Ejectors offer more speed, but make noise which may help a wounded animal to zero in for a charge. But extractors can be clumsy.

My current double has ejectors. They are nice, however the rifle's action is a bit stiffer due to having to cock the ejectors.
I will remove them before I hunt again.

If I were buying a double, I'd get the ejectors. They add value, and I think you can remove them on the new doubles as well?

Is that vague enough?

Rusty
We band of brothers!

The theory is that a Buff or whatever might want to stomp or munch you does not hear the shots in a way that enables it to know which direction it came from much like it might hear a thunder clap. The ping of the ejectors does not, supposedly, offer the same luxury. I am inclined to agree with Butch that this is probably hogwash but for a difference of $1000 US I might just train myself to work without them anyway. Get lots of practice with the rifle and shoot well and it shouldn't matter either way IMHO.

Best Regards,

JohnTheGreek

Because of todays "belt and suspenders" kind of thinking, I would also like ejectors that can be shut off ( Heym? ).

Good shooting! H

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My preference is extractors on dangerous game rifles, and ejectors on non dangerous game such as deer, or wild hogs.In the case of wild hogs, the hunting of them occasionaly closely resembles the multi-bags of old Africa, where as many as one can shoot before they get away, is the order of the day. You know sort of culling.

Pertaining to the sounds that spook game animals, shooting rarely spooks game,dangerous, or otherwise, unless they are hit by a spray of dirt, or gravel. The boom of shots is a common sound in the bush of Africa. Thunder is the same, and doesn't bother the animals. #1 sound to avoid is the human voice, #2 is anything matalic,ejectors being cocked, or the ping of emties being ejected, empties ratteling in one's pocket, and the like. Cats are particularly bothered by the clicking of safeties at a bait site.

I will give you an example of what I mean. I shot a big wildebeest bull, that was in between two cows, and within 30 ft of a dozen more cows, and calfs. He was hit in the spine, and dropped in his tracks. We were only 30 yds from them all, but they had not seen us. At the shots, and dropping, the rest of the animals turned to look at the fallen bull, and slowly approched him to find out why he was kicking. Not one of those animals even looked in our dirrection. BuTTTTTTTttttt, when I broke the 450/400 3" double rifle, ejecting the empty from the right barrel they all looked straight at me, and almost did flips trying to run each other over to get out of the country. If these wildebeests, had been a couple Askari bull elephant, we would have been in trouble.

I've seen animals shot at,from close range, but completely missed, and the animal not even pick his head up from grazeing, but if that miss hit a twig, or the ground near the animal, his attention was immediately drawn to the point of IMPACT, not the shooter. IMO, an arrow miss, close to the animal, spooks them more than a close shot,with a rifle, as long as the bullet doesn't hit anything. The sound of an arrow passing over a deer's back will cause a jump, and run, every time. He will usually run a few yards, and look back at where he was standing, not at the shooter.

Which ever you decide on, practice shooting both barrels, the dumping the empties, and re-loading, and fireing the next two, aimed shots. Double rifles are not cheap, and IMO, if one is going to make that kind of investment, he should get the features he wants, but learn to use which ever he decides on, porperly.

I would never buy a new hammerless double rifle without auto ejectors. you can always disconnect them, but you can't put them in later if you buy without.

PS:
The two things I find far more detramental to your health, than ejectors, when hunting dangerous game, are the automatic SAFETY, or single trigger, on a double rifle. Those things, on a double, are the devel's own inventions!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 01-16-2002).]

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 01-16-2002).]

I too have noticed that game often (but not always) cannot discern the source of a gunshot and consequently stands around. But the sound of a bolt chambering another round usually lets them know what is going on.

Now, in a bolt action rifle, the cognoscenti consider one a neophyte simpleton if one does not have CRF on one�s dangerous game rifle. I.e., it must ABSOLUTELY extract and eject those empties. And especially, it must do so with dirty ammunition, overloaded ammunition, dirt in the action, etc., etc., and so forth.

But on a double without ejectors, one relies on gravity as the best choice. I realize that an extractor will lift the shells enough to grab them with one�s fingers, but isn�t the raison d�etre of a double rifle absolute reliability combined with very fast operation? What happens if your double gets some dirt on the chamber, dirt on the ammo or one of Mr. Murphy�s other little tricks?

As to metallic sounds, if the clicking of a double�s ejectors gives the animal a fix on one�s position, then as 500grains has already mentioned, how about the clack-clack of a bolt being operated?

Not criticizing anyone�s choice, that�s up to you. Just pondering the seeming contradictions among our rationalizations. Another one unrelated to this, but a pet contradiction of mine, is why a semi-auto pistol is considered state of the art for fighting the �most dangerous game�, humans, while a semi-auto rifle mentioned in the same breath with four legged dangerous game brings looks of scorn mingled with pity for the mentioner�s naivet�. Curious.

I do like ejectors in my double shotgun and it has them along with double triggers.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I keep telling Mac to quit preaching to these guys about doubles but he just doesn't listen to me!

99% of the ele's will not charge at the shot much less the ejectors (please read up on first hand experiences if you don't believe me). These guys that say otherwise have never been there.

For the times when things get thick without a charge, or there is a charge, I want ejectors, as there is just a little too much to think about when you are trying to reload than "casually flipping the barrels."

I suppose I shouldn't even respond to this, as this topic re-occurs constantly, but I can only put up with so much of this BS from guys who have never seen a double much less hunted with one.

Sorry.

Will

For one thing the action opens much easier and slicker and they "dump" very easily, as they operate on low pressure...It is a viable option as opposed to BS as you so glibly state. Apparently you obviously are making your statements on conjecture and not from experience..

More over extractors give you the option of silently opening the gun to replace softs with solid for instance or visa versa, depending on the circumstances. You have another option of reloading one barrel without a ping and I have done that on many occasions...

Oh yes and by the way I have seen elephants charge for no reason, at the shot, and from being wounded by a shot, from driving by them and probably several other reasons that don't come to mind...

I respect your opinion but as you can see I do take exception to such balderdash, as it was extremely blusterous and the subject is apparently arguable, and based on your flaming post I think it lacks merit, when thought out...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Well like someone said, it is a matter of opinion, but I suppose one should have at least some experience before writing or vocalizing an opinion (though it has never stopped me personally).

It is possible that I cannot walk and chew gum at the same time (I'll have to try that), but I have taken a lot of game with a double, including several ele's. It is physically impossible that extractors are faster than ejectors. And when the ele's are only 15 or 20 yards away, I don't think the ping of ejectors is going make any difference whether they charge or not. There have been multitudes of ele's charging the shot, or at least as related by the guys that survived them.

I think the only one that I ever heard of that recommended extractors over ejectors, in print, was Taylor. That comment has apparently spawned a whole league of imitators/followers. Taylor didn't want the ping so that he could drop a bunch in one sitting, which is hardly aplicable today, excluding the inevitable "cull hunting " stories.

And there is a big difference between hunting buff and ele. I have yet to even hear of or read a story, to my recollection, where a nearby buff charged at the shot, or charged because his companion got shot. As Tony Sachez has put it, elephant are much more "community" minded.

If you are trying to convince a rookie that extractors are better than ejectors, I think it is a mistake, but have it if that is your opinion. The Merkels and other doubles that do not have ejectors are made that way because they are cheaper to produce. I'm not sure that should tanslate into an endorsement.

I remain an old (opinionated) crab,

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-17-2002).]

I also know if Merkel would have offered ejectors I would have bought them. The PH was a fan of ejectors and suggested I have someone put ejectors on the Merkel. I do not know if this is possible, I have not looked into it yet.

But if I had the chance to go hunt elephant tomorrow I would not feel handicapped by my guns lack of ejectors.

BigB

I wonder where extractors and ejectors fall into these three categories?

Come on Ray, let's fight.

Will

I forgot to start a fight over the single trigger/double trigger issue. I would have your W.R. single trigger if I could afford it. But I have to live with double triggers.

I dislike double triggers and have yet to have a single trigger shotgun fail. It's the money thing as opposed to "absolute reliability."

You couldn't see your way clear to sell me that W.R. for a couple hundred, could you?

Will

In the old days of ivory hunting you shot more than one elephant from the same herd. The noise of the ejectors was then of disadvantage.

A hunter nowadays who seldom shoot more than one ele in his life should use a double with ejectors.

The only disadvantage with ejectors is you need more power to break open the double. With extractors the rifle opens by itself when you flip the top lever.

The noise factor from ejectors can to-day be neglected. A bolt action make a lot more noise.

Besides, you will seldom be killed by the elephant you shot at, his companions is an entirely different matter. Keep your surrondings under close watch...

Bjorn

[This message has been edited by Bjorn Klappe (edited 01-17-2002).]

In the jess, you can be standing knee in elephants and not know it. I have almost walked into the butt of some until the trackers or PH's pointed out that my enthusiasm was about to get me into trouble.

Will

I like the slick openning and ability to swap loads quietly at my descrestion...I also like silently safties on my rifles, same thing. A metallic sound has foiled more than one hunt.....

Hopefully you will allow me that option.

As to never having seen a Buff charge at the shot or read of one doing that, It recently put Johan Calitz in the hospital for several months. The Buff his friend shot charged at the shot.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I like the Win mod 70 classics, and would like to own one, but I have never found one on display where I could move the three-position safety to "fire" without a horrendous CLICK.
Do people normally have these worked on before hunting with them?

Rick.

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 01-18-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Will:
MacD37 and Butch:

I keep telling Mac to quit preaching to these guys about doubles but he just doesn't listen to me!

<<< snip >>>
I suppose I shouldn't even respond to this, as this topic re-occurs constantly, but I can only put up with so much of this BS from guys who have never seen a double much less hunted with one.

Sorry.

Will

---

Will,
I don't quite know how to take your post, please explain how the above exserp of your post applies to me personally!
??????????? Confused! But even more, I would like to hear how you think it applies to Butch!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

Actually I was trying to agree with you and Mr. Searcy. I totally respect your opinion on double rifles, but apparently that post didn't appear that way. I'm with you in the double camp (whether that is a good thing or not, you may not want to say!!).

Will

P.S. You might want to read about an added benefit of ejectors under "What would you do?"

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-18-2002).]

Will, and John S,

As anyone who has anything to do with guns, and gun people, knows, nothing is chiseled in stone. About all that is sure to draw a consensus is, that the rifle should be pointed at game if one has hope of killing it! Haveing said that, the likes, or dislikes of myself, or anyone else, for that matter, are purely personal.

It seems that my way of writeing is taken, by some, to mean I think what I say is the only way things can be, and all other opinions are not worthy. Believe me, gentelmen, nothing could be farther from the truth. Anything I say here is only because I believe it to be true, and I do not expect anyone to march lockstep with me, against their will!

The single trigger on a double rifle, thing, as eluded to by John S, and will, is such an example. I would have thought one would have asked me why that was my opinion, rather than, in essence, saying there is no reason for not haveing one on a double rifle because it had never failed on a shotgun.

Let's look into that for a moment! If a trigger fails on your 20 ga timberdoodle gun, what is the worse thing that will happen? You either miss one, or both shots at a 3 oz bird,your hunt is over for that day, and your shotgun will go to the local smith for some tweeking before your next trip afield. My double shotguns are all single selective triggers, save two. I even have one double rifle with a single sel. trigger, but it has interchangable barrel sets for shotgun, and the rifle is a 8X57JR for deer. Admittedly it hasn't failed me!

My reasoning is, that a double rifle is TWO completely seperate, and independent, rifles on the same stock. no matter what happens to one side of the rifle, the other side will still, at least, opperate as a singleshot, but only if it has a trigger. With a single trigger, the sides are tied together with more than just the stock, but also by the ONE THING that opertaes both sides is the TRIGGER. Take, for instance, the single trigger breaks on the first shot, at close quarters,or on the second shot that doesn't do the trick, in either case, you are left with a 12 lb club to fight with. At least if the rifle has two triggers the other barrel is still available.

Things that make you go, HUMMMMMMmmmmmmm!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jim in Idaho:
Chiming in with the voice of total inexperience with doubles, just wanted to note a seeming contradiction.

Now, in a bolt action rifle, the cognoscenti consider one a neophyte simpleton if one does not have CRF on one�s dangerous game rifle. I.e., it must ABSOLUTELY extract and eject those empties. And especially, it must do so with dirty ammunition, overloaded ammunition, dirt in the action, etc., etc., and so forth.

.

---

Jim, you are absolutely right, of course. There does seem to be a contradiction between the two, untill you think about the differences between the two actions, and the cartridges designed for each. They are two intirely different rifles that opperate in very different ways.

First off the bolt rifle has a lot of garbage between the fired case, and the outside. Secondly the the bolt rifle usually use cartridges which opperate under considerabley more chamber pressure than double rifles, causing a lot more chamber wall bind. Now take into account the fact that the ejectors opperate like extractors for the first 1/4" or so, takeing the case walls free of the chamber, before ejection. The ejection of a round from a CRF bolt rifle is far more effecient than a spring loaded ejector of a double rifle. The value of the CRF is CONTROL, over the push feed. This has nothing to do with whether a double rifle should have ejectors or not.

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

Ejectors can always been turned into Extractors so in some ways you have the best of both worlds. If buying a new double rifle, for this reason and increased resale value, I would go for Ejectors.

I also agree with MacD37 that Auto safety's and Single Triggers are Dangerous on Double Rifles and have had any Auto safety's taken off.

500N

But I suppose there are different opinions about that. How, I don't know!!

Will

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 01-19-2002).]