21 December 2001, 11:58
John S
www.hollandandholland.com/news/0107_cartridges.htm
[This message has been edited by John S (edited 12-20-2001).]
[This message has been edited by John S (edited 12-20-2001).]
The first step is admitting you have a problem... I am screwed.
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Wendell Reich
Hunter's Quest International
[This message has been edited by Buffalobwana (edited 12-20-2001).]
Another one?...
Antonio
From the text, it looks like the bullets are indeed .400" and .465" nominal Diameters. Couldn't find any other data to confirm this, though. I wish they had picture/sketches of these new cartridges!
Bill
I heard that they charge $1000 per round for 700 NE ammo (reloads run about $65 per round). Has anyone else heard that?
quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
As I think about this more, I am beginning to suspec that H&H wants proprietary chamberings for its rifles so that it can charge $500 a box for ammo.I heard that they charge $1000 per round for 700 NE ammo (reloads run about $65 per round). Has anyone else heard that?
I hope you are off by an order of magnitude! The article I read about the 700 NE stated ammo was $100 a round. Brass and component bullets are very expensive, but not that exspensive.
What the world needs most is new hunting calibers, none of the old ones worked.
Bjorn
Brass goes for $35 each, bullets are $4 each plus powder.
A ph who knows 2 guys who have H&H 700's told me that Holland and Holland charges them $1000 per round for loaded ammo. I am just looking for independent confirmation. I guess I could call H&H on the phone and ask, but...
quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:Brass goes for $35 each, bullets are $4 each plus powder.
A ph who knows 2 guys who have H&H 700's told me that Holland and Holland charges them $1000 per round for loaded ammo. I am just looking for independent confirmation. I guess I could call H&H on the phone and ask, but...
If H&H can pull that off, more power to them! Perhaps $1k per box?
In addition, the ballistics of the .400H&H are roughly equivalent to the .416Rigby, and the .465H&H is equivalent to a .458 Lott.
They're trying to break into a crowded field.
George
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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!
Don't get so excited. Just because we won't have to use those OLD .416 Rigbys and .470 Nitro's. Not to speak of that old fashioned .375 H&H. Another case of fixing something that wasn't broken or, if you will, a solution for which there was no problem!
Rich Elliott
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Ethiopian Rift Valley Safaris
Sorry, I was feeling a bit facetious there.
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When in doubt, do a nuclear strike.
More importantly, I hope there is something left to hunt with them.
Will
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-21-2001).]
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When in doubt, do a nuclear strike.
Hmmm, that would mean a .400 bullet would become available, which would mean we could make a .400 Whelen that had enough shoulder to headspace........
Bring it on! LOL! Dutch.
(man, I've got it bad)!
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When in doubt, do a nuclear strike.
This is the niche between .375 and .416 caliber that has been too sparsely populated for far too long. There never has been enough of those 10mm/.40 caliber bullets of premium construction. Surely H&H will fix this!
Now the indecisive with trouble deciding between .375 and .416 will have it easy, if not cheap. 
I can't wait. Yawn. I just hope they don't use that dreadful belted H&H case. Surely they will come up with a totally new beltless case with an unheard of head size and non-rebated rim. HO HUM.
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So many bovids! So little time and money!
RAB
quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
Gentlemen:
Their choices in accesories, clothing, caliber and guns are of such a nature that they will always be in a market-niche where the catering is done for those with a taste for the very best, the very expensive and last but not least with extreme exclusivity.ie guns and calibers where the shooter can truelly claim he owns a first or at least one of a very select few.
[This message has been edited by ALF (edited 12-21-2001).]
They also have quite a few Sako's in the rack.....
I guess Mr Boddington will lift these cartridges to the sky, if he can go hunting and get a few free rifle from H&H. Most likely H&H are NOT giving away rifles even if you are Brigadier general and smart ass turkey from USA.
I hope they use the old 375 H&H case with the belt reamed off.I'm looking forward to hear about the new cases.
quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
I heard that they charge $1000 per round for 700 NE ammo
I think you're off by a factor of 10. The figure I read for 700 NE ammunition was $100 per round.
They had 8 on order already.
Here is a scan of a hand-out he gave me.
In addition to the Sakos in the rack I spotted a couple of Ruger Number 1s in 375H&H and 416 Rigby. Also a very nice H&H 300H&H Bolt rifle � yours for �13,000!
Interestingly they had just delivered a 465 (I think he said) Ackley bolt rifle with a full-length stock and a 20 inch barrel � unusual.
They showed me a nice new 500 in a new grade of double they are making. They are calling it the �Field Grade� and the cost will be �40,000. Previously their double started at �75,000. Here is a photo I took of two prototypes in 300 H&H and 500 (top). Anyone tempted?
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Regards
Richard
[This message has been edited by Deerdogs (edited 12-21-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Deerdogs (edited 12-21-2001).]
400 grains at .400" give a very large SD of .357, so these bullets should out-penetrate 400gr/416 and 300gr/375 bullets.
Are the new cases beltless or did they keep the belt of the 416 Rem case?
Any idea what bullets they will load?
Antonio
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When in doubt, do a nuclear strike.
Rusty
We band of brothers!
I think this is when the theory of relativity comes into play. (Not Albert E's Theory)
Relative to the cost of a Remchester it makes the average guy week in the knees.
However, relative to the $110,000 price tag on the standard H&H double (before adding options) it is a gun for the peasants and servants to bring to the field. I'm sure no "real gentleman" would bring such a crude device to the hunt. 
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J.W.
They have retained the belt and with the long shallow shoulder they will need this to headspace from.
Regarding bullets - I understand that despite its name the 400H&H will use .416" bullets (in the same way .318 Westley Richards is a .33 bullet). I presume they are measuring the 400 land to land.
Indeed the factory cartridges are to be produced by Wolfgang Romey using Woodleigh bullets.
Wachtel: H&H are closest but Boss, William Evans and Purdey are all within 10 minutes walk! I wish I had the money to be a regular customer rather than a regular drooler!
Happy Christmas all.
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Regards
Richard
If I take what they write in their web site copy literally, they are going to use a .400" diameter bullet for the 400 Holland and Holland, and a .465" bullet for the 465 Holland and Holland.
As regards the 400 H&H, a 400 grain bullet at 2,350 fps is not competitive with the 416 Remington or the 416 Rigby. I do not understand why they didn't match the 416 Remington's 2,400 fps muzzle velocity.
As regards the 465 H&H, a 480 grain bullet is too light. This diameter bullet should weight 535 grains to match the sectional density of the 500 grain .458" bullet and the original 410 grain .416" bullet.
Sorry, but I don't think they have their act together on this one.
Good Hunting !
Let me preface my remarks with the Chinese proverb "The excellent is the enemy of the good".
Second cartridges -- and rifles too -- need balance to work well in the field.
Gunmaker Holland has their own tradition, and it looks like to this outsider that they are remaining true to their design principles with these cartridges. Their design looks to offer reliable feeding, safe pressures in hot climates and adequate magazine capacity in a rifle. These designs look balanced to me.
A .400 caliber 400 grain bullet at 2,350 fps muzzle velocity is certainly competitive with a .416 grain bullet at 2,400 fps in the hunting field, but perhaps not in the marketing brochure.
Field use of the .500-.465 H&H for getting on to the century mark also demonstrates that the 480 grain bullets they load in the cartridge works, and works well. And that cartridge was loaded to 2,150 fps MV IIRC.
I don't know if the SD of a .458"/500 grain bullet is a magic point, but I expect that it is not. Another rule of thumb is an SD of at least .300 is required for these cartridges. I expect that this rule is not exact either, but somewhere around that point there is a band of sectional densities that works. You don't want the bullet too short, or too long.
I have a BRNO 602 in .375 H&H that I was thinking about rebarelling from a medium to a heavy, and the .465 H&H would work fine for me.
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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."
Now all I have to do is line up the gunsmith, the barrel, a reamer and some kind of supply of factory cases (or ammo), but tasks like these are almost as much fun as shooting!
I will report on progress.
Does anyone have any information on who is loading the ammunition for H&H? I have emailed two people I know in the trade in the UK, but no reply yet. I was thinking KYNAMCO or Wolfgang Romey.
jim dodd
jim dodd
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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."