Listen, I know there are big Buffalo grown and shot under a fence in RSA. But usually all you saw was a couple reports or advertisements a year. It seems like they are everywhere now and everyone is doing it. I don’t go a day without someone sending me pics of either herds of 40”+ bulls or guys in RSA with these beautiful 42,43,44” bulls (and by that I mean 1 guy, 1 trip and he got all three). Or groups of guys all on a 5 day buffalo hunt standing over a stack of buffalo skulls and not 1 is under 40”?

Nothing wrong with that.

Just like going to the supermarket and picking what you want!

I have shot quite a few buffalo.

All wild.

Biggest was a 49 with one broken horn.

A few 45-46 and more 44.

Funny enough never shot a 47 or 48??

To me, a real trophy is an old one with worn horns!

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Listen, I know there are big Buffalo grown and shot under a fence in RSA. But usually all you saw was a couple reports or advertisements a year. It seems like they are everywhere now and everyone is doing it. I don’t go a day without someone sending me pics of either herds of 40”+ bulls or guys in RSA with these beautiful 42,43,44” bulls (and by that I mean 1 guy, 1 trip and he got all three). Or groups of guys all on a 5 day buffalo hunt standing over a stack of buffalo skulls and not 1 is under 40”?

I was at a dinner a couple years ago and there was a husband & wife who’d recently returned from a South African hunt. They were showing everyone pictures of the large pile of game they’d shot, including a couple very big buffalo. Both were mid-forties in spread, long un-broomed tips and looked like they’d just left a hair salon. They were clean to the point they looked like they’d never been in mud in their lives. No tattered ears, no gray face, nothing to indicate they’d lived like all the other buffalo I’ve seen. I commented that they looked like they’d just been let out of the pen and, boy oh boy, did that ever set the wife off! She told me how difficult the hunts were since it took her husband ALL DAY the first day to shoot his and took her three days to finally get her buffalo and how they shot less other game because of it. I suggested they should try hunting buffalo elsewhere next time and the response was priceless…. “Why? We don’t want to be like you, hunting twice as long, spending twice as much and shooting half of what we shot”.

I figured it was a waste of time trying to enlighten them, so simply said that they were wrong because while I only hunt twice as many days I spend more than double what they did and shot less than half of what they did, but I went hunting, not shooting. Then I walked away. As I was leaving the wife called out “and you’ve probably never shot a buffalo as big as ours!”

The game breeders are actively working to get large buff and other animals. There are some massive buff being bred. I was just on a farm where they had a bull that was reported to be 57 inches wide. Perhaps the widest bull alive.

On instagram there are adverts from game farms with incredible looking an.

Including all sorts of inbred creatures I have never seen before!

My biggest is a 48” bull from Tanzania.

If you are in the right place it is possible with wild buffalo to fill your license with mid 40’s buffalo. Been there, done that more than once.

I have never hunted buffalo in RSA, or in a pen. I have been around them in RSA, and not all buffalo in RSA are game farm animals.

That being said, I really don’t care if they shoot a bigger bull than I do, and they walk up to a feeder and kill it with a captive bolt gun… while I may think they are missing out on a wonderful experience, they did what they wanted to. It really isn’t “safe” regardless of how controlled the setting as shown by the other thread where a Texas hunter was killed by a buffalo in RSA.

Also, I have had folks look at my buffalo mounts- my first buffalo was 38”… and ask me “which is the biggest of them?” So I do think folks get a bit confused when they think an extra inch or two of horn is some sort of status item.

I’m not sure why people get worked up about it. I certainly don’t see the value on denegrating another Hunter’s sport. Personally, I think a behind the wire buffalo shot in RSA had a more natural and fulfilling existence than any of the domestic animals we all eat.

Guys,

I had a conversation recently with the owner of an ammo company at the range. He knew quite a bit about rifles and he showed me some realy spendy one's. As the conversation progressed it became obvoius that he had done a lot of hunting. He told me he was taking his recently college graduated son on buffalo as a graduation present. When I enquired as to where they would hunt I was expecting it to be some real wild place. No! He was going to RSA. I felt notably deflated. To me a guy that can afford to hunt anywhere has no reason to hunt buffalo in RSA other than they want it to be shoot.

Mark

Mark, how about travel distance, comfort with the government system, knowing the operator, timing/time frame, and comfort at the camp?

Again, I agree the kid is going to miss out on a wilderness experience, but why they chose to hunt in RSA on a ranch is their choice. You certainly could have asked why he chose the RSA hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Guys,

I had a conversation recently with the owner of an ammo company at the range. He knew quite a bit about rifles and he showed me some realy spendy one's. As the conversation progressed it became obvoius that he had done a lot of hunting. He told me he was taking his recently college graduated son on buffalo as a graduation present. When I enquired as to where they would hunt I was expecting it to be some real wild place. No! He was going to RSA. I felt notably deflated. To me a guy that can afford to hunt anywhere has no reason to hunt buffalo in RSA other than they want it to be shoot.

Mark

The buffalo hunted in the APNRs surrounding Kruger National Park are RSA buffalo that must certainly qualify as wild. Perhaps there are other similar situations in RSA?

if buffalo or other game is hunted inside a 250,000 acre perimeter fence, from a self-sustaining herd, is that a wild buffalo?

While they are selectively breeding, can they get some color variations? My buffalo are all boringly the same color. I'd like a white buffalo, a copper buffalo, well you get the idea. Joking guys. I've never hunted South Africa and never will.

I have no doubt there are free range buffalo to be had in RSA, and plenty of fenced buffalo that for all intents and purposes give the effect of free range. I am asking about something different, I’m talking about clients that go and shoot 40” Buffalo (or several) everytime in a 5-7 day hunt (most killed on the first day). It reminds me of the whitetail hunting here in the states (particularly Texas). A group of men go for a weekend hunt and everyone shoots a 200” deer. These are animals that people hunt their entire lives and never see. Just seems to be becoming the preferred Buffalo hunt.

The biggest buff I ever shot was in a truly wild area (in Zimbabwe) on the first day 5 minutes out of camp. It can happen anywhere. That is not the only easy buffalo I have taken in a truly wild area. It does happen.

I have hunted a lot of buffalo. 57 to be exact . Of those 3 came from the RSA. Of those 3, two were not very hard . The other was taken after 18 miles of tracking .


I think the 2 easy buff were blind luck. It was not the equivalent of shooting fish in a barrel.

We should not generalize all RSA buff hunts . All RSA buff hunts are not the same . I do not dispute that there MIGHT be some that are not sporting . However , they are not all that way .

How does one classify “sporting”?

My biggest buffalo, 49, was seen from the truck as we were driving to a leopard blind.

Jumped out of the truck, and a few minutes later it was dead!

Not very sporting in the real sense.

For me, not hunting buffalo or lion in South Africa is purely mental.

I mentally know I am on a FARM!

Fine for plains game though.

Some might not understand this.

I shot my first two cape buffalo on my first safari in 2017 in South Africa. Was it a canned hunt or easy hunt? No. Was it a wild hunt on a million acre conservancy? No.

It was my first experience of Africa and it was a positive experience. Will I hunt cape buffalo in South Africa again? Probably not. I don't disparage it, but I want a different experience (whether that's truly physical or mental) next time around. My only regret of those two is that the bull was young. The next one will be very, very old, and I will be very, very selective about the character of age. Inches and record book position mean nothing to me, despite having entered all of my trophies into SCI's Record Book and being a Master Measurer for their system.

quote:

Originally posted by Brandon.Gleason:
I shot my first two cape buffalo on my first safari in 2017 in South Africa. Was it a canned hunt or easy hunt? No. Was it a wild hunt on a million acre conservancy? No.

It was my first experience of Africa and it was a positive experience. Will I hunt cape buffalo in South Africa again? Probably not. I don't disparage it, but I want a different experience (whether that's truly physical or mental) next time around. My only regret of those two is that the bull was young. The next one will be very, very old, and I will be very, very selective about the character of age. Inches and record book position mean nothing to me, despite having entered all of my trophies into SCI's Record Book and being a Master Measurer for their system.

Well stated. Truly wild Buffalo are generally hard to hunt, and for me, the tracking of a wise old animal over a period of time is true sport.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Listen, I know there are big Buffalo grown and shot under a fence in RSA. But usually all you saw was a couple reports or advertisements a year. It seems like they are everywhere now and everyone is doing it. I don’t go a day without someone sending me pics of either herds of 40”+ bulls or guys in RSA with these beautiful 42,43,44” bulls (and by that I mean 1 guy, 1 trip and he got all three). Or groups of guys all on a 5 day buffalo hunt standing over a stack of buffalo skulls and not 1 is under 40”?

Not sure if this is the answer you looking for but my opinion is that the the buffalo (and sable) breeding programs started in the 80s and 90s have now led to an over supply of genetically superior animals to the market place. The price of these buffalo as breeding animals (cows and bulls) has come down significantly compared to 10-20 years ago.

In the live game market, the big money buffalo are now those over 50”+. Bulls around 40-44” are much more affordable and more and more landowners are able to purchase them. Hence, more big buffalo available to hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Brandon.Gleason:
I shot my first two cape buffalo on my first safari in 2017 in South Africa. Was it a canned hunt or easy hunt? No. Was it a wild hunt on a million acre conservancy? No.

It was my first experience of Africa and it was a positive experience. Will I hunt cape buffalo in South Africa again? Probably not. I don't disparage it, but I want a different experience (whether that's truly physical or mental) next time around. My only regret of those two is that the bull was young. The next one will be very, very old, and I will be very, very selective about the character of age. Inches and record book position mean nothing to me, despite having entered all of my trophies into SCI's Record Book and being a Master Measurer for their system.

Well stated. Truly wild Buffalo are generally hard to hunt, and for me, the tracking of a wise old animal over a period of time is true sport.

Just like whitetail and elk in the wild versus game ranches

quote:

Originally posted by MD375:

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Listen, I know there are big Buffalo grown and shot under a fence in RSA. But usually all you saw was a couple reports or advertisements a year. It seems like they are everywhere now and everyone is doing it. I don’t go a day without someone sending me pics of either herds of 40”+ bulls or guys in RSA with these beautiful 42,43,44” bulls (and by that I mean 1 guy, 1 trip and he got all three). Or groups of guys all on a 5 day buffalo hunt standing over a stack of buffalo skulls and not 1 is under 40”?

Not sure if this is the answer you looking for but my opinion is that the the buffalo (and sable) breeding programs started in the 80s and 90s have now led to an over supply of genetically superior animals to the market place. The price of these buffalo as breeding animals (cows and bulls) has come down significantly compared to 10-20 years ago.

In the live game market, the big money buffalo are now those over 50”+. Bulls around 40-44” are much more affordable and more and more landowners are able to purchase them. Hence, more big buffalo available to hunters.

to

That's exactly the answer.

Some of my toughest hunts for buff have been on game farms in SA some of my easiest hunts have been in wild places......I'm sure there are some canned hunts.... I haven't been on one, and I wont.

I have six friends from here hunting in South Africa right now.

They go there every year.

And love it.

They only hunt plains game.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Guys,

I had a conversation recently with the owner of an ammo company at the range. He knew quite a bit about rifles and he showed me some realy spendy one's. As the conversation progressed it became obvoius that he had done a lot of hunting. He told me he was taking his recently college graduated son on buffalo as a graduation present. When I enquired as to where they would hunt I was expecting it to be some real wild place. No! He was going to RSA. I felt notably deflated. To me a guy that can afford to hunt anywhere has no reason to hunt buffalo in RSA other than they want it to be shoot.

Mark

You felt notably deflated !
What about the RSA elephant/ buffalo hunts you advertise as genuine African experience ???

quote:

Originally posted by Dog Man:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Guys,

I had a conversation recently with the owner of an ammo company at the range. He knew quite a bit about rifles and he showed me some realy spendy one's. As the conversation progressed it became obvoius that he had done a lot of hunting. He told me he was taking his recently college graduated son on buffalo as a graduation present. When I enquired as to where they would hunt I was expecting it to be some real wild place. No! He was going to RSA. I felt notably deflated. To me a guy that can afford to hunt anywhere has no reason to hunt buffalo in RSA other than they want it to be shoot.

Mark

You felt notably deflated !
What about the RSA elephant/ buffalo hunts you advertise as genuine African experience ???

Sir…I believe you are confused.
1) RSA Elephant? Not much of a thing and are certainly not high fenced
2) don’t think Mark represented any RSA hunts for Buff nor Elephant

This is clearly about high fenced (normally large areas) Buff

If you have not experienced…RSA is generally VERY different compared to a wild tracking hunt.
Many times the buffalo in RSA are attracted to the vehicle like domestic cattle looking for protein pellets.

Typical hunt in South Africa.

Wake up for breakfast in a beautiful camp.

Proper stone buildings with girls serving breakfast.

You can order food a la carte, and the chef is more than happy to deliver.

The sun is up, and you drive out for your hunt.

Doesn’t take long before you see game.

Shoot what takes your fancy.

There is no limit on how many you can shoot, as long as your bank account can handle it.

By midday you are back at camp - sometimes earlier.

Food is available in many varieties like a 5 star restaurant.

Enjoy your lunch, have a nap.

Midd afternoon you head out to hunt.

A couple of hours later you are back in camp with whatever animal was on your list earlier.

Well before sun down.

A few drinks in the bar with hosts who leave nothing for you to desire.

They ask you what you wish to have for dinner, and deliver a most delicious meal.

You can stay up as long as you wish.

There is no demand to be ready well before sun up to drive in the dark trying to find an animal that might not be there.

This is repeated for as many days as you wish.

Then you go home a very happy man as you have gotten exactly what you came for.

Met new friends.

Certainly members of your party, for whatever reason, say THIS IS BEST HUNT I HAVE EVER HAD!

Despite the fact they are veterans of many safaris.

Now, compare this to hunting a wild area like Chete in Zimbabwe.

You fly into camp in 4 seater Cessnas.

As you look back on the second flight bringing the rest of your party. You see a dent in the tail plane!

No problem.

Plane lands safely.

Apparently your wild adventures have already started.

A vulture didn’t like you coming in, so tried to dive bomb the plane.

Luckily it did not aim properly and its lead of a fast moving plane was wrong!

You take a short drive to camp.

You are already sweating as the temperature is hovering around the magical 100F.

Cold drinks are served, from a fridge that runs on gas.

Ice is in limited supply.

Dinner is served from left over meat from a previous client.

You are in luck though, as you can sleep late.

Because you cannot go hunting until you site in your rifle.

Breakfast is a choice of eggs and toast.

Coffee and tea.

You might get a slice or two of some fruit.

Off to the range to zero your rifle.

That is done.

Of on your first day hunt.

Soon you see the tracks of buffalo bulls.

Off the truck and onto them.

You catch up with them in thickets where it is difficult to tell logs from rocks from buffalo.

Your PH says there they are and puts the shooting sticks up.

All you see part of a horn and half a head looking at you from 30 yards.

You ask your PH which way is he facing.

Your PH whispers I think to the right.

You aim where you think the chest is and fire!

All hell breaks loose and you run ahead.

As you get to where the buffalo was standing, you realize you are going to have a very very long day!

The buffal was facing to the left.

And what you thought where his chest was, was his neck.

Your shot went into the meaty part of the neck instead of the chest.

Hardly a scratch to a buffalo instead of being fatal.

You carry on tracking him all day.

Finally giving up late afternoon.

Your 4 small bottles of boiled lake water are long gone.

No food.

Your hunting party, your, PH, camera man, two trackers, a game scout and two new observers who wanted to experience buffalo hunting!

You walk back to the truck, and try to drink warm Coke and water.

You get back to camp.

Cold drinks.

You drink glass after glass, to replenish all the fluids you lost.

Temperature was 115F.

You have an early dinner.

Again, meat from a previous hunt.

Stew and rice.

You get to you cottage to sleep.

Windows and door open.

Heat is on, and no wind at all.

And trying to sleep.

You do.

Because of you tired.

And look forward to another adventure ne t day.

Your new friends have had enough buffalo experience.

So they are staying home while you head out to hunt.

Not long out of camp, you see buffalo tracks.

You start tracking them.

You end up in the middle of an elephant herd.

A cow takes it upon herself to chase you screaming at the top of her voice.

All your party scattering directions.

When all noise dies down, you all gather together.

All smiles!

And one individual has bloody legs.

Apparently your tracker, who was carrying the shooting sticks, was trying his best to set anew world record in running.

He looks back and sees this fellow giving him a good run for his money.

That won’t do, as the elephant is close by.

He throws the shooting sticks.

This gets the desired results, as his follower gets the stick’s squarely between his legs, and down he goes.

Luckily the screaming elephant was chasing someone else.

All this, and you still haven’t gotten your first buffalo!

That, in a nutshell, is the difference between South African farm hunts and wild hunts.

Of course we didn’t mention all the pleasures one gets playing with tse tse flies!

.

Saeed, I think you need to change your cook and catering!

We have had the most amazing meals in the bush even down to backed birthday cakes.

Not left over camp meat and rice!

Speak to Alan and team

.

Generally, when one arrives at a hunting camp, the meals they eat before hunting are provided by the previous hunter.

Once we were provided with a lobster dinner the day we arrived!

I don’t like lobster.

And informed our host he will probably be missing certain parts of his anatomy if I see any but meat on the table!

His wife laughed so much, saying SHE will make sure we don’t get anything but meat, as she could guess what part of his anatomy would be shot off!

A very lovely and understanding lady!

Guys,

To my previous post I think if a hunter can afford a buff hunt in a wild place he is cheating himself by hunting in RSA. The expereince is just not the same. On the other hand if you want to just shoot a buffalo or you have some physical disability RSA is wonderful. It's great fun in RSA and I've enjoyed some great hunts there but it's kind of Africa light in most cases.

BTW: I've never sold an elephant or buffalo hunt in RSA.

Mark

I think many people wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a farm hunt and a wild hunt.

Funny thing happened while hunting blesbok in South Africa.

We were on a hillside.

Opposite hillside had what looked like half a million blesboks.

My professional hunter looked with his glasses, and said “ ah there he is. He is number twelve from the left from the lot third from bottom groups.

I looked through my scope.

They were lumped together so there is no chance of a shot.

A few minutes later.

My ph said “ he moved. He is number seventeen from the RIGHT side now”

This went on for quite a while, me and the video cameraman were hysterical with laughter.

Eventually I did shoot one.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
On the other hand if you want to just shoot a buffalo or you have some physical disability RSA is wonderful. It's great fun in RSA and I've enjoyed some great hunts there but it's kind of Africa light in most cases.

BTW: I've never sold an elephant or buffalo hunt in RSA.

Mark

Mark, I respect you greatly as a booking agent, but please refrain from making such ignorant statements.
Although I agree with you that the experience is not the same, because hunting in the wild does have a certain romance to it, you make it sound like all Buffalo hunting in South Africa is only for the sick and the lame.
There are some great experience Buffalo hunts available in South Africa that will challenge the most experienced African hunters. Sure, there are some tame Buffalo that will be like shooting cattle, but throwing blanket statements like this only hurts your credibility by showing your lack of knowledge on a country, which you represent by the way.
I know that you are better than this.

Most important part is one KNOWS he is hunting on a farm!

That simple fact makes all the difference.

BINGO!

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie64:
.

Saeed, I think you need to change your cook and catering!

We have had the most amazing meals in the bush even down to backed birthday cakes.

Not left over camp meat and rice!

Speak to Alan and team

.

have a look on few of his videos they are even making cakes and good food seems he s trying to low sell to get more quotas left for his safaris at the end of the season