettiest BRNO I have ever seen (you had to look hard to see where it came from).

jim dodd

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

It is based on a blown-out 375 H&H case, shortened just enough to fit in a standard mauser action.

The bullet is .411 caliber and comes in three 400 gr. loads. These are a roundnose softpoint, a bonded core "hollow point", and a jacketed solid.

This seems like a fine round that is twenty years late. This niche is quickly getting crowded.

They have replied that they plan to have examples available at the show, Lord Harry willing and the creek don't rise. So definitely a work in progress.

After reading about the bullet diameter and types planned for the .400 H&H, I was reminded of the .400 Pondoro and the .411 KDF. Neither became big factory production rounds, remaining at the proprietary cartridge level for a time. The arrival of the .416 Remington as a product from Big Green left those two otherwise fine cartridges with only their dedicated fans.

By the way, Dr. Don Heath the Editor of AH was mentioning to me that they have reports of pressure spikes in .416 Remington rifles. I will post any additional information.

jim dodd

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

In today's email the Holland & Holland factory advises that they are still sorting out the details of the new cartridges. I didn't expect this much of a moving target, but hey I have been wrong before.

jim dodd

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

I expect that you personally have never killed anything with a .468" bullet. I have.

"Balance" in a hunting firearm is best left describe how the rifle feels in your hands and how it handles as the hunter uses it.

I certainly would like to see your data that supports that a bullets in a band around a sectional density of .300 is about right.

Sorry for my written tirade, but one of the things that annoys me about posts on these subjects are opinions that have no basis in fact and scientific analysis.

Holland and Holland represent a great tradition, but they are not anywhere near the best at ballistics.

Good Hunting !

[This message has been edited by Pumba (edited 01-16-2002).]

.45 and .50 yes, .465 no.

My band of SDs around .300 as being effective for penetration is based on the work of several experimenters, the most thorough being Mike LaGrange. Please see his work "Ballistics in Perspective". Also you might want to read what the legendary John (Pondoro) Taylor has to say in his book "African Rifles and Cartridges" on Holland's .465 NE and similar rifles. Finally we have a poster on this forum -- Harald -- who has done a lot of analytical and experimental work. His web site has some really interesting information on terminal and wound ballistics. Please also see George Hoffman's post above above; Taylor and George H. both say that the .450 to .470 large bores give equal results with the same bullet design.

So is the .465 NE balanced, and the .465 H&H is not?

There must be balance in the three ballistics domains (interior, exterior and terminal), as the rifle itself requires balance. I know from my own experience that sectional density can be too low for adequate penetration, but sectional density can be too high as well for a balanced cartridge. Based on the reading of studies I have done I am saying that the acceptable band for hunting rifles with conventional bullets includes the value .300. I didn't make any claim to special knowledge of where the endpoints of the band are.

Based on other interviews I have done with gun manufacturers I well know that sometimes their choices are set by marketing and sales departments, not just the techies in the back room.

If you want to check out the potential of the .400 H&H, take a look at the write-up for the .400 Pondoro in the A-Square loading manual.

I don't propose to conduct a series of experiments in a lab each time I do a post on Saeed's Most Excellent Forums. Mostly I depend on the work of the giants that came before, plus my own limited experience.

jim dodd

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

[This message has been edited by HunterJim (edited 01-13-2002).]

Bullet length may be excessive with monometal bullets of higher SD, depending on design, and you can certainly make use of higher SD with the shorter tungsten and lead core bullets.

The monometal GS Custom FN of .416 caliber and 380 grains has SD = 0.314 if I recall correctly. It was great for my limited use, a one shot cape buffalo killer, and it would pass through consecutive umbrella thorn tree trunks of 16" and 12" diameter in a row, like a laser.

What is the optimum SD? Well, it depends. I am happy when it is at least 0.300.

Science on this is hard to come by, given all the vagaries of game animal construction and bullet construction. Science anyone?

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Happiness is a warm double.
RAB