Martin Pieters Safaris - A Troubling Experience

17 January 2017, 23:03

quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
Then I have a whole list of other things.

Did you bring up these issues with CMS prior or bring them to light in your hunt reports? And if not...why not? I suspect I know the answer but I'm trying to be polite to you.

I always tried to focus on the positive points about my hunts but sometime the negatives accumulated and that is when I draw the line.
CMS is not for me any more.

17 January 2017, 23:05

Bwana Bunduki

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Shootaway- please clarify why you would not hunt with us after your last hunt. We have given you several excellent hunts , entertained some somewhat interesting behavior on your behalf to say the least and always given you 100% as we do for every client! Here is your chance George!!!

Too many asshole clients for one.

George, you've got too many mirrors in your home. There's really only one of you.

Down goes Frazier,,,,Down goes Frazier.....

17 January 2017, 23:20

Wesheltonj

quote:
Caveat Emptor

I agree, however its clear the outfitter did not have the merchandise (the Hunt) which can lead to both civil and criminal problems. Was this hunt sold in the USA? If so, I would think Mr. Peters might want to settle rather quickly and put this behind him.

So as to low post counts centered around show time, that just BS. Does not matter of someone's post count here is 1 or a million.

17 January 2017, 23:22

jaegerfrank

I appreciate the contribution by the TS. Posts like this -especially done in such a balanced way- are big help in booking hunts. To link that to the shows seems extremely remote to me.

17 January 2017, 23:25

Steve Ahrenberg

I think I made my point about the "defenders." This thread isn't even about CMS, I simply used them as my example.

The defenders are already busy defending. Granted, its just George but heck.

I would hunt with CMS in a heartbeat. Just haven't had that destination in mind as yet.

17 January 2017, 23:28

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
Then I have a whole list of other things.

Did you bring up these issues with CMS prior or bring them to light in your hunt reports? And if not...why not? I suspect I know the answer but I'm trying to be polite to you.

I always tried to focus on the positive points about my hunts but sometime the negatives accumulated and that is when I draw the line.
CMS is not for me any more.

Truth is that there are clients that outfitters would be well advised to steer clear of in the first place . . . all the better if the client is doing the steering for them.

17 January 2017, 23:34

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by Wesheltonj:
Does not matter of someone's post count here is 1 or a million.

Sorry, that is just an asinine statement. Like suggesting that the years someone has been in business is irrelevant, or how long a doctor has practiced medicine does not matter, or how long you have known someone trying to sell you something is unimportant . . . credibility and reputation are key considerations we use daily to decide what to believe and not believe . . . well perhaps all except the low information voters I guess.

17 January 2017, 23:44

bwanamrm

I have had three excellent hunts with Martin. All in the Omay, two in the North, one in the South. I have shot some excellent trophies and some average ones. Missed a helluva opportunity at a lion and returned to hunt for one unsuccessfully. But even so, I have had good experiences as a whole with Martin and his crew.

As mjines said, if I were going to hunt Namibia, as much as I like Martin, I would use a booking agent or book directly with the Namibian operator. I never understand booking a Zim hunt with South Africans or a Nambian hunt with Zimbos...

The only caveat is western Africa and Tanzania where out-of-country PH's seem to be the norm due to the lack of professionals or a defined hunting industry in some of those countries.

17 January 2017, 23:51

crbutler

A new poster has some more burden of proof to meet as no one knows him, and there have been more than a few strange ones in the past.

In this case, the OP did a pretty good job of showing he has some legitimate issues here.

The sad part is that his hunt required him to attempt to get issues resolved, and while I can appreciate that MP has a business to run and no free time during show season, it seems common with these deals that go south that no one talks with the client and they feel that they have no recourse or that they are being ignored.

Can't say that I would not feel like retribution was in order if that happened to me... 3 months is more than enough time to get an idea where the issue is going, in my opinion.

18 January 2017, 00:06

Todd Williams

quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
A new poster has some more burden of proof to meet as no one knows him, and there have been more than a few strange ones in the past.

In this case, the OP did a pretty good job of showing he has some legitimate issues here.

The sad part is that his hunt required him to attempt to get issues resolved, and while I can appreciate that MP has a business to run and no free time during show season, it seems common with these deals that go south that no one talks with the client and they feel that they have no recourse or that they are being ignored.

Can't say that I would not feel like retribution was in order if that happened to me... 3 months is more than enough time to get an idea where the issue is going, in my opinion.

Very succinctly said.

18 January 2017, 00:21

Duckear

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

So there ARE forum favorites?

We are in agreement here. No doubt there are.

18 January 2017, 00:32

Bwana Bunduki

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
A new poster has some more burden of proof to meet as no one knows him, and there have been more than a few strange ones in the past.

In this case, the OP did a pretty good job of showing he has some legitimate issues here.

The sad part is that his hunt required him to attempt to get issues resolved, and while I can appreciate that MP has a business to run and no free time during show season, it seems common with these deals that go south that no one talks with the client and they feel that they have no recourse or that they are being ignored.

Can't say that I would not feel like retribution was in order if that happened to me... 3 months is more than enough time to get an idea where the issue is going, in my opinion.

Very succinctly said.

Why do you and Mr. Jines always scare George off?

Jeff

18 January 2017, 00:34

470Evans

quote
Meaning; Martin Pieters is to be avoided?

For me, yes.

Based on my reading of the situation as described by the OP and Martin I would pass on Martin's services for my future hunts. Time and $ are too precious to take a chance on hunting with someone that doesn't do all they could of to fix a situation.

When an outfitter sells a hunt they are responsible for delivering what they sold.

One of the best attributes of this site are all the hunt reports, good and bad from all who post. The ability to draw on the experiences of all who post here is invaluable.

There have been many reports over the years that have helped me avoid certain outfitters.

18 January 2017, 00:44

jdollar

quote:
Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
A new poster has some more burden of proof to meet as no one knows him, and there have been more than a few strange ones in the past.

In this case, the OP did a pretty good job of showing he has some legitimate issues here.

The sad part is that his hunt required him to attempt to get issues resolved, and while I can appreciate that MP has a business to run and no free time during show season, it seems common with these deals that go south that no one talks with the client and they feel that they have no recourse or that they are being ignored.

Can't say that I would not feel like retribution was in order if that happened to me... 3 months is more than enough time to get an idea where the issue is going, in my opinion.

Very succinctly said.

Why do you and Mr. Jines always scare George off?

Jeff

If only it was permanent. Oh well, hope springs eternal

18 January 2017, 00:54

Chris Drazan

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Wesheltonj:
Does not matter of someone's post count here is 1 or a million.

Sorry, that is just an asinine statement. Like suggesting that the years someone has been in business is irrelevant, or how long a doctor has practiced medicine does not matter, or how long you have known someone trying to sell you something is unimportant . . . credibility and reputation are key considerations we use daily to decide what to believe and not believe . . . well perhaps all except the low information voters I guess.

Mike

I'm not I sure I understand your logic, Mike. What does the number of posts have to do with the experience I have hunting or the issue I had with the hunt? For example, you have 12,000 + posts but someone else may have 15,000 posts. Does that imply your trustworthiness and credibility is somehow less than theirs? That somehow, you have a higher burden of proof with respect to your claims? I could rack up a bunch of posts quickly. So what - in your mind - is the threshold? I suspect it's arbitrary.

I've been a member since 2104 and viewing long before that.

18 January 2017, 01:03

Jason P

quote:
When an outfitter sells a hunt they are responsible for delivering what they sold

The best comment of the entire thread.

Bad paperwork- Outfitters fault
Bad food- Outfitters fault
Bad Dip and Pack- Outfitters fault
Over charged- Outfitters fault

Too many times, blame is deferred.

18 January 2017, 01:04

Chris Drazan

It seems I only have to more posts to be "one of us"

18 January 2017, 01:05

Chris Drazan

Now only one more . . .

18 January 2017, 01:06

Chris Drazan

And voila, I am now 'one of us'. I hope everyone now can trust my intent.

18 January 2017, 01:12

royal27

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Drazan:
Now only one more . . .

Your posts are valid now, but mine aren't, so don't trust me.

18 January 2017, 01:19

Chris Drazan

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Drazan:
Now only one more . . .

You're post are valid now, but mine aren't, so don't trust me.

Well, I DO have more than twice as many as you, so you can understand my concern about your honesty and virtue.

18 January 2017, 01:23

royal27

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Drazan:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Drazan:
Now only one more . . .

You're post are valid now, but mine aren't, so don't trust me.

Well, I DO have more than twice as many as you, so you can understand my concern about your honesty and virtue.

I guess.... Thought ten was the arbitrary cutoff... I see I was mistaken.

18 January 2017, 01:52

SFRanger7GP

Thank you Chris for sharing your experience. You have come across as a gentleman. I am old fashioned in that I believe a man should be as good as his word in good times and bad. Things go wrong, admit it and sort it out for the better. Whether a person chooses to openly post experiences or only share them by PM. I am most appreciative. We all work hard for our money and we all enter a hunt with a certain level of (blind) trust. How high of a risk we accept is a result of our knowledge and experience. Posts such as yours assist with that decision.

In any customer service business (and hunting is definitely one), mistakes happen. How you handle it shows who you are. Problems and mistakes are best handled with honest, open and immediate conversation. No matter how uncomfortable it makes both parties feel. Time and avoidance will only make the problem worse. And as one of my mentors told me, when you have the power (meaning you are right), you have the power to be nice.

Safe travels..........LL

18 January 2017, 01:59

Chris Drazan

SFRanger,

Thank you for the compliment. Safe travels to you as well.

Chris

18 January 2017, 01:59

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Drazan:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Wesheltonj:
Does not matter of someone's post count here is 1 or a million.

Sorry, that is just an asinine statement. Like suggesting that the years someone has been in business is irrelevant, or how long a doctor has practiced medicine does not matter, or how long you have known someone trying to sell you something is unimportant . . . credibility and reputation are key considerations we use daily to decide what to believe and not believe . . . well perhaps all except the low information voters I guess.

Mike

I'm not I sure I understand your logic, Mike. What does the number of posts have to do with the experience I have hunting or the issue I had with the hunt? For example, you have 12,000 + posts but someone else may have 15,000 posts. Does that imply your trustworthiness and credibility is somehow less than theirs? That somehow, you have a higher burden of proof with respect to your claims? I could rack up a bunch of posts quickly. So what - in your mind - is the threshold? I suspect it's arbitrary.

I've been a member since 2104 and viewing long before that.

Not really that hard to understand candidly. The number of posts is relevant in terms of the content of those posts establishing an understanding of who the person is, what his background is, what his level of experience is, relationships that the person has with other members, etc. Many people will not buy on line from someone with a handful of posts or limited feedback. Why? Because the person has not established a track record sufficient for people to trust them to be legitimate. At this point here is what we know about you, you purport to be a person named Chris Drazan, you have 27 Posts more than half of which are on this thread, you purport to be from Tennessee, based on Martin's post we know you did hunt with him . . . that's about it. Do I have reason to believe any of that is not true, not in the least. Would I give you loan? Not hardly. The number of posts is just a tool to use to help gauge credibility. If others want to take as gospel what someone says in their first on line post, often done under a pseudonym, God bless them. Unless I personally know the person, I think I will let them establish a bit of a track record first.

18 January 2017, 02:07

Heym 450/400

quote:
Would I give you loan

I have 5k post...can I have some money or perhaps a fine rifle or two?

I'll be honest...I probably won't pay you back but I promise to use the money for safari.

18 January 2017, 02:11

cal pappas

Mike:
I have a rep. of honesty here and years of posts under my belt. So why the hasrhness at my last two threads of contracts and my elk hunt? Is it with me, as it is here, just devil's advocate?
I've reviewed your comments on my threads and I seem to meet your criteria. (?)
Not to offend, just curious.
Cal
PS. The OP here has many valid complaints. It seems when ever there is a question or something does not go as planned, the almighty dollar rules and the client takes it in the shorts. IMHO the client should have been informed from day one and offered a refund, or a partial refund for a 2x1, etc. At least he should have been given the choice and Martin should have taken it in the shorts as he set up the deal, not the innocent client. Maybe this is a good reason to use an agent as a middle man to keep the funds here until the hunt is complete. On the other hand if the client signs his rights away in a contract he as no recourse anyway. Such as the thread on the sheep hunt that has been going on here for years. The PH, outfitter, agent, et.al. will get their cut and the client seems to be last--both with an agent or without an agent.

_______________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
______________________________

18 January 2017, 02:12

Chris Drazan

quote:
Not really that hard to understand candidly. The number of posts is relevant in terms of establishing an understanding of who the person is, what his background is, what his level of experience is, relationships that the person has with other members, etc. Many people will not buy on line from someone with a handful of posts or limited feedback. Why? Because the person has not established a track record sufficient for people to trust them to be legitimate. At this point here is what we know about you, you purport to be a person named Chris Drazan, you have 27 Posts more than half of which are on this thread, you purport to be from Tennessee, based on Martin's post we know you did hunt with him . . . that's about it. Do I have reason to believe any of that is not true, not in the least. Would I give you loan? Not hardly. The number of posts is just a tool to use to help gauge credibility. If others want to take as gospel what someone says in their first on line post, often done under a pseudonym, God bless them. Unless I personally know the person, I think I will let them establish a bit of a track record first.

Mike

But again, you haven't answered my question: what is an acceptable number of posts to establish credibility. Give me a number - and the precise nature of the content - so that people new to the forum with have a credibility target to strive for. For you, an average of ~3.5 posts per day over 10 years suggest more about hobbies and free time (not a bad thing) than it does credibility. I don't know you but would read your feedback on a hunt as data and establish a point-of-view based on the veracity of the claim and the data without even looking at your post count. I would use it as ONE data point if I were making a decision on a hunt.

But enough of this, we'll agree to disagree.

Best,

Chris

18 January 2017, 02:20

Steve Ahrenberg

quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
Mike:
I have a rep. of honesty here and years of posts under my belt. So why the hasrhness at my last two threads of contracts and my elk hunt? Is it with me, as it is here, just devil's advocate?
I've reviewed your comments on my threads and I seem to meet your criteria. (?)
Not to offend, just curious.
Cal
PS. The OP here has many valid complaints. It seems when ever there is a question or something does not go as planned, the almighty dollar rules and the client takes it in the shorts. IMHO the client should have been informed from day one and offered a refund, or a partial refund for a 2x1, etc. At least he should have been given the choice and Martin should have taken it in the shorts as he set up the deal, not the innocent client. Maybe this is a good reason to use an agent as a middle man to keep the funds here until the hunt is complete. On the other hand if the client signs his rights away in a contract he as no recourse anyway. Such as the thread on the sheep hunt that has been going on here for years. The PH, outfitter, agent, et.al. will get their cut and the client seems to be last--both with an agent or without an agent.

Because it goes back to forum favorites or a protected class, just like I said.

Some can do no wrong.

18 January 2017, 02:25

Steve Ahrenberg

I think one other thing here that bears some consideration. Many of us here, are business professionals. Many of us also have written hundreds if not thousands of business letters, communications or solicitations.

We are dealing with Professional Hunters or outfitters who make their livings in the African bush, so we can go have a fun and exciting shooting vacation. I think expecting a professional to be proficient both in the bush and in the boardroom, is a bit much.

I'm NOT saying their clods, simply give them a break when it comes to the intricacies of a professionally worded letter or response.

What say you, counselor?

18 January 2017, 02:25

Heym 450/400

quote:
Because it goes back to forum favorites or a protected class, just like I said

Why didn't someone PM me that MJines is "protected class" before I gave him all kinds of grief in the ARPF. Jeez..I was playing with fire and never realized it. I'm lucky I came out alive

18 January 2017, 02:30

Opus1

I tried to tell you...

18 January 2017, 02:33

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
Mike:
I have a rep. of honesty here and years of posts under my belt. So why the hasrhness at my last two threads of contracts and my elk hunt? Is it with me, as it is here, just devil's advocate?
I've reviewed your comments on my threads and I seem to meet your criteria. (?)
Not to offend, just curious.
Cal
PS. The OP here has many valid complaints. It seems when ever there is a question or something does not go as planned, the almighty dollar rules and the client takes it in the shorts. IMHO the client should have been informed from day one and offered a refund, or a partial refund for a 2x1, etc. At least he should have been given the choice and Martin should have taken it in the shorts as he set up the deal, not the innocent client. Maybe this is a good reason to use an agent as a middle man to keep the funds here until the hunt is complete. On the other hand if the client signs his rights away in a contract he as no recourse anyway. Such as the thread on the sheep hunt that has been going on here for years. The PH, outfitter, agent, et.al. will get their cut and the client seems to be last--both with an agent or without an agent.

Because it goes back to forum favorites or a protected class, just like I said.

Some can do no wrong.

That would actually be bullshit. The contract thread was about an agent that I have never even met and the elk hunt thread was about an outfitter I have never even heard of. I think it has more to do with a difference in style and approach. I have always been one to address a business issue directly with the person/group that is the source of the issue in my mind as opposed to resorting to the Internet as a source of retribution, shame, leverage, etc. Others take the latter tack. Since they choose to bring their issues to the Internet intelligentsia for input, I am happy to provide my perspective. Your mileage may vary.

18 January 2017, 02:34

Steve Ahrenberg

quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
quote:
Because it goes back to forum favorites or a protected class, just like I said

Why didn't someone PM me that MJines is "protected class" before I gave him all kinds of grief in the ARPF. Jeez..I was playing with fire and never realized it. I'm lucky I came out alive

Funny.

the rules in the ARPF are simple enough. . .There are none.

I was referring to Cal's Elk hunting contract thread. He was dealing with a forum favorite, whom is protected and defended, always.

18 January 2017, 02:36

Steve Ahrenberg

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
Mike:
I have a rep. of honesty here and years of posts under my belt. So why the hasrhness at my last two threads of contracts and my elk hunt? Is it with me, as it is here, just devil's advocate?
I've reviewed your comments on my threads and I seem to meet your criteria. (?)
Not to offend, just curious.
Cal
PS. The OP here has many valid complaints. It seems when ever there is a question or something does not go as planned, the almighty dollar rules and the client takes it in the shorts. IMHO the client should have been informed from day one and offered a refund, or a partial refund for a 2x1, etc. At least he should have been given the choice and Martin should have taken it in the shorts as he set up the deal, not the innocent client. Maybe this is a good reason to use an agent as a middle man to keep the funds here until the hunt is complete. On the other hand if the client signs his rights away in a contract he as no recourse anyway. Such as the thread on the sheep hunt that has been going on here for years. The PH, outfitter, agent, et.al. will get their cut and the client seems to be last--both with an agent or without an agent.

Because it goes back to forum favorites or a protected class, just like I said.

Some can do no wrong.

That would actually be bullshit. The contract thread was about an agent that I have never even met and the elk hunt thread was about an outfitter I have never even heard of. I think it has more to do with a difference in style and approach. I have always been one to address a business issue directly with the person/group that is the source of the issue in my mind as opposed to resorting the Internet as a source of retribution, shame, leverage, etc. Others take the latter tack. Since they choose to bring their issues to the Internet intelligentsia for input, I am happy to provide my perspective. Your mileage may vary.

On the revenge, retribution part I wholly agree.

18 January 2017, 02:48

Jefffive

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:

I will not hunt with them again after my last hunt.

Probably just me but that may be the best reason I've ever seen to hunt with CMS...

18 January 2017, 03:34

shootaway

Bravo to Chris for posting this.If there were more like him who came out with their negative experiences we would all have a better time on our african safaris.I might just one day post a list of all the things I didn't like about my hunts.But I guess I better wait until I have more posts and there is no show near, before I get accused of wanting retribution.

18 January 2017, 03:40

Heym 450/400

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
Bravo to Chris for posting this.If there were more like him who came out with their negative experiences we would all have a better time on our african safaris.I might just one day post a list of all the things I didn't like about my hunts.But I guess I better wait until I have more posts and there is no show near before I get accused of wanting retribution.

The difference is he layed out specific details of his grievance...you took a cheap shot at CMS who we know ..by your own hunt report...you had a good hunt with.

18 January 2017, 03:44

cal pappas

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
Bravo to Chris for posting this.If there were more like him who came out with their negative experiences we would all have a better time on our african safaris.I might just one day post a list of all the things I didn't like about my hunts.But I guess I better wait until I have more posts and there is no show near, before I get accused of wanting retribution.

George:
I, for one, would like to see your hunt reports, both positive and negative. I don't know any details about your hunts. I do know what you like and do not the world of double rifles (I know my doubles are pure garbage thanks to you). But, I would welcome your writings about your hunts.
Cal