I would be interested in hearing the thoughts of those who have hunted buffalo with .400+ calibers using either or both type bullets. Specific examples of bullets exiting or not exiting and the shot paths they described would elevate the discussion. Did you note correlations to hit location, bones struck, bullet weight, nose shape, bullet construction, velocity, brand of bullet, etc.?

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

I am little experienced, but have taken three big bovids. The best results I had were with the GSC FN, a solid super penetrator flat nosed devastator.

I will get out of the way now.

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RAB

Taylor was right.

In fact, I would be very careful using some of the premium bullets in a herd nowadays without making sure of the angle of the bullet.

Bullets like the Barnes X, GS, Bear claws and Swift A-Frame might very well go through a buffalo at certain angles. And of course one would face the same problem as with a solid.

I have shot quite a few buffalo, and if my memory serves me right, only two were shot with solids. And apart from a few shot with the Bear Claws, most where with the Barnes X.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Broadside with 585 nyati and TCCI 750 grain monolithic solid. The bullet broke the shoulder on the way in and exited.

I have shot several buffalo with the 505 Gibbs. I try and shot head on and I have been successful except once when I shot broadside / quartering slightly away. All shots with 525 grain Woodleigh. The exception was a complete penetration shot. The lengthwise shots as well as I can remember penetrated to the hind quarters and stopped.

I have shot a few american Bison with my 500 AHR. These were 570 grain Woodleighs. All were frontal head shots. Penetration was complete on 4 animals with the last (a cow) stopping in the right rear leg (the leg bone stopped the bullet, this bone was fractured). The 4 mature bulls weighed in around 1800 - 2000 pounds on the hoof, the cow weighed 1487 pounds. I actually had the cow weighed. This was accomplished using truck axle scales we weighed the truck with the cow and then without. Accuracy should be +/- 50 pounds.

The 505 Gibbs load was a 525 grains Woodleigh and 130 grains of IMR 4350. I do not know the velocity. The 500 AHR load velocity was on average 2487 fps. I have since turned it down to 2400 fps since I was experiencing near bullet failures at that velocity with the Woodleigh bullet.

I have a couple recovered bullets but I cannot post the pics. I suppose I could email the pictures to you Harald if you would like.

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 03-10-2002).]

It's the individual hunter's responsibility as far as bullet choice and shot choice. Any bullet can exit every once in a while. The trouble is that any choice you make will sometimes be wrong for the situation you find yourself in when the dust is flying.

I personally would use the FNs for trophy bull hunting where it's often small groups of Dagga boys. If I was culling a herd I'd probably use Swifts (or Hornadys), which (from reading) are much less likely to make it through the offside hide.

FWIW,
Don

My rifle was built by AHR. It weighs about 11 pounds without the scope. It has a 26 in barrel with the muzzle brake the barrel length is 27.5 in. I balances well. The rifle was restocked in turkish walnut.

The recoil is dependant upon how hot you load it. I have never fired a 500 A Square so I cannot tell you how the two compare. I have loaded my 500 AHR up to 2680 fps with the 570 Woodleigh. At that velocity recoil is pretty stiff.

Todd E

The ONLY one shot kills I have on Buffalo have been with 300 gr Nosler partitions from a 375 H&H, all others took more than two, unless the brain, or spine were hit! The solids almost always shoot through, the softs sometimes do, but usually stop against the skin on the off side.

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

Personally, I always want an exit hole for more bleeding, less breathing, and easier tracking. I just plain wouldn't shoot if it's a herd situation and a given animal can't be singled out for a safe shot. The guns that guys on this board shoot would go through and through every time I should think - even on an african buffalo.

Brent

[This message has been edited by alekojjensen (edited 03-12-2002).]

On your second shot, your animal will either be down or running away with the herd.

If he is down, odds are there will not be any other animals standing behind him, so bang away and let the bullets exit.

If he is running away you are not going to try a shot with ANY round if there are animals around or behind him.

I am not good enough of a shot, or foolish enough to shoot a running animal with another animal in the background.

The soft followed by a solid is a pretty reasonable combination in most situations.

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Wendell Reich
Hunter's Quest International

Where do you hunt buffalo? I would like to hunt there! The buffalo I have hunted have proved to be very protective of their friends. I have been charged by the nonwounded/shot. It was like a charge by proxy thing. Buffalo will not necessarily just run away because you shot one. They may in fact run toward you!

Todd E

quote:

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Originally posted by Todd E:
It was like a charge by proxy thing.

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Interesting. I'll remember this.

Russ

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"Out here, 'due process' is a bullet!" -- John Wayne, "The Green Berets"

That's why we hunt Buffalo. There is no telling what will happen. Each and every Buffalo hunt is different.

You will have to shoot a bunch of Buffalo in a bunch of different areas to get a good average of what the rest of the herd will do.

My post tried to point out that there are no general rules that you can count on during this part of your hunt and that the "soft followed by solids" rule will cover a majority of the situations and is a pretty good idea. In general.

There are 100 guys who can come forward right now and prove me wrong with stories of what their Buffalo did. I am not looking for exceptions to the general rule, I am just pointing out that the rule is a good idea and will cover you most of the time.

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Wendell Reich
Hunter's Quest International

I do not use Monolithics, or X-bullets in a double rifle. In every sense of the word they are both MONOLITHICS, as far as the bore of your rifle are concerned! The X-bullets don't shoot in any of my rifles anyway, so to me, it doesn't matter. I, however, do use Barnes Monolithics in bolt rifles, and I work up loads so they shoot the same as my softs. The Monolithic only is used after a good boiler room hit with a quality soft point, and many times are up the old poop shute. The usual drill is, a soft in the heart/lung area, a solid in the shoulder as he turns, and two more solids up the shute as he leaves. This is with a double rifle. With a bolt rifle the first two are a little different, in that the second shot is usually later, and goes in angleing across the heart/lung area from back to off side shoulder, instead of through both shoulders.

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

One of the serious PHs that I spoke with argued that a solid was really only a strong argument in the .375 H&H and he preferred his clients who used that rifle to load solids. In most of the sitautions that I have seen buffalo shot there is no clear path behind the animal nor any reasonable hope for one. In fact the best situation seems to be a clear path in front with the animal standing fairly still. I have had abullet exit in a herd situation and kill another that I could not see so I am hypersensitive to this problem (perhaps paranoid is the word!).

Good discussion! Any details on your experience of how often different bullets have exited from certain angles?

One argument that I have heard before for the follow up solid is that the beast will be running away and you'll have to shoot lengthwise to do any real damage (assuming any shot presents itself).

quote:

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Originally posted by Peter:
Now we get to the real question (I think):
What is the ideal shot assuming broadside conditions?
I would tend to favor a solid through the shoulders to anchor the Buff, and then follow up with the heart shot whereas I think you guys favor the heart/lung shot first.
Thanks, Peter.

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Peter,
That's a good plan in theory, but it is not that easy in practice. Unless both shoulders are broken in two pieces, it will slow a buffalo little. If you will look at a broadside of a cape Buffalo you will see there is a tip on the "ELBOW" of his foreleg, that is about 5" above the brisket. Here the bones of the shoulder take a deffinet turn 70 degree angle toward the buff's head, to the point of the shoulder, then the scapula turns back at about a 30 degree angle back toward the buff's mid back. This forms what some call "THE DEADLY TRIANGLE" that the center of is about 4" above the elbow in line with the lower foreleg, or just forward. This is the shot with your soft point. There is no bone in this triangle bigger than a rib, but low in this triangle you will clip the heart, forward toward the point of the shoulder, you will clip the spine. if your shot is centered in the triangle, but a little back, it will pop both lungs. My favorite placement in the triangle is 3" forward of the ELBOW TIP, and 3" above that elbow tip. The problem with a solid for this first shot is, if you happen to miss all the bone, the solid does far less damage to the electric fuse box, and pushes the trigger that opens the adrenelin spout! Then the practice of dumping cartridges in and empties out of your rifle will begin. killing him with the first shot, and Always break bone with you second shot,if he is unaware of his own death ! Hence the soft,followed by as many solids as you can muster.

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

I did however never expect the heart of a lion to be where it is according to that book. Learn something new everyday my Grandad used to say. Any way I am glad I bought the book and will soak up the information with gladness.

If you will notice the grass strands between you and the buffalos right front leg, at the top of that grass is the ELBOW, or first joint above the knee. Right there the upper leg bone heads forward toward the buffalo's head for about 10", or 12". the next joint is where the scapula connects to the upper leg bone, and reverses dirrection, back toward the middle of the buffalo's back. So if you draw an imageonary line up the back of the buffalo's lower leg streight UP to about 2/3 the way up the chest it meets the scapula, the bones of the upper leg forming a triangle with your imageonary line. The red dot in approximetly in the lower middle of this triangle! If your shot is high in that dot, you will clip the spine, as there is a dip in the spine there. If your shot is low in the dot, you will take out the heart, and part of the lungs, If your shot is in the front edge of that dot, you will still hit the heart, and maybe, if high hit part of the spine.

The Bull in the picture isn't standing exactly broadside but angled slightly, still anyplace in that triangle a quality soft point will shute his breathing, and blood supply down!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 03-14-2002).]

When I'm chasing bachlor bulls, I use the GS FN solid but I have had good results with the Woodleigh solid and the Hornady...I prefer the solid for Buff and particularly the GS FN....

The solid isn't as immediately effective as a soft, but it certainly is much more sure to get the job done....I believe any soft will fail on ocassions and I have either seen or known of most of them failing over the years.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I'm just saying sometimes the buff are together so one must cope with herd hunting...

Also on cull hunts you are always herd shooting. In the low veld Buff tend to stay together more so than in say Tanzanias Selous. On other ocassions you will track the bachlors into a herd...On other ocassions the bachlors are just on the outskirts of the herd and if they get a little suspecious of your presence they will run into the middle of the herd...These are some of the reasons that come to mind off the top of my head from experiences I have had..

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

The bull measured 41" with a hard boss and he was in the herd.

My first shot (from approx. 30 to 40 yards) was with the Swift A-Frame into the boiler room. This slowed the bull down and as the herd took off at a run, they quickly passed him as he was slowing down considerably. We ran parallel to the running herd and once it was clear, I put a Barnes solid through the bolier room. Now the bull really slowed down and I put another Barnes solid through both shoulders. That stopped the bull completely but he was still standing on all fours. I placed another Barnes solid through both shoulders again (less than two inches from the previous shoulder shot) and the bull dropped to the ground.

All of the Barnes solids went completely through and there were three .375 inch holes on the other side. I'm pretty confident that if another buffalo were behind my bull when I shot the solids, I would have spent another $2,000.00 on a second trophy fee. I'm sure the PH would not of been too happy and we would have had a fun time explaining it to the government game scout as well.

Tim