I'm just asking questions for fun here. I'm not going to Africa anytime soon if ever.

I've read the wars about whether a .375 h&h is good enough for elephant.
It kind of reminds me of the 45 vs 9mm discussions. I am pretty sure everybody would feel comfortable with a .45 for personal defense.

So what is/are the good enough calibers for elephant,including wounded elephant and elephants in the thick stuff? Is it the same for cape buffalo?
Is .458 win mag on the list?

.458 Win is n the list as are any of the various 40's, I.E. .416 Rem, Rigby. .404 Jeff etc. As are of course any of the adequate .458's starting with the .458 Win and moving up. Then of course we have the any of the big N.E rounds and finally the .50's and up.

A .375 H&H is "adequate" under any and all situations with proper bullets and a proper riflemen at the controls.

quote:

A .375 H&H is "adequate" under any and all situations with proper bullets and a proper riflemen at the controls.

This is very true
.416 and up for Elephant
.375 for buffalo with proper bullets and shot placement

if, IF, everything is optimal, the 375 is great. Generally speaking, however, it is prudent to avoid "minimums" in life. Else we could all get by driving Yugos.

The larger bores seem to be more accurate at 2000+fps loadings with cast bullets, a sort-of "poor man's solid" if you will. I would suggest a 416 Rigby, my CZ 416 will shoot the RCBS 350gr GC RFN over 2200fps and group under 2" at 100 yards for a magazine full.

JMHO,

Rich
Buff Killer

After killing Ele on an early safari with a .375 I came home and immediately bought a .416Rem for Buff and Ele. I now carry a .458Lott. When things go wrong, as they frequently do in Africa, having the "minimum" may not suffice. Go on enough safari and you will eventually have a problem that will be sorted out better with a bigger gun.

I have shot many elephants, and many buffalo, all with a 375.

Never felt I needed anything bigger.

In fact, I used a 416 Weatherby and a 416 Rigby on other safaris, and went back to the 375 because I could not see advantage of using the larger calibers.

I choose 458 Lott.

Oscar.

Well, my 2 elephants met their demise with my 458wm, no muss, no fuss

A 500 AHR (modified Jeffrey) does a nice job every time.

Dak

gentlemen anyone who knows me will tell you I am not an elephant hunter, however, I have seen several taken in tight sittuations, and my opinion is, the 375 H&H with a proper bullet, stuck in the right place, at around 2500 fps, will surly kill any elephant ever dropped by his mama!

That being said, IMO also, the 375H&H is legal minimum,in most places in Africa, but that certainly, again IMO, doesn't make it the best choice for hunting elephant. That goes for most of the .400 cals as well. I beleive the best for ele is the biggest chambering you can handle properly, and My choice for hunting ele, if I were going to hunt them exclusively, would be a 500NE double rifle, no others need apply!

Would I hunt buffalo, and elephant with a 375 H&H rifle, absolutely! Would it be my first choice, absolutely not! It would not be one of the rimless .416s either, but I'd love a 450/400NE 3" double for that persuit, but the 500NE would be much better.

This post may sound like wishy-washy changing horses in mid stream, but it really isn't. It is simply that I would hunt Elephant, and buffalo with the legal minimum happily, if that is all I had when the privilage came my way. I would not reccomend any minimum to someone I did not know of his shooting skill well, and his ability to stand his ground in the face of a big "stomp & gore". For that, my advice would be start at .450s, and up, and learn to shoot it for a year before going into the weeds with either the ele, or Buff!

What Mac said ....... I think his post says it all. As for me, & my very limited experience - only two buffalo - I picked the .458 Lott, & would again in a bolt rifle. For a double, again, what Mac said.

If you are going on your one and only safari, go with the 375H&H.

As far as needing more rifle, much depends on where and how and how much you hunt. If you wish to stand off at 50, or even 30 yds, in relatively clear country for your one and only bull, less rifle is needed. If you want to get close and especially get close in thick bush repeatedly, you will want and eventually need more rifle. Most especially if you choose to iclude cow eles as well as bull eles.

Personally, I don't see the point in standing off and shooting elephants, but I would do so for a perticularly fine set of ivory.

A 458wm makes a very excellent elephant rifle with good hand loads or custom loaded factory ammo.

JPK

A generalisation...but on average, clients who arrive carrying a well used ,375 kill their own game. Many of those who arrive carring something bigger need some extra lead from the PH to help things along.

Shot placement with good ammo always beats power! If you can manage a .404 or .416 - by all means bring one! If you are an avid handloader, get a .458 - load it with cheep bullets at 1800fps for deer and hog in the USA and get to know the rifle as your friend - the extra recoil from a 500grn at 2100fps will not be noticed in the excitement of Africa and you will be well versed with your rifle....

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
A generalisation...but on average, clients who arrive carrying a well used ,375 kill their own game. Many of those who arrive carring something bigger need some extra lead from the PH to help things along.

Shot placement with good ammo always beats power! If you can manage a .404 or .416 - by all means bring one! If you are an avid handloader, get a .458 - load it with cheep bullets at 1800fps for deer and hog in the USA and get to know the rifle as your friend - the extra recoil from a 500grn at 2100fps will not be noticed in the excitement of Africa and you will be well versed with your rifle....

So are you still in Zim or some far away exotic location, like New Jersey or Caracas?

If I was to do it over again, I would just use a 375 H&H on buff, again, and just shoot them in the right place, again.

You can get it done with a 375 on elephant but I don't consider it respectful. But all it takes to be an elephant shooter is money.

IMHO, the .416 Rigby equals hammer time. The extra penetration is always a good thing.
LDK

Goin for buff and PG in July. Taking one rifle, my .375. That did it before. Should do it again.

.416 Rigby works for all two. Prima

Seloushunter

I would want at least a .22 Mag. Preferably in a double rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
I would want at least a .22 Mag. Preferably in a double rifle.

The .22 Hornet's sexier...

quote:

Originally posted by Will:.

But all it takes to be an elephant shooter is money.

This is true. But if you convert this to elephant hunting, where you track for hours and hours and miles on miles on end, and then push the approach until the elephant turns on you, it becomes a test of perseverance, endurance, persistance and courage.

Even then, some eles will come easy, some difficult in the extreme. That is hunting.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
A generalisation...but on average, clients who arrive carrying a well used ,375 kill their own game. Many of those who arrive carring something bigger need some extra lead from the PH to help things along.

Shot placement with good ammo always beats power! If you can manage a .404 or .416 - by all means bring one! If you are an avid handloader, get a .458 - load it with cheep bullets at 1800fps for deer and hog in the USA and get to know the rifle as your friend - the extra recoil from a 500grn at 2100fps will not be noticed in the excitement of Africa and you will be well versed with your rifle....

This generalization might fit the general, typical first timer client. Might even fit the first timer AR member. Only.

JPK

Once I've been told by a woman: We don't need a big one - we need a good one. I think it is relevant to 375H&H. Shot placement and penetration that what's count!

quote:

Originally posted by aholz:
Once I've been told by a woman: We don't need a big one - we need a good one. I think it is relevant to 375H&H. Shot placement and penetration that what's count!

Yes, when that is possible (shot placement - penetration should be a given.) But it isn't always possible.

Anyone who pretends different hasn't done enough elephant hunting!

JPK

Why just an "OK" calibre? Why not a "Super Great" calibre? Don't settle for mediocracy Frank!

Ganyana, as you mentoined my plan is to shoot my 500 Jeffery with mild loads (535g at 2100 fps) for the local game (deer, elk, black bear) and get very comfortable with it. I plan to shoot either 570g Barnes TSXs/solids or 600g Woodleigh PPs/solids at 2150 fps for dangerous game which is still a few years out.

Regards,

Chuck

Thanks for the notice of fun.

1. Thick stuff: .416 and bigger. Bigger is better. I use a .500 Schuler.

2. Yes.

3. Yes, the .458 Winchester Magnum is at the top of the list. Probably killed more dangerous game than all other calibers combined.

Let me start off by saying that I know nothing about African hunting... NOTHING. The only thing I know is that Saeed, our host, has shot hundreds of buffalo's in Africa, and many elephants with his .375 cal version. Watching his videos with envy, I did notice one thing. Shot placement!!! He shot animals in thick stuff, he shot them in open country, but when he shot them, he was sure to hit the target, and, in the right spot. Something is obvious here. Saeed is an expert shot, I think it runs in the family The only suggestion I am going to make is the following. If you have time on your hands, and you have never seen Saeed's videos, download them and look at every single one of them. Afterwards, make an opinion for yourself. My two cents worth.

Maurice

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
A generalisation...but on average, clients who arrive carrying a well used ,375 kill their own game. Many of those who arrive carring something bigger need some extra lead from the PH to help things along.

Shot placement with good ammo always beats power! If you can manage a .404 or .416 - by all means bring one! If you are an avid handloader, get a .458 - load it with cheep bullets at 1800fps for deer and hog in the USA and get to know the rifle as your friend - the extra recoil from a 500grn at 2100fps will not be noticed in the excitement of Africa and you will be well versed with your rifle....

This generalization might fit the general, typical first timer client. Might even fit the first timer AR member. Only.

JPK

Seems to fit me down to a T

And I ain't first timer in Africa by a long shot

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:

3. Yes, the .458 Winchester Magnum is at the top of the list. Probably killed more dangerous game than all other calibers combined.

Because of the lack of ammo for the NE rounds for a long time the 458 Win Mag was the only show in town so to speak. Because of that fact the 458WM got a lot of use,and is the reason it is at the top of the list. Most people in Africa do not grab the next shiny kid on the block as soon as it hits the market, like Amreicans do. The lead time the 375H&H had on the 458 is a real factor here. Because of that lead time, the statment above,in bold, I think is not true!

It is my opinion that the 375 H&H magnum holds that record, hands down. Constant use on dangerous game since 1912. I'd say the 375 H&H probably killed more dangerous game between 1912, and 1954, when the 458WM was introduced, than the 458 has in it's whole life span.

Even after the 458 came out, more of the 375 H&H rifles were still in the hands of most people in Africa, and those who ventured to Africa than 458 WM rifles.

None of this has any meaning on the effectiveness of the 458 WM, but it just has not been in the field long enough to overcome a 42 year lead owned by the old 3 six bits!

Lets put it in terms I can relate to. White tail.
.22 mag. It will kill deer. Everybody in the hills knows it will. The shot needs to be right and the shooter needs to be good. It is not a cartridge for less than perfect conditions.

270 win. This is a deer killing cartridge. Short, far, doesn't matter. Fast, flat, accurate, properly powerful. It will dig deep at a bad angle and get the job done. Nobody would have any concerns at all of being under gunned with a 270 on the East coast white tail.Probably the most popular dedicated deer caliber on the east coast. I don't know about the rest of the country.

338 win mag. For what? White tail aren't that big. Better than the .22 mag, but not better than the .270. Unnecessary weight, recoil,cost, and penetration. This is like hunting elephant with a Barrett .50 cal.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Why just an "OK" calibre? Why not a "Super Great" calibre? Don't settle for mediocracy Frank!

Just pulling your leg.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
A generalisation...but on average, clients who arrive carrying a well used ,375 kill their own game. Many of those who arrive carring something bigger need some extra lead from the PH to help things along.

Shot placement with good ammo always beats power! If you can manage a .404 or .416 - by all means bring one! If you are an avid handloader, get a .458 - load it with cheep bullets at 1800fps for deer and hog in the USA and get to know the rifle as your friend - the extra recoil from a 500grn at 2100fps will not be noticed in the excitement of Africa and you will be well versed with your rifle....

This generalization might fit the general, typical first timer client. Might even fit the first timer AR member. Only.

JPK

Seems to fit me down to a T

And I ain't first timer in Africa by a long shot

Saeed,

By your comment, I am to suppose that you conceed that you cannot shoot more rifle than a 375?

Ganyana: "Many of those who arrive carring something bigger need some extra lead from the PH to help things along."

JPK

JPK,

I probably shoot more big bore rifles than a lot of hunters goinh to Africa.

And if I honestly thought that a bigger caliber would suit my hunting any better, I would have used one.

In all my hunts, at no time have felt that I was undergunned with a 375.

And I think what Ganyana is saying, which I have heard from many other PHs, is that the majority of people going on safari are better served by using a caliber they can actually shoot well.

This is no reflection on you, or anyone else who can handle larger calibers, and shoot them well.

Every year I go hunting, I hear horror stories of clients who turn up with brand new large bore rifles, and cannot seem to hit anything with them.

This reminds me of the client who bought a super accurate rifle, custom made, wich shot groups so small they can hardly be measured.

He apparently was on a 7 day plains game hunt, and brought only one box of ammo for his rifle.

He only wanted to shoot 6 animals.

On his first day out, he wounded a warthog, and fired an additional 8 shots to kill it.

Both buffalo and elephants are easily killed by smaller calibers than a 375.

But, because it is the minimum required, and as it does the job very well, I recommend it, and I use it.

Anyone going on safari needs to practice - with whatever rifle he chooses to take along - until he is regularly and reliably good with it.

Not exactly revolutionary advice, but far too many don't follow it.

That's why a PH can't assume that his client will be able to shoot and hit his target - and why most recommend rifles on the lighter or minimum end of the spectrum.

Dare I suggest a .45/70?

ROFL!

I own a 375 H + H, 458wm and a 470 capstick -- any of which I would be comfortable with hunting Buffalo or Elephant. Of the 3, by far the most have been fired in the 458. I use a 385 grain gas check at 1800fps for north american hunting and am very comfortable with the gun. By the way, using your heavy for most everything also gets you in shape to carry it all the time.

With modern powders the 458 win mag IMO is the best dangerous game caliber out there and with bullet selection you can plink with it all year long and not have to bust the piggy bank. As far as ele and the 375 it will get the job done with a WELL placed shot but it's not what I would take to shoot ele.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
JPK,

I probably shoot more big bore rifles than a lot of hunters goinh to Africa.

And if I honestly thought that a bigger caliber would suit my hunting any better, I would have used one.

In all my hunts, at no time have felt that I was undergunned with a 375.

And I think what Ganyana is saying, which I have heard from many other PHs, is that the majority of people going on safari are better served by using a caliber they can actually shoot well.

This is no reflection on you, or anyone else who can handle larger calibers, and shoot them well.

Every year I go hunting, I hear horror stories of clients who turn up with brand new large bore rifles, and cannot seem to hit anything with them.

This reminds me of the client who bought a super accurate rifle, custom made, wich shot groups so small they can hardly be measured.

He apparently was on a 7 day plains game hunt, and brought only one box of ammo for his rifle.

He only wanted to shoot 6 animals.

On his first day out, he wounded a warthog, and fired an additional 8 shots to kill it.

Both buffalo and elephants are easily killed by smaller calibers than a 375.

But, because it is the minimum required, and as it does the job very well, I recommend it, and I use it.

Saeed,

Cutting through all of the wind then, your most recent post contradicts both your previous post and Ganyana's, with respect to yourself, of course. Hmmm, as I thought.

"I could do it, but you can't..." Common theme, eh?

JPK

Comment by Ganyana about the well-worn .375 bears a lot of truth, but it's not limited to calibre.

I have bigger rifles, and smaller rifles, but one clear favorite. I shoot whitetails with my .416 - not because it's the best rifle for the job -- it's not -- or the flattest shooting -- it's not -- or ideal for the job in any way -- it's not.

But, I shoot that rifle more than any other I own and I have the absolute confidence that if I do my job the rifle will. (It kills whitetails and turkeys reliably by the way -- careful on shot placement -- neck is best).

Out to 200 yards, it's the first rifle I'd pick up if someone said I absolutely had to make the shot. While this may sound crazy, I'm going to start practicing more out to 300, as I'd rather accept the limitations of that round at that range than use a more suitable rifle.

And yeah, it needs some refinishing. It gets carried a bit and gunracks, thorns, sweaty hands, etc. have taken their toll. But like a woman, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it's a keeper to me.

Wouldn't be my first choice on elephant, but then again ...