50-140 3-1/4 for dangerous game?

07 October 2003, 11:06

Gonzo FreakPower

I had my first experience with this cartridge over the weekend, loaded with a 600gr cast bullet and 140gr of blackpowder. Judging from my shoulder today I think it would be an interesting option in a double rifle.

But that depends, can you load jacketed bullets and smokeless powder with this shell in a purpose-built double? Or are there ultra-hard cast bullets that would behave like a solid jacketed bullet? I think 140gr of blackpowder should suffice in either case, but smokeless is easier for me to work with.

Please clarify the rules on this. I'm not sure if blackpowder is ok with jacketed bullets.

07 October 2003, 11:22

Brent

I'm not at all sure WHY you would have a double built in the caliber. If you are going to have a custom gun made, a "traditional" caliber would be much more appropriate. But that said, can you use jacketed bullets with bp? I really don't know but suspect that the fouling and jacket would not mix well. There is really no point to mixing the technologies however. If you are going to go at bp velocities then lead is perfect, you do not need, nor even really want copper, imo.

Can you cast super hard lead? Of course, but if you do not do it right it will shatter. Hard lead is not everything. You might look into what people that shot 450 and 500 bpe's used. They knew what they were doing and nothing has changed since then. I would guess that something like 20:1 lead:tin or maybe 15:1. There are methods of tempering lead too. You need strength, not hardness in any event. I believe you will find that Paul Matthews mentions something about the historical use of lead bullets on African game. He is not an Africa hunter but rather someone that researched this a bit for his many books on black powder cartridge rifles.

Brent

07 October 2003, 11:49

leo-too

The velocity might not be particularly great but with hardcast bullets I'd bet it would penetrate well enough for buffalo. You're talking too much money in a double, do a single shot.

07 October 2003, 11:57

Art S.

Whether it's economically wise or not is one question. I will say, however, that a double so chambered would be just as or more effective than a .500 Nitro express. You simply have to compare case volume and bullet diameter. With BP, it would be as or more effective than a .500 BP round. In a modern gun with smokeless and premium bullets, it would be more effective than the .500 Nitro Express. There's no magic attached to one or the other. The biggest hammer wins. If you try to sell the .50 140, you will likely lose half your investment.

07 October 2003, 15:12

Gonzo FreakPower

Thanks for the advice so far. I can see the point about a double being too expensive. How about a Ruger #1? Great thing about the single shots, no limit on cartridge length.

What I meant by "hard" bullets was "bullets of suitable toughness and strength." I know that "hard" easily becomes "brittle." Can cast bullets be made tough enough for use on dangerous game, given BP velocities?

I've been captivated by blackpowder I guess. Seems like a very traditionalist thing to do.

07 October 2003, 17:32

Dave James

Gonzo, I don't remember the formula, but the old timers used to melt a little silver into their lead to harden the bullet / round ball a bit more, I have done the same thing with my 8bore, just playing with adding a bit here and there.

How heavy was the 140 you were shooting? The Sharpes I had was 13lbs, and it would set you back some with the full load

08 October 2003, 00:27

jeffeosso

Gonzo,
attempt to recover a bullet or 10 from a sandbank..... you might be surprised....
(do not use this load data)
I am shooting a 600gr, 115gr triple 7, and getting 1420~fps... and it didn't penetrate 6" into dry sand.... the lead was too soft....

jeffe

08 October 2003, 01:47

Brent

quote:
Originally posted by Gonzo FreakPower:
[QB]What I meant by "hard" bullets was "bullets of suitable toughness and strength." I know that "hard" easily becomes "brittle." Can cast bullets be made tough enough for use on dangerous game, given BP velocities?QB]

The simple answer to that is yes of course. It has been done too many times to count. Both historically and currently with people using muzzle loaders and bpc rifles.

Brent

08 October 2003, 06:35

<rossi>

Several smokeless and hardcast or jacketed versions have been done on the 50-3 1/4 Sharps. The only limiting factor for using smokeless is the firearm itself. Many have been built on the Ruger No. 1 and several on Thompson TCR83s, both of which will handle the chamber pressure quite nicely. In all essence a smokeless and jacketed spitting 50-3 1/4 Sharps offers nothing in killing power over the traditional 500 Nitro Express. Both would typically be configured with a .510" bore and both would deliver quite a wallop.

Interestingly, the same case dimensions of the 50-3 1/4 Sharps apply to the creation of the 510 Nitro Express cartridge. This is essentially a 50-3 1/4 Sharps case done in modern brass for smokeless and jacketed solid loads. See the website below for the history and some terminal performance figures. Again, it is no more than a 50-3 1/4 Sharps smokeless.

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w510nitro.html

08 October 2003, 06:49

500grains

The old black powder American cartridges are a poor choice for thick skinned dangerous game. Velocities are comparitively low, and cast bullets either moosh or shatter. If you want a Ruger No. 1, it is easy enough to build one in 500 nitro express and load it down if the recoil is too much for every day use. It will also have a lot more resale value than the other route.

If you must have a double in a Sharps caliber, here is a used one in 45-120 for just $4800:

http://www.hallowellco.com/double.htm

It's been for sale for a couple of years with no takers. If it were in 470 nitro, it would have been long gone ages ago.

08 October 2003, 07:16

Atkinson

If I was using a Ruger #1, then I'd use a better suited caliber....The combination of very low velocity and a hard cast bullet might kill a Cape Buffalo, but it will take a while to do it and he can do a lot in that time....

The Cape Buffalo is a brave fine animal and one should use an accepted caliber to hunt them...or your PH will end up killing your buffalo for you...If that gun will churn up about 5000 pounds of energy,with a 300 to 400 gr. bullet at 2100 FPS and/or have a sectional density of .300 then your fine...If not then its a trick....Add to all this your shooting a single shot..

I will never understand the desire to shoot a fine animal with a underpowered gun, just to prove a point...I have seen the results of poor shooting and underpowered guns and its not pretty...but this type of thread has been run into the ground around here...

08 October 2003, 10:18

Gonzo FreakPower

Given the comments above I will not pursue this idea any further. It is not my intention to shoot at game, dangerous or otherwise, with a marginal tool. I only wanted to determine whether the 50-140 would be a good idea.

Besides it being marginal, it's also very expensive. Those two make it purely a curiosity. Thanks for all the input. I'll be looking into a bolt action 458WinMag with a 1/4" extra chamber instead.