NAPHA - so what happened in the meeting?

07 December 2009, 09:52

A.Dahlgren

John: I think the last post he did on Dec 1 was about the meeting.

To All Stakeholders,

As promised, an update on the leopard/cheetah issue in Namibia for the season 2010.

"Kindly be informed that the Ministry of Environment and Tourism will extend
the moratorium on the hunting of cheetah and leopards beyond February 2010.
The moratorium will only be withdrawn once the new regulations has been
gazetted. We are uncertain as to when that will be, but Attorney General's
Office is already working on the regulations."

This is a direct quote from the Director of MET and we hope that the regulations will be gazetted sooner, rather than later.

We will keep you posted on any further noteworthy information.

Best Regards,

PinkPantheronTrack

08 December 2009, 08:09

Andrew McLaren

Perhaps Buliwyf was there and got everyone arrested?

Possibly they are now incarcerated and awaiting prosecution in a place where no-one can make a posting?

Maybe the 'bloodbath' that I had joked about actually happened and all are dead or hospitalized?

The waiting for feedback is just adding to the suspense! Wonder who will be first to break the silence?

Meanwhile ......

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

08 December 2009, 10:05

Idaho Sharpshooter

The silence is deafening...

Scratch Namibia for 2010 at least.

There are too many quality safaris and companies in other countries to let a pack of hyenas like this group attempt to ruin an expensive trip.

Rich

08 December 2009, 17:01

Peter

quote:
pack of hyenas

I know two of this pack and they are better men than you.
Peter.

08 December 2009, 18:23

crane

It would seem we are , as of today, still not in posession of all the facts. If anyone has them please post. Thanks.

08 December 2009, 19:10

Oryxhunter1983

So what exactly are you guys wanting to hear from the Meeting? They already retracked their statements concerning the whole Lacey Issue.

What else do you want?

08 December 2009, 20:10

JohnHunt

They retracted that statement and posted a new one that is more carefully worded. However the new one still left it open for NAPHA to report hunters to the USFG.

After the overt threat I would look for a statement binding them from ever talking to USFG.

If any communication needs to happen then it should come from MET.

08 December 2009, 21:00

Saeed

I think the least NAPHA can do to try to rectify the disaster they have created is to state, catagorically, that they are NOT going to be concerned with the client, but concentrate on weeding out the undesireables amongst the outfitters and PHs operating in Namibia.

They have stepped way out of line by trying to threatning foreign clients.

The sad part is the fall out from this is going to affect a lot of decent, honest outfitters and PHs in Namibia.

08 December 2009, 21:17

Oryxhunter1983

Saeed,
I completely agree with you concerning this "fall out". However, I don't think they are going to send out a big heartfelt apology, I think they are going to try and sweep it under the rug. Not saying it's the best move, but I know people who were at Napha, and they said, nothing about it when I grilled them.

I know at the Phasa meeting, it was brought up by Napha Reps, that they were going to crack down on RSA Ph's who were traveling into Namibia and hunting illegally, because they are not licensed to do so.

08 December 2009, 21:29

JohnHunt

It does look like that is the approach they are taking.

Probably taking the calculation that we (as a group) are not going to represent much business risk.

This will flare up in a whole new way if they actually report another Amercian hunter to USFG. I don't think they understand the risk.

Pinkpantherontrack was sure fired up for the meeting, interesting that he hasn't reported back as promised. Maybe the whole group has united to try and stop the damage?

08 December 2009, 21:38

pinotguy

quote:
Originally posted by JohnHunt:
This will flare up in a whole new way if they actually report another Amercian hunter to USFG. I don't think they understand the risk.

John,

I have probably missed quite a bit regarding the NAPHA situation but did they name names to the USF&WS? If they did, can you provide any details?

Thanks.

08 December 2009, 21:38

shakari

quote:
Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
they were going to crack down on RSA Ph's who were traveling into Namibia and hunting illegally, because they are not licensed to do so.

This doesn't just happen in Namibia. It's a problem throughout Africa and a few PHs from pretty much all (hunting) African countries are guilty of this.

It would have been far more sensible for the Namibian GD & Gvt to speak to the relevent Govt & GD and sort it out behind closed doors.

I actually think it's damaged the entire African hunting industry rather than just the Namibian industry.

quote:
Originally posted by JohnHunt: Maybe the whole group has united to try and stop the damage?

That could well be the best option now, but it's a shame they didn't think of that right at the start!

08 December 2009, 22:17

JohnHunt

quote:
Originally posted by pinotguy:
quote:
Originally posted by JohnHunt:
This will flare up in a whole new way if they actually report another Amercian hunter to USFG. I don't think they understand the risk.

John,

I have probably missed quite a bit regarding the NAPHA situation but did they name names to the USF&WS? If they did, can you provide any details?

Thanks.

This is from NAPHA. I don't know if they actually did or not, but they said they did.

Namibian PH Charged for Hunting Leopard with Artificial Light

A Namibian registered PH has been charged by the Ministry of Environment and Tourism for illegally hunting two leopards with two US hunting clients by using artificial light.

The PH is not a NAPHA member. US Fish and Wildlife will be informed about the incident.__________________
NAPHA - Namibia Professional Hunting Association
napha@mweb.com.na
http://www.natron.net/napha/

http://www.africahunting.com/h...rtificial-light.html

08 December 2009, 22:26

Idaho Sharpshooter

I really had wanted to hunt Namibia, and take a couple extra days to see the country. That's not going to happen now. I hope the safari cancellations and non-bookings hurt the country enough for them to consider hanging the entire board.

Rich

Too many other places to spend my yankee dollars to risk a Lacey Act threat.

08 December 2009, 22:53

gbanger

I'm still sticking to my original position. The leadership board that issued the original threat to American hunting clients have to be drummed out of NAPHA before I would consider spending my hard earned dollars there.

09 December 2009, 14:36

tendrams

Hate to say it....but I am voting with my dollars and hunting elsewhere. I just don't take kindly to being threatened when I am the one paying the bills and by those who can't keep their own people in line. I apologize to all the good Namibian PHs out there but this should be a good incentive for you all to clean house a bit. I'll be one of the first to sign up to hunt there once you do.

09 December 2009, 15:08

shakari

If they really have reported clients to USF&WS I guarantee it'll cause very serious repuccussions throughout the hunting industry all over Africa, rather than just in Namibia.

09 December 2009, 18:25

crane

Steve- That still is a big "IF", as throughout these threads no one has been forthcoming about an actual report. I'm now wondering if this was a case of an internet rumor or half truth run amock. There have been ample opportunities for those sceaming the loudest to produce facts of such reporting, but that has not happened. It is still very interesting to me that there has been such a weak respone on the ground from Namibia. Wouldn't you think they would want the air cleared before the shows and marketing season?

09 December 2009, 18:33

shakari

Crane,

You're right, it is a big if which is why I used the word and I have to say, I'd be a little suprised IF it is true because they'd be shooting not only the entire Namibian hunting industry in both feet, they'd also be shooting the entire African hunting industry, including the hunters and game depts in both feet IF it's true.

ADDED

As far as having it cleared up before the shows goes, if I were an outfitter up there, I'd be spitting feathers but as I'm not, I've tried to keep out of it and also encourage the idea that it be sorted out behind closed doors, but IF guys have been reported to USF&WS and I note that no-one has denied that fact, I think matters have spilled out beyond Namibian borders and other countries will now be affected..... therefore it's too late to put the cat back in the bag and I feel more inclined to comment.

09 December 2009, 19:43

Oryxhunter1983

Well, I would like to hear from these reported clients?

The truth is simple, if you're hunting with a reputable PH, there shouldn't be a problem. Plain and simple, I wouldn't go over there with someone I wouldn't trust.

I've hunted Namibia 2x and I plan on going back next year to hit the caprivi.

09 December 2009, 20:14

Saeed

quote:
Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
Well, I would like to hear from these reported clients?

The truth is simple, if you're hunting with a reputable PH, there shouldn't be a problem. Plain and simple, I wouldn't go over there with someone I wouldn't trust.

I've hunted Namibia 2x and I plan on going back next year to hit the caprivi.

I suspect no one was reported because the proverbial shit hit the fan the minute some thoughtless beaurocrat at NAPHA MADE THAT ANNOUNCEMENT.

The truth is that everyone hunts with someone they hope to trust. There is no point in hunting with some you cannot trust.

What NAPHA has brought into the equation is, threatning actions against foreign clients, which was totally uncalled for, and totally out of line.

I suspect there. are many hunters like yourself. Who have hunted with people in Namibia and would hunt with them again.

And I suspect there are others who have been put off by that announcement, and would give Namibia wide berth.

I have heard from PHs in Namibia who were absolutely livid at that announcement. He went as far as to say "...what a bunch of absolute wankers...". Those were his words.

Their silence does bode well.

09 December 2009, 20:23

shakari

quote:
Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
Well, I would like to hear from these reported clients?

The truth is simple, if you're hunting with a reputable PH, there shouldn't be a problem. Plain and simple, I wouldn't go over there with someone I wouldn't trust.

I've hunted Namibia 2x and I plan on going back next year to hit the caprivi.

Oryx,

Therein lays the problem.

No set of game laws are completely perfect and most were written so long ago, they're completely out of date. A sensible PH works with that and works on the principle that they're for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.

In this case, for example, two guys have (allegedly) been reported for hunting Leopards at night because the game act forbids it....... well, that same rule applies to most African countries and as Leopard are a nocturnal species, if it were strictly adhered to, the success rates of baited Leopard hunts would drop by about 95% and that ain't good for anyone. Not only will the client not get his cat, the quota won't be filled and may be cut the next year, so less to sell and a win for the antis.

Just to give you an idea of how no set of game laws can be perfect, one African country prohibits the cutting of any tree or branch and bans fires except in camp. The same GD also omitted to add croc to the list of animals that can be shot within 200 yards of water. It also prohibits any permanent structure in most areas, therefore technically, you can't build a camp or a road, clear a runway, build a blind or burn the grass so you get new grass and attract the game and pretty much every croc that's been shot there in the last 50 odd years or so, was technically illegal.

Therefore, logic tells us that anyone who stays in such a camp, drops a match to help the grazing, drives a road, cuts a branch, lands on an airstrip or shoots a crocodile within 200 yards of water is possibly, technically in breach of a game law. Fortunately, these things are usually and very sensibly ignored whilst the more important aspects of the game laws are strictly obeyed.

Sure, the situation is rucking fidiculous, but nevertheless, that's the situation and if someone starts reporting every such technical breaches of the various acts, there's gonna be big problems for all kinds of people sooner or later....... to say nothing of what to do where a country has more than one set of game acts that contradict each other.

Ideally, pretty much every African country would re-write their game laws to make them more logical but there's absolutely no chance of that happening and instead, any sensible person will regard the various acts as for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men and these interfering plonkers who threaten to report people and drop them in the shit for what is after all only a technical breach of an unreasonable requirement, will decide instead to shut the hell up and stop trying to kill the golden goose!

ADDED

There's at least one African country currently writing their game laws now and my guess is that when they are finally published, they'll be simpler, more logical and more practical than all the others put together!

09 December 2009, 23:59

JohnHunt

Well since NAPHA and there members have gone silent I emailed the enforecement division of the USFWS to ask if any hunters were reported.

Who knows, they might even answer

10 December 2009, 00:14

kibokolambogo

quote:
Originally posted by shakari:
quote:
Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
Well, I would like to hear from these reported clients?

The truth is simple, if you're hunting with a reputable PH, there shouldn't be a problem. Plain and simple, I wouldn't go over there with someone I wouldn't trust.

I've hunted Namibia 2x and I plan on going back next year to hit the caprivi.

Oryx,

Therein lays the problem.

No set of game laws are completely perfect and most were written so long ago, they're completely out of date. A sensible PH works with that and works on the principle that they're for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.

In this case, for example, two guys have (allegedly) been reported for hunting Leopards at night because the game act forbids it....... well, that same rule applies to most African countries and as Leopard are a nocturnal species, if it were strictly adhered to, the success rates of baited Leopard hunts would drop by about 95% and that ain't good for anyone. Not only will the client not get his cat, the quota won't be filled and may be cut the next year, so less to sell and a win for the antis.

Just to give you an idea of how no set of game laws can be perfect, one African country prohibits the cutting of any tree or branch and bans fires except in camp. The same GD also omitted to add croc to the list of animals that can be shot within 200 yards of water. It also prohibits any permanent structure in most areas, therefore technically, you can't build a camp or a road, clear a runway, build a blind or burn the grass so you get new grass and attract the game and pretty much every croc that's been shot there in the last 50 odd years or so, was technically illegal.

Therefore, logic tells us that anyone who stays in such a camp, drops a match to help the grazing, drives a road, cuts a branch, lands on an airstrip or shoots a crocodile within 200 yards of water is possibly, technically in breach of a game law. Fortunately, these things are usually and very sensibly ignored whilst the more important aspects of the game laws are strictly obeyed.

Sure, the situation is rucking fidiculous, but nevertheless, that's the situation and if someone starts reporting every such technical breaches of the various acts, there's gonna be big problems for all kinds of people sooner or later....... to say nothing of what to do where a country has more than one set of game acts that contradict each other.

Ideally, pretty much every African country would re-write their game laws to make them more logical but there's absolutely no chance of that happening and instead, any sensible person will regard the various acts as for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men and these interfering plonkers who threaten to report people and drop them in the shit for what is after all only a technical breach of an unreasonable requirement, will decide instead to shut the hell up and stop trying to kill the golden goose!

ADDED

There's at least one African country currently writing their game laws now and my guess is that when they are finally published, they'll be simpler, more logical and more practical than all the others put together!

If its the one I'm thinking of it don't look rosy !

10 December 2009, 00:30

Oryxhunter1983

Well I guess we will all just have to see what happens in the end. I don't believe that it will become an issue, because the people of Napha cant be so hollow to not realize the storm they would create and devistate their industry.

I've worked in enough organizations that I've seen some people make statements that do not represent the ideas of the whole and sometimes those people are in charge of PR, which is always amazing to me.

My thought would be this, not implying I advocate breaking the hunting laws, but even if you did "break a branch or shoot something near water" how in the world are you going to get reported on, and by who? Because I highly doubt any of us are going to be hunting with the Board of Napha walking behind?? Do you think your PH is going to be calling in on his own hunters? It just doesn't make sense?

10 December 2009, 00:36

It does not matter if NAPHA reported American hunters to the USFW or not, what matters is that they said they were going to. For me that by itself is enough to hunt else where.

10 December 2009, 00:42

shakari

quote:
Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
how in the world are you going to get reported on, and by who? Because I highly doubt any of us are going to be hunting with the Board of Napha walking behind?? Do you think your PH is going to be calling in on his own hunters? It just doesn't make sense?

That's my point buddy. Normally no-one would give it a moments thought, but now this has happened, it's been bought to the attention of people who will probably feel they have to be seen to do something.

Until now, these people would know what does and doesn't happen but would have ignored small intrangencies for the reasons I mentioned..... but now that will probably have to change.

If clients have been reported, it's only a matter of time before this spills over and become a bloody nuisance to other African countries!

10 December 2009, 02:05

Mike Smith

Too late for them to "handle this behind closed doors". They have let the genie out of the bottle and now will pay hell to get him back in. I would request that every member who attends the SCI convention pay the NAPHA representatives a visit. I think we need to continue to vote with our dollars and voice our displeasure. I for one already cancelled my hunt for this year. I wont be going in 2010 either. Its time to teach these folks a lesson in economics.

10 December 2009, 02:16

Michael Robinson

Good. I like these reactions.

I admit that I am selfish, but empty planes apeal to me.

I can stretch out in coach and experience first class travel for much less money.

Hah! I should be so lucky.

No one who has hunted Namibia with a reputable and licensed outfitter and intends to do so again will be put off by this nonsense.

NAPHA certainly screwed up, but I will just say this.

If you hunted with the right people (meaning licensed and reputable) before the screw up, you ran the same legal risks as you will if you hunt with the right people afterwards.

Meaning - no risks at all!

10 December 2009, 02:20

Idaho Sharpshooter

mrlexma,

do you, per chance, happen to have that list handy?
I have my version of "the list", and Namibia is not on it for 2010 04 2011. I am pleased to allow you to spread out in my empty seat for the forseeable future.

Rich

10 December 2009, 02:41

geoff

When was the actual AGM of NAPHA held? My understanding was early December. If anyone knows the actual date, please advise. I have asked 4 Namibia PH members for their feedback on this issue and have not received any replies.

Geoff

10 December 2009, 02:51

JohnHunt

Dec 2.

maybe our own Karl Strumpf would have some feedback.

10 December 2009, 06:29

Mike Smith

mrlexma, If you think this "nonsense" is just about the "legal risk" you are sorely mistaken.

10 December 2009, 06:45

gbanger

mrlexma, I'm sure all the Namibians trying to sell hunts at the DSC show that I talk to and tell why I am not coming to their country will be cheered when I tell them you, spread out on 5 seats, still are.

10 December 2009, 07:15

Michael Robinson

You guys are spending way too much time with your grandmothers, worrying about which basement corner to hide in during the next tornado.

This is normal due diligence, nothing more.

Do it, and you'll be fine. Don't, and you may not be.

No joke. This is the proverbial tempest in the teapot. IMHO, of course.

10 December 2009, 09:08

Oryxhunter1983

Mrlexma,
I'm with you, I think there are many people who are blowing this out of proportion. Some people in this organization "made stupid comments" but they realize their mistake. Now would a formal press release saying how stupid they were and very sorry, begging forgiveness, make everything better?

Possibly, but it isn't going to happen. Hell people in our own gov' don't apologize for the shit they pull so why on earth would you expect napha to?

I think they are just trying to move on and let it go... as should some members on here.

Also, this is just a side bar, what makes you think that the "entire hunting world" is going to know about this?? Because if I wasn't on this forum, I wouldn't have known anything. I don't think you'll see an exodus from Namibia hunting.

10 December 2009, 10:05

86thecat

It might be prudent to make sure there are no references to or photos of hunts that could be considered illegal, by the letter of the law, posted online.

10 December 2009, 10:44

Mike Smith

You all can do what you want as can I. I choose not to support people who obviously view us with contempt. You can say that this whole thing was just a little slip of the tongue, a poor choice of words. I think it revealed a lot about the organization and how they view us. I will be polite and not bring up the blackmail. There is a price placed on you just like the animals you hunt. How much money can they suck out of you before you are no use to them anymore? I choose to spend my money elswhere with people I Think I can trust.

10 December 2009, 18:32

dogcat

quote:
Originally posted by mrlexma:
You guys are spending way too much time with your grandmothers, worrying about which basement corner to hide in during the next tornado.

This is normal due diligence, nothing more.

Do it, and you'll be fine. Don't, and you may not be.

No joke. This is the proverbial tempest in the teapot. IMHO, of course.

Mrlexma,
I agree with you. Tempest in a teapot. I would go and not think twice about it.

PS - Did you note the Harvard-Yale outcome this year? And by chance the linebacker that intercepted the last lateral on the last play of the game to seal the deal? Not bragging but he is someone special.