Force majeure

17 January 2025, 21:32

Bull Sprig

Force majeure

Apropos of the other thread being closed, I find the bold portion of this quote taken directly from a safari outfitter's website fascinating. Especially in the context of being a hunter who aspires to hunt Africa at some point.

Force Majeure, (meaning acts of God, explosion, floods, tempest, fire or accident, war, threat of war, sabotage, insurrection, civil disturbance, government intervention, weather conditions or other untoward occurrences). Any Government decision in regards to Michel Mantheakis Safaris Ltd is considered Force Majeure in this context. In the event of Force Majeure, the company is entitled to vary or cancel any itinerary or arrangement. Although all endeavors shall be made to reimburse you, refunds are solely to the discretion of the company.

17 January 2025, 22:20

Saeed

Does declaring yourself bankrupt become part of this FORCE MAJEURE??

17 January 2025, 22:32

Michael Robinson

We cannot perform, so we'll make all endeavors to reimburse you, but at the same time we'll keep your money if we decide in our sole discretion to do so?

That language is a contradiction in terms and is neither reasonable nor acceptable.

18 January 2025, 00:24

Bull Sprig

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Does declaring yourself bankrupt become part of this FORCE MAJEURE??

I guess that depends if an "explosion" caused your bankruptcy.

18 January 2025, 01:11

medved

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Does declaring yourself bankrupt become part of this FORCE MAJEURE??

what you did ....

18 January 2025, 01:32

MJines

Must be a similar clause in the Ibi and Baldry contract . . . and in their discretion refunds are just selectively paid to some of Baldry's clients . . . using another client's money.

18 January 2025, 03:00

Michael Robinson

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
Must be a similar clause in the Ibi and Baldry contract . . . and in their discretion refunds are just selectively paid to some of Baldry's clients . . . using another client's money.

Once again you are wrongly using the plural and dragging Andrew into it when only Ibi was a party to the contract and controlled the terms including the handling of the deposit.

You are worse than a rabid dog on a mailman's ankle.

Unbelievable.

But back to the point of this thread - the language in question is far too broad in exculpating the outfitter.

If governmental action prevents the hunt and the government takes all or any portion of the client's money, that's one thing; but if the client's money is in the possession of the outfitter and it's within his power to refund it, that’s another thing entirely.

IMHO, the outfitter should be willing to clarify this in the contract.

And even though force majeure should not include bankruptcy, make no mistake about it. If the outfitter goes bankrupt, the client is screwed in any case.

18 January 2025, 05:11

Saeed

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
Must be a similar clause in the Ibi and Baldry contract . . . and in their discretion refunds are just selectively paid to some of Baldry's clients . . . using another client's money.

What clauses are included in the SUCCESSFUL ENTERPRENEURS bankruptcy filing state how many FREE safaris he takes after cheating 542,000 dollars off innocent people?

And how much do the CROOKED lawyers get?

18 January 2025, 05:41

medved

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
Must be a similar clause in the Ibi and Baldry contract . . . and in their discretion refunds are just selectively paid to some of Baldry's clients . . . using another client's money.

What clauses are included in the SUCCESSFUL ENTERPRENEURS bankruptcy filing state how many FREE safaris he takes after cheating 542,000 dollars off innocent people?

And how much do the CROOKED lawyers get?

i think 2025 will be the year of real entrepreneurship ... the cme way ...

18 January 2025, 06:39

Saeed

Well, in California you can rob a store and security not allowed to interfere!

Corey stated successful people like him go bankrupt as a routine matter to go on safari!

What we like to know is how much do the enablers get?

You know, the ones you see their advertisements on TV nonstop!

18 January 2025, 06:49

lavaca

Ya'll miss the meaning of a Force Majeure clause. It's common, in most, if not all, commercial contracts.

Let me start by saying that I've hunted with Michel Mantheakis for nearly 20 years without what I would consider a bad experience. However, you also need to have experience with Tanzania. One year, some years back, after the conventions when all the outfitters booked their hunts and entered into their contracts with hunters, the Tanzanian government decided to double the trophy fees retroactively. From the perspective of the Tanzanian government, wealthy hunters from UAE, Europe, Russia and the US have an unlimited source of money and they didn't foresee a problem, but obviously that was a problem for a lot of folks, particularly the outfitters who had quoted trophy fees based on what the government had previously announced. That is unanticipated government action.

I went anyway, but there is no way that I could have expected the outfitter to hold to the previously quoted trophy fees when the government unexpectedly raised the rate. Michel fought hard to get the government to rescind that and if I recall was successful.

Bankruptcy would not be a Force Majeure per se.
A Force Majeure would be something like COVID when it became impossible to fulfill a contract because no one could travel.

I had a trip booked for 2020 and obviously, it didn't happen. 2020 was a bust for all outfitters and it's a miracle that many survived. Michel just carried by deposit and I hunted in 2021.

You'll never find a more ethical outfitter than Michel Mantheakis, both in terms of ethical hunting, but also in terms of business practices. I'm hunting with him again this year.

18 January 2025, 07:04

Michael Robinson

quote:
Originally posted by lavaca:
Ya'll miss the meaning of a Force Majeure clause. It's common, in most, if not all, commercial contracts.

Let me start by saying that I've hunted with Michel Mantheakis for nearly 20 years without what I would consider a bad experience. However, you also need to have experience with Tanzania. One year, some years back, after the conventions when all the outfitters booked their hunts and entered into their contracts with hunters, the Tanzanian government decided to double the trophy fees retroactively. From the perspective of the Tanzanian government, wealthy hunters from UAE, Europe, Russia and the US have an unlimited source of money and they didn't foresee a problem, but obviously that was a problem for a lot of folks, particularly the outfitters who had quoted trophy fees based on what the government had previously announced. That is unanticipated government action.

I went anyway, but there is no way that I could have expected the outfitter to hold to the previously quoted trophy fees when the government unexpectedly raised the rate. Michel fought hard to get the government to rescind that and if I recall was successful.

Bankruptcy would not be a Force Majeure per se.
A Force Majeure would be something like COVID when it became impossible to fulfill a contract because no one could travel.

I had a trip booked for 2020 and obviously, it didn't happen. 2020 was a bust for all outfitters and it's a miracle that many survived. Michel just carried by deposit and I hunted in 2021.

You'll never find a more ethical outfitter than Michel Mantheakis, both in terms of ethical hunting, but also in terms of business practices. I'm hunting with him again this year.

Sorry, friend.

Mantheakis’s contract language, as quoted, goes far beyond anything you’ve described.

It’s simply unreasonable and unacceptable.

18 January 2025, 10:11

MJines

You will learn lavaca . . . there is a whole different perspective on AR of crooks and victims. Folks like Buzz and Mantheakis are crooks . . . folks like Baldry are innocent victims. Yes, I understand, it defies comprehension. In the words of Clayton Williams, just relax and enjoy it.

18 January 2025, 11:45

Saeed

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
You will learn lavaca . . . there is a whole different perspective on AR of crooks and victims. Folks like Buzz and Mantheakis are crooks . . . folks like Baldry are innocent victims. Yes, I understand, it defies comprehension. In the words of Clayton Williams, just relax and enjoy it.

Actually, I have never heard a bad word about Mantheakis.

And what was posted just now confirms that.

Buzz, on the other hand, didn’t need anyone to badmouth him.

He did it all by himself.

He screwed up, ROYALLY, twice.

And blamed everyone on AR for it.

And our bankrupt hero seems to have disappeared into thin air!

Or may be he is closed meetings with some crooked lawyer who does he cheat next?

After all, 542,000 only goes so far to provide African safaris.

What is it now, four safaris??

18 January 2025, 17:21

larryshores

People must not read these documents. Why would anyone sign that document?

18 January 2025, 17:43

Saeed

Glad I don’t have to sign anything!

Imagine how much I save the PH from paying one of the undesirables of humanity to prepare that agreement!

18 January 2025, 18:55

Bull Sprig

I didn't post this to shade the outfitter, I was just curious if this is the standard wording in all of these contracts.

18 January 2025, 22:37

dogcat

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
You will learn lavaca . . . there is a whole different perspective on AR of crooks and victims. Folks like Buzz and Mantheakis are crooks . . . folks like Baldry are innocent victims. Yes, I understand, it defies comprehension. In the words of Clayton Williams, just relax and enjoy it.

Actually, I have never heard a bad word about Mantheakis.

And what was posted just now confirms that.

Buzz, on the other hand, didn’t need anyone to badmouth him.

He did it all by himself.

He screwed up, ROYALLY, twice.

And blamed everyone on AR for it.

And our bankrupt hero seems to have disappeared into thin air!

Or may be he is closed meetings with some crooked lawyer who does he cheat next?

After all, 542,000 only goes so far to provide African safaris.

What is it now, four safaris??

No one blamed AR, everyone blamed you. You are the one that made a big deal about contracts and how you never sign anything and how your word is as good as gold. Well, everyone aint you. Buzz got hosed over a guy committing to a large quota, Buzz sourced it, then the guy did not shoot it or even close. So, Buzz institutes a policy of paying for quota to get protection from non shooters. Some outfits do this and others don't. It is a business decision. Buzz made it and the world collapse over it - at least the AR world did. You led the charge and defamation of one of the best outfits in Africa. Buzz later made the decision to not charge ahead of time, and again, you led the charge to beat on him and his outfit. Pathetic.

No one tells you how to run your website. No one tells you how to hunt or what contracts to sign - yet when Buzz instituted a business decision, you decided to have a run away and disparage one of the truly good guys out there. He left this website and we are worse off for it.

Most outfits have contracts that state terms and conditions. You hunt the same place every year, shoot the same quantity of animals and with the same outfit. I get it. You may not need a contract.

When I go, I want a contract that holds the outfitter and myself to what we agree on verbally. If it is good to say, then it is good to write down and sign.

You are living the past....

19 January 2025, 00:57

SCLawyer

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Glad I don’t have to sign anything!

Imagine how much I save the PH from paying one of the undesirables of humanity to prepare that agreement!

I apologize in advance if I am mistaken, but didn't I read somewhere on here that you (saaed) have a financial interest in the Tanzania concession you hunt on?

Again, perhaps I don't have the facts quite right.

Sincerely,

A proud undesirable of humanity.

19 January 2025, 01:00

the Pom

Have to agree with dogcat! CMS made perfectly logical and legal business decisions. I am hunting with them in August in Nyakasanga with the same absolute confidence in their integrity that I have when hunting with Andrew Baldry.

19 January 2025, 03:04

MARK H. YOUNG

The original topic was about what Michel's contract considered as part of the Force Majeure. Yeah! I get it but if your are offended or just don't want to trust the operator or just don't like the verbage don't book the hunt. It's that simple!

Michel is just trying to protect his business.

Mark

19 January 2025, 03:19

M.Shy

If I don’t sign contract in construction business I will not last
Also I wouldn’t sign contract if there is possible rope to hang me on
Everyone runs their business their own way

19 January 2025, 04:49

Bull Sprig

quote:
Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
The original topic was about what Michel's contract considered as part of the Force Majeure. Yeah! I get it but if your are offended or just don't want to trust the operator or just don't like the verbage don't book the hunt. It's that simple!

Michel is just trying to protect his business.

Mark

Did I say I was offended? I simply asked if that was the standard. It would appear he has an excellent reputation but that was never part of the question was it? Had I caught it before I posted it I would have removed his name.

19 January 2025, 04:52

M.Shy

AR majordomos in action
Don’t make them no never mind Bull Sprig

19 January 2025, 05:12

Saeed

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
quote:
Originally posted by lavaca:
Ya'll miss the meaning of a Force Majeure clause. It's common, in most, if not all, commercial contracts.

Let me start by saying that I've hunted with Michel Mantheakis for nearly 20 years without what I would consider a bad experience. However, you also need to have experience with Tanzania. One year, some years back, after the conventions when all the outfitters booked their hunts and entered into their contracts with hunters, the Tanzanian government decided to double the trophy fees retroactively. From the perspective of the Tanzanian government, wealthy hunters from UAE, Europe, Russia and the US have an unlimited source of money and they didn't foresee a problem, but obviously that was a problem for a lot of folks, particularly the outfitters who had quoted trophy fees based on what the government had previously announced. That is unanticipated government action.

I went anyway, but there is no way that I could have expected the outfitter to hold to the previously quoted trophy fees when the government unexpectedly raised the rate. Michel fought hard to get the government to rescind that and if I recall was successful.

Bankruptcy would not be a Force Majeure per se.
A Force Majeure would be something like COVID when it became impossible to fulfill a contract because no one could travel.

I had a trip booked for 2020 and obviously, it didn't happen. 2020 was a bust for all outfitters and it's a miracle that many survived. Michel just carried by deposit and I hunted in 2021.

You'll never find a more ethical outfitter than Michel Mantheakis, both in terms of ethical hunting, but also in terms of business practices. I'm hunting with him again this year.

Sorry, friend.

Mantheakis’s contract language, as quoted, goes far beyond anything you’ve described.

It’s simply unreasonable and unacceptable.

I wonder if anyone had seen TGT's contract!

Totally one sided!

19 January 2025, 06:23

Saeed

quote:
Originally posted by the Pom:
Have to agree with dogcat! CMS made perfectly logical and legal business decisions. I am hunting with them in August in Nyakasanga with the same absolute confidence in their integrity that I have when hunting with Andrew Baldry.

Might have been.

But when the proverbial shit hit the fan, they should have owned it.

Not blame everyone on AR for their stupid decisions!

19 January 2025, 06:25

Texas Blue Devil

quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
People must not read these documents. Why would anyone sign that document?

There are booking agents and outfitters with even worse language. I nearly booked a fairly expensive hunt last year but I refused to sign the Agent's ridiculously one-sided contract. These contracts put all the burden of performance on the hunter, and relieve the outfitter and agent from nearly everything.

What I think is funny,... is that people will say the stupidest things while trying to convince you to sign their bullshit contract. They will not alter their contract but they will say things like... "We have never had a problem with that". or "That clause would never REALLY come into play".

I am utterly amazed that people sign these contracts.

19 January 2025, 06:31

Saeed

quote:
Originally posted by dogcat:
quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
You will learn lavaca . . . there is a whole different perspective on AR of crooks and victims. Folks like Buzz and Mantheakis are crooks . . . folks like Baldry are innocent victims. Yes, I understand, it defies comprehension. In the words of Clayton Williams, just relax and enjoy it.

Actually, I have never heard a bad word about Mantheakis.

And what was posted just now confirms that.

Buzz, on the other hand, didn’t need anyone to badmouth him.

He did it all by himself.

He screwed up, ROYALLY, twice.

And blamed everyone on AR for it.

And our bankrupt hero seems to have disappeared into thin air!

Or may be he is closed meetings with some crooked lawyer who does he cheat next?

After all, 542,000 only goes so far to provide African safaris.

What is it now, four safaris??

No one blamed AR, everyone blamed you. You are the one that made a big deal about contracts and how you never sign anything and how your word is as good as gold. Well, everyone aint you. Buzz got hosed over a guy committing to a large quota, Buzz sourced it, then the guy did not shoot it or even close. So, Buzz institutes a policy of paying for quota to get protection from non shooters. Some outfits do this and others don't. It is a business decision. Buzz made it and the world collapse over it - at least the AR world did. You led the charge and defamation of one of the best outfits in Africa. Buzz later made the decision to not charge ahead of time, and again, you led the charge to beat on him and his outfit. Pathetic.

No one tells you how to run your website. No one tells you how to hunt or what contracts to sign - yet when Buzz instituted a business decision, you decided to have a run away and disparage one of the truly good guys out there. He left this website and we are worse off for it.

Most outfits have contracts that state terms and conditions. You hunt the same place every year, shoot the same quantity of animals and with the same outfit. I get it. You may not need a contract.

When I go, I want a contract that holds the outfitter and myself to what we agree on verbally. If it is good to say, then it is good to write down and sign.

You are living the past....

He posted he was leaving because AR members have complained about him charging a non refundable trophy fees and blurring clients faces.

I, and many others do object to non refundable trophy fees, and blurring faces.

Wimps who do not wish to have their faces shown while hunting should stay home, or not taking pictures and display them, cowardly, on Internet forums.

That screams I AM ASHAMED OF HUNTING!

I have no time for these people, nor for idiots who charge NON REFUNDABLE TROPHY FEES and when others object, they blame THEM!

Total lack of character!

19 January 2025, 06:35

lavaca

TGT? I heard the PH had to call in before you could shoot an animal. No thanks!

I had dinner with Michel and his wife on Thursday and met with them today to put the final touches on
this year's hunt. To give you an idea of how he operates, I was locked into dates and paid my deposit and while I had worked out an agreed docket control order with opposing counsel, the judge moved the trial date up a week and totally conflicted with my plan. Michel re-arranged his schedule to comply with my trial setting. Years ago, I had a 2 on 1 with my son with Michel and I'd signed a contract. My son backed out and I fully expected to honor my contract. Michel said no and I only paid for my hunt.

I don't sign contracts with Michel anymore either. He's always been more than fair.

19 January 2025, 06:42

lavaca

Agree with you Saeed. I have no problem showing my face with any animal I chose to take. But a lot of outfitters have gone to that because of the grief the greenies have given to hunters. They are only trying to protect their clients. Personally I'm not ashamed of the fact that I hunt and if someone has a problem with that, they can deal with me directly.

19 January 2025, 07:47

Saeed

quote:
Originally posted by SCLawyer:
quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Glad I don’t have to sign anything!

Imagine how much I save the PH from paying one of the undesirables of humanity to prepare that agreement!

I apologize in advance if I am mistaken, but didn't I read somewhere on here that you (saaed) have a financial interest in the Tanzania concession you hunt on?

Again, perhaps I don't have the facts quite right.

Sincerely,

A proud undesirable of humanity.

No I do not.

Never had, and never will be part of any concession in Africa.

I hunt as a client.

19 January 2025, 17:39

505 gibbs

quote:
You are the one that made a big deal about contracts and how you never sign anything and how your word is as good as gold. Well, everyone aint you. Buzz got hosed over a guy committing to a large quota, Buzz sourced it, then the guy did not shoot it or even close. So, Buzz institutes a policy of paying for quota to get protection from non shooters. Some outfits do this and others don't. It is a business decision. Buzz made it and the world collapse over it - at least the AR world did. You led the charge and defamation of one of the best outfits in Africa. Buzz later made the decision to not charge ahead of time, and again, you led the charge to beat on him and his outfit. Pathetic.

No one tells you how to run your website. No one tells you how to hunt or what contracts to sign - yet when Buzz instituted a business decision, you decided to have a run away and disparage one of the truly good guys out there. He left this website and we are worse off for it.

Most outfits have contracts that state terms and conditions. You hunt the same place every year, shoot the same quantity of animals and with the same outfit. I get it. You may not need a contract.

When I go, I want a contract that holds the outfitter and myself to what we agree on verbally. If it is good to say, then it is good to write down and sign.

True

19 January 2025, 21:12

fairgame

quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
quote:
You are the one that made a big deal about contracts and how you never sign anything and how your word is as good as gold. Well, everyone aint you. Buzz got hosed over a guy committing to a large quota, Buzz sourced it, then the guy did not shoot it or even close. So, Buzz institutes a policy of paying for quota to get protection from non shooters. Some outfits do this and others don't. It is a business decision. Buzz made it and the world collapse over it - at least the AR world did. You led the charge and defamation of one of the best outfits in Africa. Buzz later made the decision to not charge ahead of time, and again, you led the charge to beat on him and his outfit. Pathetic.

No one tells you how to run your website. No one tells you how to hunt or what contracts to sign - yet when Buzz instituted a business decision, you decided to have a run away and disparage one of the truly good guys out there. He left this website and we are worse off for it.

Most outfits have contracts that state terms and conditions. You hunt the same place every year, shoot the same quantity of animals and with the same outfit. I get it. You may not need a contract.

When I go, I want a contract that holds the outfitter and myself to what we agree on verbally. If it is good to say, then it is good to write down and sign.

True

I seem to remember when you hunted with me the contract was mostly a regurgitation of our correspondence and a handshake. I remember that long day hike after Roan only to get busted at dusk. The massive Bushpig and extraordinary Sable. Good times my friend.

20 January 2025, 04:46

Saeed

I wonder if Corey had a contract with Ibi??

And whether Corey had a contract with those he stole 542,000 from?

"Contracts" are written by lawyers!

Nothing else I can add to that I have not said before!

Toilet paper comes to mind!

20 January 2025, 05:12

MJines

. . . toilet paper is the deal Baldry sold . . . soiled . . . or maybe tissue paper would be more accurate. So much for Corey's "handshake" deal.

20 January 2025, 07:33

Saeed

Agreements are worthless if one of the parties signing them is a crook.

Only beneficiaries are crooked lawyers.

Win or lose.

They get paid!

We arrived at Pierre's camp.

He brought out an agreement.

Told him I don't sign agreements.

He laughed, and we shook hands.

End of story.

Can someone please post a copy of the agreement Corey had with Ibi and the innocent people he robbed off 542,000 from?

20 January 2025, 08:09

MJines

What happened with Corey’s handshake with Baldry?

20 January 2025, 08:55

Saeed

Paragraph 11.

A SUCCESSFUL ENTERPRENEUR may, at his discretion, use the money owed to go on multiple African safaris.

His CROOKED attorney will take care of any court proceedings!

20 January 2025, 09:05

MJines

I guess since all you can do is deflect, you must agree, Baldry’s handshake isn’t worth spit. Or shit, in keeping with you your toilet paper reference.

20 January 2025, 09:24

lavaca

One big problem with safari contracts is choice of law and jurisdiction. You might get jurisdiction in the US if your outfitter came to the US and sold you the contract here, but you will have to serve them in their country should you try to sue them. That means determining if their country is a member of the Hague. If so get ready. You have to comply with the Hague, which means the complaint has to be officially translated into the official language, etc. Costs a lot. Then you have to get service of process in the other country. Costs a lot and it's easy to dodge service in other countries. They probably won't appear, but then you have to get a default judgment which doesnt' cost a whole lot, but then you have to try to collect.
Good luck and that does cost a lot. I've been through it with a Chinese company.

Given that your safari was probably $150,000 or less, it's not worth the effort.