Folks,

Our local ammo manufacturer launched a new range of premium ammo last week using Swift bullets.
At the launch mention was made that airlines were making noises about ceasing to carry ammunition in the future.
Where this initiative is coming from, IATA or other, no clarity as yet.
I had this confirmed by 2 seperate attendees to the ammunition launch, and we are trying to establish where the speaker obtained his information.
I am mentioning this as a "heads up" being a believer that where there is smoke, there could be a fire.

I'll be interested to hear what the speaker can add if anyone tracks him down.

Ordinary (smokeless powder) ammo is classified as flammable/hazardous material and under the Air Navigation Order, Carriage of Dangerous Goods act and other legislation (which applies to all commercial airlines world wide) is permitted to tavel under certain weight and storage requirements. (5kgs and every round separated from every other round etc)

Although individual airlines can choose to opt not to carry any item, for carriage to be banned completely would mean a change in the above mentioned order and probably other legislation to which the various countries would have to agree.

One factor that could trigger it is that there seems to be some black powder/pyrodex etc users who very stupidly claim to load BP etc which is classified as explosive 1.1 into metallic cartridges and pass it off as smokeless powder. Any material classified as explosive may not travel on commercial aircraft.......... and it could be that the governing powers are considering simply banning all ammo to ensure no-one endangers aircraft by travelling with BP etc.

500 Nitro, I also speculate that airlines may become fatigued with the international problems associated with ammunition transportation. One nation allows it to be in the gun case, another doesn't. Then passengers have gun cases impounded. Claims are made against the airline for stolen or lost baggage. I hope airlines don't outlaw ammunition transportation because I could never find commercial ammo similar to my hand-loaded ammo. One possibility is that airlines might decide to simply charge extra for rifles and ammunition to pay in advance for all the hassle they represent. Unfortunately, I am a prime example of the problem.

Delta just lost my rifle and ammunition during my return from Zimbabwe. They don't have a clue where it is after a week of looking (or not looking). I'm on them every day and I have residents of Johannesburg looking through the security area of the airport, but no joy. At some point Delta and other carriers may say "We've had enough." I see why hunters would worry that there could be changes coming.

Bill,

I hope you won't mind me correcting you slightly. It isn't individual countries that allows or forbids ammo to travel with or without the firearm, it's the individual airline who make thos requirements.

All airlines are bound by the Air Navigation Order, Carriage of Dangerous Goods act and that stipulates that the firearms travel in an unloaded condition, in a hard locked case and that ammo travel in the manufacturers packaging or other hard case that keeps every round separated from every other round. Legally, according to that act the ammo (5 Kgs maximum per passenger) can travel in an ordinary case.

The requirement for ammo to be in a locked metal case and for it to travel in or separate from the rifle case is a requirement by the individual airline and is made according to how they handle the firearm once they take posession of it. Some airlines prefer the ammo to be in the same case because it makes it easier for the baggage handler and easier for them to keep track of firearm and ammo. Other airlines want it kept apart for various reasons. That requirement that the ammo be packed in a locked metal box is the most ridiculous thing ever, because by taking a flammable substance and containing it in metal box, you're actually making it a far greater risk than by not doing so........

Incidentally, the same order catagorises firearms into one of two classifications. Sporting weapons which they may carry and weapons of war, which they are forbidden to carry. A weapon of war is any calibre that has at any time ever been used as a military calibre anywhere in the world. - Sure it's as dumb as a sack of spanners, but that's the way it is..........

All that said, as much as I hate to acknowledge the fact, I can see a time coming when the airlines will simply refuse to carry any firearm or ammo at all.........

Thanks for the heads-up. Let's keep each other informed on this one. This is where the global anti-gun movement is headed now.
If they can't ban the guns, they'll render them useless by going after our ammo. The same people want to end all hunting. They haven't been successful there, so they'll just make it so difficult to travel to hunt that we'll stay home and take up golf.
Then, since we're no longer hunting, we don't really need a gun,do we.
Keep your eyes and ears peeled. This is a sneaky, insidious means of disarmament.

We have had our first hunter being refused to take ammo on board, but was allowed to bring his rifles. He was a Russian guy travelling with Egypt Air. Egypt Air is probably the last I would have guessed to do this!

As he used a 416 Rem, we could help him without notice.

John

What calibers will they be producing?

Johan,

Do you know what reason he was given by any chance?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

All airlines are bound by the Air Navigation Order, Carriage of Dangerous Goods act and that stipulates that the firearms travel in an unloaded condition, in a hard locked case and that ammo travel in the manufacturers packaging or other hard case that keeps every round separated from every other round. Legally, according to that act the ammo (5 Kgs maximum per passenger) can travel in an ordinary case.

IATA recommends passengers be limited to 5kg max, but its only a recommendation. They do require however, that there should be max 5kg ammo in each package. So if the airline would allow it, you could carry two packages with 5kg in each.

As one employee of a freight company (DHL IIRC) whose work entail shipping dangerous goods stated on IPSC Global Village:

quote:

On international flights all airlines have to follow the ICAO rules, IATA (which is not a governing body), thought the ICAO rules to be too lenient and adopted their own set of regulations - they are not law. If something would end up in a court of law it is the ICAO book that will be on the table, however most airlines and their employees see the IATA as law.

quote:

As I've said in earlier posts on this topic - we are up againt ignorence and prejudice when travelling to our matches. Yes there is an IATA recommendation of 5kgs / passanger. Most airlines see that as law, it is NOT. ICAO which is the law say max 5 kg / box, cartridges must be packed individually so that they can have no contact with each other during transport. The problem is that our ammunition fall under the Explosivs umbrella making it very hard to transport. followed by rules and regulations so far from common sence that top level politicians must have been involved in their makings.

Cardinal,

I hope you won't be offended when I tell you you're mistaken. IATA may recommend - however, the Air Navigation Order etc is international law and has been for many years. In that order, it stipulates a legal maximum of 5 kgs of ammo per passenger- It's also illegal under the same legislation for more than 1 x 5kgs package of ammo to be packed with another. - You can check both these requiremnents with the TSA and also by doing a Google search on the abovementioned act or by going through the links you'll find in the link at the bottom of this post.

Regarding your last two quotes - I'd like to clarify for other readers that they are not attributed to me - but you don't say who they are attributed to.

However, after a long debate on another forum, I emailed the TSA with the questions below. I assume you/he is/are referring to black powder because the quote refers to explosive, whereas smokeless is flammable and not explosive. Here's the question to the TSA:

Can black powder in any kind of packaging including metallic cartridge cases be carried on any commercial aircraft?

Can any black powder substitutes such as pyrodex etc in any kind of packaging including metallic cartridge cases be carried on any commercial aircraft?

Can any primers for black powder firearms such as pyrodex etc be carried on any commercial aircraft?

His reply was:

Dear Mr. Robinson:

Thank you for your electronic message dated October 6, 2008, asking a series of questions concerning the carriage of black powder and percussion caps in checked baggage. The answer to each of your questions is that Federal regulations prohibit these items in checked baggage aboard commercial aircraft.

Thank you for your inquiry, and I hope this information is helpful.
Sincerely yours,
Lee R. Kair
Assistant Administrator
Security Operations

You can find the whole story at the link below. I published about 20 links that confirm black powder, it derivitives and primers ar not permitted to be carried on commercial aircraft.

The real crux of the matter is that whilst smokeless powder is classified as flammable, which although being considered a hazardous material is permitted to travel on commercial aircraft, black powder etc is classified as explosive which is not permitted to travel. I would strongly advise anyone considering breaking the weight limit or trying to carry BP etc on an aircraft reconsider their position. Penalties are great and risks of accident could be considerably more serious.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php...65253/page/1/fpart/1

To save you trolling through a lot of argument on the other thread, you might just like to check out the links below. The wiki link is an example of what can happen some some idiot puts something aboard an aircraft that shouldn't be loaded.........

http://www.mynssa.com/image/downloads/firearm-transport.pdf
http://safetravel.dot.gov/index_ammunition.html
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/commerce/DangerousGoods/news/notices/15.htm
http://www.nysrpa.org/airportwarning.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ValuJet_Flight_592
http://www.cya.gov.tw/web/english/index.asp?strurl=homec5.html
http://www.wildlifenews.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildl...icle&articles_id=238
http://www.flyswiftair.com/BaggagePolicy.html
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&si...3.1.1.4.17.7&idno=32
http://www.tdc.ca/airsecurity.htm
http://www.firemarshal.wv.gov/Documents/EXPLOSIVES%20BLACK%20POWDER.pdf
http://www.delaus.ec.europa.eu/newzealand/eu_guide/faqs...hibited_articles.htm
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1188.shtm
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/uksi_20022786_en.pdf
http://www.hklii.org/hk/legis/en/reg/448C/s44.html
http://www.uk-legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_20073468_en_30
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1188.shtm
http://www.icao.int/icaonet/dcs/9284/9284_2007_2008_addcorr_en.pdf
http://www.kn-portal.com/fileadmin/_public/documents/do..._Glossary_711_V1.pdf
http://www.logisticstraining.com/Security/68fr-23831_interim.pdf
http://www.logisticstraining.com/Security/68fr-23831_interim.pdf
http://www.iftc.co.uk/Transport_of_Dangerous_Goods_by_Air.pdf

shakari,

The info came from those who deal with this for a living. And another who was a freight forwarder for 20+ years said the same thing.

It is also a FACT that IPSC shooters have on several occasions been allowed to carry more than 5 kg for international matches

IATA represents the AIRLINES and ICAO the lawmakers.
From ICAOs website: "Creating and modernizing SARPs is the responsibility of the International Civil Aviation Organization, or ICAO, the specialized agency of the United Nations whose mandate is to ensure the safe, efficient and orderly evolution of international civil aviation."
IATA: "IATA is an international trade body, created some 60 years ago by a group of airlines. Today, IATA represents some 230 airlines comprising 93% of scheduled international air traffic. The organisation also represents, leads and serves the airline industry in general. "

Cardinal,

Nevertheless, they're wrong. IPSC shooters may well have been allowed to exceed the limit, but again, nevertheless, I can assure you it wasn't legal. It looks to me as though they checked one or two sites but didn't research the subject thoroughly.

I spent many years working for a large international airline in many roles, including loadmaster and later security. I know the ANO and CDG act backwards and forwards and still have enough contacts to be able to pick up a phone and call the very top people in the aviation industry to check current facts........ I don't think I'm right, I know I'm right. If you doubt my words, check the links or e-mail the TSA yourself or read the entire 24HCR thread.

Hope I haven't offended you.

In fact, they're so wrong they think their ammo which as IPSC shooters is smokeless and therefore clssified as flammable is actually explosive which is a different category completely.

My expectation is after this last election there will soon be severe restrictions placed on any transportation of ammunition in the US. Not a ban but as shakari noted there will just be more and more regulations and burdens placed on the carriers to the point that it will become non profitable to handle it at all.

A friend of mine that is in a sherrifs department told me that the feds had indicated that with the next major terrorist attack one of the safety measures that would be taken would be an immediate "temporary" nation wide freeze on the purchace and transportation a fire arms and ammunition by any one other than law enforcement and the military.

The bottom line is that I sincerely hope that I am wrong but I think that if you want to travel and hunt and you have the chance now is the time to do it. Tommorrow my be toooooo late for a lot of reasons.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
In fact, they're so wrong they think their ammo which as IPSC shooters is smokeless and therefore clssified as flammable is actually explosive which is a different category completely.

no they dont think that. If you re-read the quote, they specifically stated its classified as an explosive. (class 1.4)

We'll have to agree to disagree.

btw until the US conquers the rest of the world, I don't really give a damn what the TSA says. They only have jurisdiction within the US.
No offense meant


Edit: IATA is a trade organization. They make rules for their members.
ICAOs Convention on International Civil Aviation, Annex 18 is what MUST be followed. IATAs rules are what the members agree to, but are not law.

For example, Alaskan Airlines allows 50lbs of ammo on domestic flights

Johan,
the ammo is being manufactured by PMP, and is called African Elite.
Only 4 calibers are being produced at this stage;
308 Win - 180gr
30-06 - 180gr
300 Win Mag - 200gr
375 H&H - 300gr

All using Swift bullets.

Cardinal,

My point was that when your friend/guy you quoted referred to smokeless powder as explosive, he was wrong. - It's not classified as explosive, it's classified as flammable or highly flammable.

Assuming you're a reloader, take a look at your pots of smokeless powder and you'll see they're labelled as flammable or highly flammable not as explosive or high explosive. Pots of black powder and substitutes are labelled as explosive or high explosive. (The UN rate it as high explosive) If you're not a reloader ask someone here to check the labelling on their powder.

Your comment about the Americans and the TSA doesn't offend me at all........ esp as I'm British by birth and English by the grace of God. - I guess we both made the mistake of thinking the other was from the the States.

You might also like to (especially) check the bottom most link where it explains why requirements are the same worldwide and also the carriage of ammunition and it's weight limitations etc. It also explains that ICAO give instructions for how dangerous goods can be stored and carried.

Of course, we could if you prefer, just agree to disagree.

If push comes to shuve and they stop the transport of ammo there is Magnum arms in Nelspruit that has a lisence to sell reloaded ammo. Im sure Eugene can load your favourite load for you with the bullets you use for your SA hunt Ill ask him when i see him again

all of this crap is why i no longer travel with a firearm- it's just a helluve lot easier to use a camp rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
all of this crap is why i no longer travel with a firearm- it's just a helluve lot easier to use a camp rifle.

I agree and it seems more and more hunters feel the same way.

That's great, but how many camp rifles are left-handed with a 12 1/4" length of pull?!!

Not to highjack the thread (or bust up the argument ) but can one ship ammunition via airfreight? If so then does the 5 kilo rule apply?
Rich Elliott