The 405 winchester is not a dangerous game caliber

21 December 2001, 07:22

Bill/Oregon

500 Grains: I realize the .405 earned a terrible reputation for lack of penetration using the very soft and frangible jacketed bullets available early in the 20th century. But don't you think a 350-grain Bear Claw or other bonded-core or partition bullet using the latest technology at 2150 or so would be getting close to adequate? I think the .405 is going to get another try, this time with modern powders and better yet, modern custom bullets, and I suspect it will come close to, even if ti will never match, the holy grail of classic .450-400 performance. Of course, I am just arm-chair theorizing, and I will bet Ray or someone will chime in here to tell me I am completely full of prunes.

21 December 2001, 07:32

SamB

Anyone know how fast Hornady is loading the .405? Old Winchester factory loads are 300gr at 2200 fps. Hornady's site just says they're making it competitive with today's "hot shots", whatever they are...

21 December 2001, 07:56

Brian M

500grains,
I really don't think someone is going to see the rhino on the box,go out and buy one then head out to Africa to hunt a rhino.Now,put an elk or moose on a 243 box,that's different.This is a whole other box of apples.

On September 11th,Brian Pearce was headed to Africa to hunt cape buffalo and plains game with the 405.Of course that didn't happen and he will be going there sometime next year
to test it.

The Hornady loads are going to be a 300 grain FN,supposedly built super tough for BIG game,loaded to 2200 FPS.You can handload that up to 2300 FPS.

I think it would be adequete for cape buffalo.It certainly wouldn't be what I'd choose to take to Africa though.Stateside,within 200 yards I think it would be hard to beat for all game.

The 405 to me at least is an intriging cartridge.Even so,I'll probibly never own one.I don't care for the new 1895 with the tang saftey,and an origanal is IMO way overpriced.The 405 does not fill any ballistic gap in my battery-four 45/70s,a 45/120 and a 458 Winchester take care of the whole range of 45 caliber ballistics from 1000-2300 FPS for me with various bullet weights.It is a novel idea though and they will certainly sell like pancakes.If the rifle was built like the origanal I'd probibly get one just to play around with.There's other guns I'd rather have anyway.

------------------
I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!

21 December 2001, 08:41

Fritz Kraut

quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
I saw that Hornday is making 405 win ammo with a picture of Teddy Roosevelt and a Rhino on the box. I consider that downright irresponsible, because the 405 winchester is not a cartridge suitable for thick skinned game like rhino, elephant, buffalo and hippo.

Some years ago I read Rooseveltï¿½s book about his safari travel to Africa in the beginning of the 20th century. If Iï¿½m not totally wrong he used the .405 on rhino and buff, and meant he had success with it. A personal impression when reading the book however, was that he had brought a lot of ammo with and didnï¿½t hesitate to empty a magasine or two to bag a game. He was also fond of shooting at long distances...

In this way Hornady has some reason for putting Roosevelt with a rhino on the ammo box. In his book Roosevelt has a lot of good words for this round and the Winchester 1895.

Rooseveltï¿½s book on Africa is really nice with a lot of wonderful photos and many good stories. Worth reading!

Fritz

21 December 2001, 08:58

GeorgeS

I too would like to take 'classic' rifles chambered for 'obsolete' cartridges to Africa to experiment on live game.

Unfortunately, personal ethics prevent me from doing so. Even when a gun- or ammunition-maker picks up the tab.

With so many modern cartridges capable of doing a better job than the .405, why use the .405?

Nostalgia just isn't a strong enough attraction for me, I guess.

George

------------------
Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

21 December 2001, 09:03

Recono

quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
I saw that Hornday is making 405 win ammo with a picture of Teddy Roosevelt and a Rhino on the box. I consider that downright irresponsible, because the 405 winchester is not a cartridge suitable for thick skinned game like rhino, elephant, buffalo and hippo.

You think that's irresponsible? How Gerber's baby food, with a picture of a baby on the jar?

Appealing to the cannibal market, no doubt.

21 December 2001, 09:14

500grains

1. Take a look at the sectional density of a 300 grain .405 bullet.

2. Consider what weight bullet a .405 needs to get a sectional density of .300.

3. Consider what velocity the 405 winchester can push the bullet from #2 above.

4. Compare the result from #3 above to quality dangerous game cartridges like the 458 lott and 416 rigby, and the shortcomings of the 405 winchester should be apparent.

Of course, lots of elephant and buffalo are shot today with the 7.62 x 39, but that does not mean it is a good idea.

22 December 2001, 03:48

MacD37

I have always liked the old 405 cartridge, and I think it would make a fine woods double rifle for North America. However in Africa, I personally, would not take anything, that bites back with it, bigger than a Leopard. With modern powder/bullet combo, it might be OK for Lion over bait, but IMO, not for follow-up on a wounded lion. In the thick thorn, it would make a nice so-called plains game cartridge in a double.

To me, the lever action rifle looks so out of place in Africa, I couldn't get into useing one there, no matter the chambering. Thats just a personal thing with me, and has little to do with anything else.

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

22 December 2001, 04:34

500grains

The 450/400 is the same bore diameter as the 405 winchester.

THe 450/400 shoots a 400 grain bullet at 2150 fps and is considered an adequate although not stellar buffalo killer. It may even be a tad light on elephant.

The 405 winchester shoots a 300 grain bullet at 2150 fps. It lacks the sectional density, mass and momentum to assure adequate penetration, although it will kill broadside buffalo. I would be surprised to read about a successful frontal brain shot on an elephant with a 405 winchester, considering all that it has against it.

If Winchester had the foresight to chamber the model 95 for the 500 NE 3", I would buy one, notwithstanding my strong prejudice against lever actions. (I own a Marlin 1895 45-70, Win M88 and Savage M99, but never use them any more.)

22 December 2001, 07:42

<Harald>

The standard dangerous game load in the old 450 BPE was a 360 gr hardened lead cast "solid" moving at 1950 fps. A .405 Win using a monolithic solid 300 gr FN at 2200 fps will penetrate through any portion of a buffalo with no difficulty and make exactly the same size hole as a .404 Jeffery, which is still considered to be a sterling caliber. On the .400, Pondoro Taylor regarded it as being without blemish. I know some think these ballistics are "obsolete" but animals today are no tougher than a century ago. Especially where solids are considered a few more 100 fps does not translate into significantly more penetration nor wound diameter.

22 December 2001, 08:17

500grains

"The standard dangerous game load in the old 450 BPE was a 360 gr hardened lead cast "solid" moving at 1950 fps."

That was superseded by more potent calibers. No rifles are chambered for 450 BPE today, are they?

"A .405 Win using a monolithic solid 300 gr FN at 2200 fps will penetrate through any portion of a buffalo with no difficulty"

Nope.

" and make exactly the same size hole as a .404 Jeffery, which is still considered to be a sterling caliber."

404 jeff modern loads push a 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps.

"I know some think these ballistics are "obsolete" but animals today are no tougher than a century ago. "

Those obsolete calibers are obsolte because they did not work well and were superseded by newer calibers that do work well.

"Especially where solids are considered a few more 100 fps does not translate into significantly more penetration"

Yes it does. The 458 win mag at 2150 fps is considered to be a poor penetrator. THe 458 lott at 2350 fps is considered to be an excellent penetrator. The difference is 200 fps.

[This message has been edited by 500grains (edited 12-21-2001).]

22 December 2001, 08:28

<Rusty>

If I'm not mistaken I think the lack of penetration is due to the .458 bullet design?
I think the better penetration of .408/.411 450/400 is due to the longer bullet. I think the same could be said for the .416. Now isn't the 404 Jeffery a .423 bullet? I don't have an experience with that round so I don't know.

Rusty
We band of brothers

22 December 2001, 09:02

<jthessen>

Rusty,
You know as well as i , that the 404 is indeed a 423 bullet, dunno if it will contribute to the thread though.

Recono,
Excellent comment!

I donï¿½t think Hornady will give it a second thought, allï¿½s well that sells well.

What was the quoted velocity?

//Jens

22 December 2001, 09:14

<Rusty>

JT,
Thanks wasn't sure I was remembering correctly?

Then the 404 Jeffery would punch a .423 hole and the 405 Winchester would punch a .406, as I remember?

From what I have heard the 404 Jeffery is a heck of a round. I know Ray loves his!
I think I will stick with my .408 450/400 3 inch

Rusty
We band of brothers

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 12-22-2001).]

22 December 2001, 12:05

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by Harald:
The standard dangerous game load in the old 450 BPE was a 360 gr hardened lead cast "solid" moving at 1950 fps. A .405 Win using a monolithic solid 300 gr FN at 2200 fps will penetrate through any portion of a buffalo with no difficulty and make exactly the same size hole as a .404 Jeffery, which is still considered to be a sterling caliber.

The thing you are not saying in your quote above is, the 450 BPE was never the premier buffalo load! This round was designed for Moose hunting in Europe, though some people tried to take Cape Buffalo with it, with some bad results on occasion. The 450 round that was considered the do-all, be-all for Buffalo in Africa was the 450NE 3 1/4" and used a 480 gr soft or solid bullet @ 2150 generateing 4930 fpe, and developing 17 metric tons of chamber pressure. Quite a different animal all toghther!

This round (the 450 NE 3.25") would still be with us if the UK had not banned the .458 dia bullet in the Sudan, and India, to keep the enemy from useing the bullets in their stolen rifles. The 470, 465, and the like are only here because of this ban, not because they are so much better.

The 405 is a fine cartridge, and, in it's place, would be a joy to hunt with, but Cape Buffalo is not that place,IMO! I'm glad, however that Hornady decided to load it. The picture on the box, however, should have depicted a Leopard, at most, along with old Teddy. There is nothing wrong with the nostalgia pictured on the box, but I think we have already seen evidence of someone trying to use it for something it was clearly not designed to do! It was developed for a North American hunting cartridge, nothing more!

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

22 December 2001, 14:46

Brian M

500grains,

You are leaving out that the 458 Winny is considered a bad penetrator only with faulty factory ammo that produced squib type velocitys (like hunters pulling bullets out of elephants with their fingers).That ammo has gone the way of the dodo.New,good factory ammo like the Hornady Heavy Magnums and handloads in the 458 make it a well respected penetrator on heavy game.Remember,when it pushes a 500 at 2150 FPS,it is fully equaling the darling of most cape buffalo and elephant hunters,the 470 NE.

------------------
I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!

22 December 2001, 16:05

<333-OKH>

500 grains; "The 458 win mag at 2150 fps is considered to be a poor penetrator. The 458 Lott at 2350 fps is considered to be an excellent penetrator. The difference is 200 fps." With all due consideration, the only possible explaination is placebo effect. Both the buff and the Bwana expect better performance, ipso facto, better performance is obtained. Remember, the truth is out there.

------------------
If Elmer didn't say it, it probably ain't true.

22 December 2001, 16:13

<Slamfire>

If you got an original, and took it to Africa, you'd be able to swap it for your hunt fees. ;^) For some reason them professionals are all caught up in wild west type fantisies.

23 December 2001, 16:11

500grains

"You are leaving out that the 458 Winny is considered a bad penetrator only with
faulty factory ammo that produced squib type velocitys"

No, that is not what I said.

I said that the 458 win mag is considered a bad penetrator with 500 grains at 2150 fps. Ask experienced elephant hunters if they you want you taking a frontal brain shot with that combination.

23 December 2001, 16:29

Brian M

500grains,
Then why is the 470 NE such popular elephant medicine?When you get right down to it,the 458 actualy penetrates better than the 470,in theory at least.

The 458 was Finn Aggard's favorite jumbo medicine and he had nothing but praise for it.I would sure like to hear about all the PHs and professional jumbo hunters that would claim that with a good 500 or 510 at 2150 FPS that it wouldn't penetrate to the brain on a frontal shot.Please name some names or make some quotes with references.

------------------
I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!

24 December 2001, 04:13

<allen day>

The "new" Model 95 in .405 ought to be a fine novelty. The ammunition was packaged to reflect the history and nostalgia of this cartridge - nothing more. Most of these .405s will either remain unfired or will be used to kill paper. Only a few will be used on elk and stuff in N. America, and a very few of them will be used ala TR in Africa. I'm not exactly sitting around on the edge of my chair waiting for Brian Pierce's 'comprehensive' modern field trial of the .405 in Africa to hit the newstands. He plays Elmer Keith too much for my taste.

It's funny, but some outfit produces special lead bullets, and all of a sudden the old .45-70 becomes the most lethal, deadly buffalo killer on the planet. Winchester reintroduces a Japanese '95 (complete with a genu-wine tang safety as a lil' bonus!) in .405 and all of a sudden a few guys get the idea that maybe we've got a real latent killer on our hands. Yet the old .458 Winchester, which has greater potential killing power than either the .45-70 or the .405, still gets kicked around as some sort of lackluster performer. Go figure!

24 December 2001, 07:06

<Harald>

Thank you, 333-OKH, for pointing out the fallacy in the claim that a .458-500 gr bullet at 2150 fps is a poor performer. That is in fact the standard for all the most popular nitro expresses. If it did not work we would never have seen the profusion of variations on a single theme. The fact that the more potent nitro express load appeared is no commentary on the inadequacy of the earlier BPE load any more than the appearance of the 300 RUM is a commentary on the inadequacy of the .30-`06 Springfield. Technology permits more, so more we now have. That is all. I've said this before and I cannot prove it but I would bet that vastly more buffalo have been shot with .461 Gibbs, .450 BPE, .450-577 Martini-Henry loads than with all flavors of .450-465-470-475 NEs combined. Especially those Martinis were distributed by the thousands whereas the real reason we talk of NE doubles is that rich guys wrote books about it. There were mighty few such hunters so engaged. Those black powder 450 loads were used for 30 years before the first nitro load came out. Those who used them liked them. Selous thought they were more powerful than necessary. A significant number of hunters of dangerous game after the nitro revolution used 256, 303, 30-06, 7 mm, 333, 318, 9.3 and similar calibers in preference to the big bores (again preferred by the rich guys) and never looked back. Not many of them died horribly under the hooves or in the horns of a buffalo.

I think some took me too literally when I said a "405" and a "404" made "exactly" the same hole (or perhaps I was careless in my choice of words), but I also think some of you would be surprised at just how little difference there is in hole size produced by SOLIDS fired from 408 and 488 calibers or from 2200 fps and 2400 fps in the same caliber. There is a lot of opinion about the terminal behavior of bullets to be had. Some of it is actually informed. I encourage everyone who wants to know the truth to put the technology to the test. Allen Day and others are quite right - the old 458 Win Mag is fine and more capable than the 45-70, 405 Win, and any of the 450 blackpowder types. But the difference is less than most people believe and if you haven't seen the evidence than you need to examine it before you become too dogmatic.

24 December 2001, 14:04

500grains

Brian M,

The 470 NE, although popular, is not known for deep penetration. For penetration, look to the 416 rigby.

There is a gentleman who frequents this forum under the name Norbert who has extensive experience shooting elephants. I think he will confirm for you that 500 grains at 2150 offers margin penetration on elephants, sometimes not reaching the brain on a frontal brain shot.

Why on earth would we expect a 300 grainer at 2150 fps to do it?

24 December 2001, 15:50

Brian M

500grains,
Both the 470 NE and 458 Winny are renowned for their penetration,espically on elephants.If they didn't pentrate why are they so popular among hunters AND Ph's?

In case you haven't noticed,almost everyone here agrees with you that the 405 Winchester shouldn't be used on thick skin dangerous game.I really doubt that someone with the $$$ to hunt Africa is going to take a 405 Winchester.

------------------
I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!

24 December 2001, 16:27

<Sunpuncher>

Fritz,

Indeed TR took quite a lot of ammo with him on his safari. He needed it for two reasons. Firstly he was "commissioned" by the Smithsonian Institute to collect mammals, birds, fish and plants for their collection. Frankly I believe it was probably just an afterthought. Secondly, he was a very poor shot at best due to his eyesight. He would also become very excited upon finding game. He would often wing or gut shoot animals he hunted in the Badlands while ranching there. In one story he knocked the hind leg off some hapless Blacktail! He is easily one of the most colorful figures in American history but I'm afraid that if PETA was around back then they would have busted his chops pretty severely! As for the .405 for dangerous game , I would feel more comfortable with the .458 Win Mag.

25 December 2001, 06:00

500grains

Brian M.,

"Both the 470 NE and 458 Winny are renowned for their penetration,espically on elephants."

I do not claim to be an expert on African hunting. But I would suggest that you consider attending the SCI show in Las Vegas in March. Ask the PH's there who specialize in elephants if indeed the 470 and 458 win mag are reknown for their penetration on elephants. I think they will say NO.

Lots of PH's these days carry 458 lotts. That is because the extra 200 fps over the 458 win mag gets them noticeably more penetration.

A frontal brain shot on an elephant is no easy trick. If the elephant has his head tilted up, or if you are within 15-20 feet of him when you fire, the bullet must penetrate quite a bit of trunk before it even hits the honeycomb skull. Then it must break through that spongy skull and reach the brain.

The higher velocity cartridges (Lott, Rigby, etc.) have proven themselves superior when such penetration is required.

However, my personal preference for elephant shooting at close range would be a 577 or 500 double, even though I know I am sacrificing on penetration.

By the way, if you decide to go to SCI, we should meet and arm wrestle to settle this once and for all.

:-)

[This message has been edited by 500grains (edited 12-24-2001).]

25 December 2001, 08:42

Pete E

Out of interest, you guys should read any of the books by Kenneth Anderson. He hunted in India around the 1940's and 50's and used a lever action .405 almost exclusively for dealing with maneating tigers, panthers as well as the odd rogue elephant. In his writings he does not come across as a gun/balistic expert", more as a hunter who uses his rifle as a tool. What is clear iss that he has every confidence in the round.
Are there better rounds out there? yes...but it seems as usual its the man behind the trigger who is the most important factor...

25 December 2001, 09:13

Oldsarge

And one can always state the obvious that with judicious handloads, it is likely that the .405 can be loaded to precisely the same ballistics as the canonized .450/400. However, might I point out that in the grand old day of Selous not much buffalo hunting was done? According to Kevin Robertson (Doctori)'s book NYATI during the late 1890's rinderpest nearly exterminated the whole species. It was not until the 1950's that the continental population recovered enough for Bad Black to become the entry level DG that it currently is.

Personally, I'd rather use the Mod 95 on called moose . . . from a canoe . . . wearing knee high L.L.Bean boots . . . and a red flannel shirt . . . and a campaign hat.

Sarge

25 December 2001, 09:19

GeorgeS

Ol'Sarge,

Don't forget your red wool union suit with the trap door seat

George

------------------
Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

25 December 2001, 09:39

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Ol'Sarge,
Don't forget your red wool union suit with the trap door seat
George

AND!!!!!! your red "SPINDERS" AND MARBEL HUNTIN KNIFE!

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

25 December 2001, 11:21

Brian M

500grains,

Finn Aggard's favorite jumbo gun was the 458,and he killed quite a few charging him with frontal brain shots.

I always get a kick out of how when a new cartridge comes out,the old one becomes crap.The 458 Winchester was the king of elephant guns,up until 1988 when the 416 Remington Magnum came out.Then writers claim the 458 is underpowered and you really need a 416-much the same today with the "old" 300 Magnums being thrown out in favor of RUMs and such.

You must admit,most PHs don't know a hill of beans about rifles and cartridges,and most could really care less what your hunting with as long as the hole in the end of the barrel is big.

Can't make it to SCI in Lost Wages,am in the process of moving and running around like a freaking chicken with its head cut off.Hell,if we met I wouldn't know if I'd want to shake your hand,arm wrestle you or kick your ass.

------------------
I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!

[This message has been edited by Brian M (edited 12-25-2001).]

27 December 2001, 10:34

Fritz Kraut

quote:
Originally posted by Sunpuncher:
Fritz,
Indeed TR took quite a lot of ammo with him on his safari. He needed it for two reasons. Firstly he was "commissioned" by the Smithsonian Institute to collect mammals, birds, fish and plants for their collection. Frankly I believe it was probably just an afterthought. Secondly, he was a very poor shot at best due to his eyesight. He would also become very excited upon finding game. He would often wing or gut shoot animals he hunted in the Badlands while ranching there. In one story he knocked the hind leg off some hapless Blacktail! He is easily one of the most colorful figures in American history but I'm afraid that if PETA was around back then they would have busted his chops pretty severely! As for the .405 for dangerous game , I would feel more comfortable with the .458 Win Mag.

Sunpuncher,

thanks for your comments, which are interesting indeed. I did read Roosevelds book some years ago, and donï¿½t remember the details quite well. If they still have it at the library, Iï¿½ll borrow it again.

I think that Hornady found that picture of the rhino among the photos in Roosevelds book on his safari tour. He did use it for rhino and took a photoshot of some nice rhinos, which he bagged with his .405.

However, I have no difficulties at all to agree with all the experienced gentlemen here who prefer something more adequate for that game.

Best regards,

Fritz

01 January 2002, 17:58

500grains

oldsarge

Since the 405 win pushes a 300 grain bullet at 2250 fps, I am not sure how you are going to push a 400 grainer at 2150 fps to match the 450/400 (which is at the minimum end caliberwise anyway).

That 300 grain pill has a sectional density of .255 - not quite up there in the realm of sectional densities known for penetration.

But if a few gunwriters kill buffalo with the .405, next we'll be discussing the suitability of the 444 Marlin and 38-55 for buffalo.

:-)

01 January 2002, 18:20

Oldsarge

I can't locate my most recent American Rifleman where there is a series of articles about both the .405 Win and the M95 but if I recall correctly, the current round is loaded to very mild pressures, as was the original. Since the M95 was chambered for the 30'06 it is obviously strong enough to withstand pressures in the 55,000+ CUP range. If that is the case, and you are certainly encouraged to correct me if I have misread, then such pressures should allow the .405 to be loaded up to the necessary velocity to match the .450/400 with a suitably heavy bullet. It will still look funny to take a lever action to Africa but with adequate loads it should be suitable.

Sarge

01 January 2002, 18:55

HenryC470

quote:
Originally posted by Fritz Kraut:
Some years ago I read Rooseveltï¿½s book about his safari travel to Africa in the beginning of the 20th century. If Iï¿½m not totally wrong he used the .405 on rhino and buff, and meant he had success with it...
...really nice with a lot of wonderful photos and many good stories. Worth reading!
Fritz

Fritz, I'm about halfway through "African Game Trails", and am enjoying it. Lot's of the shoot badly, chase the wouunded beast on horseback, shoot again kind of hunting, though. I haven't paid enough attention to recall his taking thick-skinned game with his 405, but I have seen him refer to that rifle as his "lion medicine". I'll take your word and Winchester's implication that he did kill some thick skinned game with his 405, and I won't try it.

H.C.

01 January 2002, 20:07

Brian M

500grains,

The guy who owns Midway (don't know his name),killed a rhino a few months back with an origanal 405 Winny.Don't know what bullet he used.

The 405 sure as hell wouldn't be my first choice for anything dangerous in Africa,but there are a lot worse things one could use.Somehow I think basicaly no Joe Consumer is going to take a 405 to Africa for dangerous game.Most will be bought as investments or to bowl over the occasional deer or elk.I predict that very few infact will even be sold.The market isn't real big for it-most non-gun savvy people will look at the expensive Winchester 95 and it's expensive ammo,and then look at the reasonably price Marlin 1895 45-70 with it's reasonably priced ammo,and go with the Marlin.

------------------
I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!

02 January 2002, 05:44

Oldsarge

I think that the M1895 was designed to be a limited edition, anyway, and I think it will sell completely out! Just look at all the Winchester collectors who snap up every single of the commerative M94's, no matter how silly. Also, Brian, you have to remember the very good populations of moose in the Northeast. That's where the .405 Win will star. Heck, if I lived there I'd put my aquisition of vintage African Mausers on hold long enough to get one and take it out. Look at how well the M9410 is selling and you can't tell me that's a sensible gun.

Sarge