Re: The better DGR cartridge

28 June 2004, 05:19

ASS_CLOWN

jaycocreek,

According to the simulations I can get 1551 fps out of the 444 Marlin with with a 475 HCFP bullet with ~ 39 grains of IMR3031, and keep the pressure to 42,500 CUP.

Interestly enough, the 45-70 loaded with a 540 gr HCFP to 1550 fps also yields a pressure of ~ 42,500 CUP.

So, it appears feasible.

With these bullet weights and muzzle velocities the 444 Marlin has a ~ 3% "momentum density" advantage, which suggests it will out-penetrate the 45-70. Since penetration seem to be of paramount importance when hunting dangerous game, at least it seems to be the hottest topic here at AR, this ~ 3% momentum density advantage will make the 444 Marlin superior to the 45-70 for the purposes of taking dangerous game.

ASS_CLOWN

28 June 2004, 05:24

ASS_CLOWN

Smallfry,

I do not understand this statement of yours:

Quote:

Quite frankly they both can penetrate but just take to damn long to kill

If the heart or CNS is destroyed, the animal is DEAD. I fail to see the difference if these areas are destroyed by a 475 grain, .429" diameter projectile going 1550 fps or by a 0.416" diameter projectile of 400 grains going 2400 fps.

ASS_CLOWN

28 June 2004, 05:31

500grains

Quote:

If the heart or CNS is destroyed, the animal is DEAD. I fail to see the difference if these areas are destroyed by a 475 grain, .429" diameter projectile going 1550 fps or by a 0.416" diameter projectile of 400 grains going 2400 fps.

ASS_CLOWN

You should go shoot some game then report back.

28 June 2004, 05:41

ASS_CLOWN

but Dan, I have. I find that the Hard Cast flat point bullet suffers from the same issue as ALL "solid" style bullets. It is the same reason that the Hague Convention (or is it the Geneva I can't remember for sure) mandates the use of FMJ for military applications against personnel ( minimal tissue trauma aka to wound not to kill )

I still say that the 444 Marlin is a better dangerous game round than the 45-70!

ASS_CLOWN

28 June 2004, 06:41

gerald416

500 grains:

I kinda like the 38/55 myself. Of course, to make sure, the 44/40 would be better.

28 June 2004, 07:07

HenryC470

Quote:

First let me say I am assuming that both of the cartridges would be used in the same type of rifle. Having stated that, which would be a better cartridge for Dangerous Game, and why?

1.) 45-70
2.) 444 Marlin

Naturally, both cartridges would be loaded with the heaviest, hard cast flat points, that would achieve a muzzle velocity of 1550 - 1700 fps from the respective cartridge.

Thanks for your thoughts,

ASS_CLOWN...

I'd say you're better off with the 444, though not with the heaviest bullets. Since leopard is the only member of the big 5 that either of these cartridges is suitable for, you'll want flat shooting, accuracy, and good energy transfer to the animal.

Not that your choice would make either cartridge a dangerous game cartridge. If you had the money for a dangerous game hunt, you'd have the money to buy yourself a real dangerous game rifle, and you wouldn't be worrying about which of two other rifles (you also don't own) to hunt with. My recommendation is that you get yourself a job, because that's how you get the money to go hunting.

Now, I know that more elephant and rhino are killed with the 7.62x39 than any other cartridge, but that is not dangerous game hunting, that's poaching. An elephant, rhino, or buffalo at 150 yards is not dangerous to the poacher, so the poacher doesn't need to have a real dangerous game rifle. Heck, he'd do well enough with a 45-70 or a 444.

H. C.

28 June 2004, 07:51

woli

Ass_Clown,
you`re beating a dead horse with that question. Just try to use the search function and you`ll find all the answers you want!

Instead of sitting at your computer and comparing theoretical data of some handloads, why don`t you pick up one of those calibers and go on your own money (and your own RISK! Not at your PH`s risk!) and find it out yourself? We all would be very pleased to hear the results! (...if you would survive...)

I`m a big fan of my Marlin 45-70, but DG with a caliber like that, indifferent of bullet or load, is possible, but a STUNT for the average hunter. I personally would use my gun only in a life or death situation, and then every gun is better than none. If I had the opportunity for a hunt on DG, I`d choose something different. The search function on AR is helpful in this case too!!!

Greetings

Wolfgang

28 June 2004, 10:11

BFaucett

28 June 2004, 09:35

ASS_CLOWN

Woli,

Now why would I me putting my life more at risk if I use a 444 Marlin or a 45-70, than say a 375 H&H loaded with solids?

ASS_CLOWN

28 June 2004, 10:28

Atkinson

ASS CLOWN,

You certainly are agrivating, however your not a Trol in the since of most trols, I will give you that, there is a certain amount of knowledge that leaks out of you from time to time the draws my respect, but you do have a way about you that makes me listen, but your sometimes wrong as your WERE on the 375 as I was a half grain under "book max", dummy!

28 June 2004, 11:39

smallfry

Quote:

If the heart or CNS is destroyed, the animal is DEAD. I fail to see the difference if these areas are destroyed by a 475 grain, .429" diameter projectile going 1550 fps or by a 0.416" diameter projectile of 400 grains going 2400 fps.
ASS_CLOWN

Your absolutely correct of course, however you are representing only ideal conditions, heart shots come by as a luxury for me, but maybe not for others.

28 June 2004, 11:45

ASS_CLOWN

Ray,

All you say about me, may well be true, but your load in that 375 wasn't "mild" it was "near max"

I still say the 444 Marlin is a BETTER dangerous game cartridge than the 45-70!

Bob, I like the one smiley face hitting the other smiley face with a rock, reminds me of my kids!

Smallfry,
With at least 3' of penetration the 444 Marlin will reach the heart on all by the rear oblique, which is a first shot that SHOULDN'T be taken anyway.

ASS_CLOWN

29 June 2004, 00:23

woli

You`re surely right with the .444!!! You need only to go to proof it!!!

I`ll hear from you, or read about you...

You are simply a person I can`t contradict, I`ll approve ALL your future statements as well, so I don`t even need to read them!!! THAT`S really time-saving...

Greetings

Wolfgang

29 June 2004, 01:39

RangerBob

A couple definitions might be in order.

The first is "dangerous game". Is this term confined to the big five, or does it extend to any game animal that can hurt you? If it only means cape buffalo, elephant, rhino, and hippo, a good case can be made that the 45-70 and .444 are inadequate. But if we include the leppard, cougar, bear, jaguar, ect., we might conclude that either cartridge could be usefull. The question is: what is "dangerous game" and are we all working off the the same definition?

The second point is that ***Clown asked which was "better", not which was an ideal cartridge. A 22 Hornet is a lousy deer cartidge, but is "better" than a 22 Short. I don't care for hunting deer with a .243, prefering a 30-06, but I can see that it could be adequate in some situations. I don't think ***Clown asked a dumb question, but rather asked a question that he knew would raise the ire of the natives.

Last point: ***Clown, I think you are right about being able to achieve the balistics you quote, but I don't think you can do it in any available factory rifle. A bullet that big will either make for a OAL that will not cycle, or you will have to seat it VERY deep. To use that bullet, you would need a strong single shot, or a Win 1886, or some other long action. You would also need to check the rate of twist, as most .444's would not have a fast enough twist to stabilize a bullet that heavy. In the end, the increase in SD over a 45-70 will be negligible.

29 June 2004, 04:11

500grains

Scott, I suggest that you conduct a rigorous scientific experiment.

1. Choose the type of bullet that you want to use - the same type and similar sectional density for both calibers please. For example, if you choose a 350 grain lead flat nose bullet in the 444, choose a 400 grain lead flat nose bullet in the 45-70.

2. Second, work up to a safe, relatively high velocity load using the chosen bullet in each.

3. Arrange a wild hog hunt with Ann Horsman since she knows where to hunt hogs within driving distance of your house.

4. Shoot 3 pigs with each of the .444 and 45-70 with the chosen bullets and loads. Have a friend video each shoot. Take notes right after shooting each pig noting where it was hit, the pig's reaction, how far it travelled, how long it lived. Perform an autopsy on each pig and take photos and notes of the depth of penetration, the size of the wound channel, and the organs and bones hit.

5. Write a detailed report with photos and video clips.

6. Ask Nickudu to post it in the Nickudu files for all to see.

Only then will we know whether the .444 or 45-70 is a better hog gun.

29 June 2004, 07:25

RangerBob

To which natives do you refer:

1.) The classic big bore only fans

2.) The 45-70 fanatics

Well, I was thinking about #1, but I suppose that #2 is a good answer as well. Were you intending one or the other?

I don't own either, so I have no dog in this one.

BTW, What .444 will you use to shoot the big bullet load?

29 June 2004, 06:17

ASS_CLOWN

RangerBob,

Quote:

I don't think ***Clown asked a dumb question, but rather asked a question that he knew would raise the ire of the natives

To which natives do you refer:

1.) The classic big bore only fans

2.) The 45-70 fanatics

Dan,

Your suggestion is very good. I think we should take it a step further though and include the 416 Remington and 416 Rigby. Then we should be able to shift the BS out of all the ridiculous arguments!

ASS_CLOWN