Tracks across Africa / Ivan Carter

02 February 2010, 18:58

I was watching Tracks across Africa this past Sunday and Ivan Carter was guiding a gentleman (Elephant hunting in Botswana) that owned and was using Pondoro Taylors 450 X 3 1/4. I believe the show as about as much about the history of the rifle as about the hunt. Very interesting none the less.
My question about the hunt (Ivan if you are listening?) The hunter fired two shots from the double at the elephant (frontal brain). The first shot "appeared" a bit high and I could not tell where the second shot hit but it did not appear fatal either.
The next frame it shows the hunter finishing off the bull while it was upright on the ground.
Ivan, did you happen to shoot the elephant in the hip as it retreated to immobilize it? There seemed to be some missing footage of film? Curious why the elephant was down?

EZ

02 February 2010, 19:06

dogcat

I was thinking the same thing.

02 February 2010, 20:56

ledvm

quote:
There seemed to be some missing footage of film?

02 February 2010, 20:58

Navaluk

I actually bothered to watch it because of the history of the rifle. What I found absolutely shocking was that the hunter seemed happy to apparently have Ivan shoot his elephant.

You can't ever fail in africa.

I think I would save my money and just pay a cut rate for Ivan to shoot my Elephant and send me the photos. It would be every bit as rewarding, it would save money, and I wouldn't have to sit in that damn plane.

I might even hunt two areas of Zim this way and have one of the Chifuti boys blast me a buffalo. I wonder if I could get a cut rate if I book them at the same time. Any Booking Agents out there that could shed light on this?

02 February 2010, 21:04

465H&H

SG Olds,

Exactly what would you have Ivan do? The client obviously missed the brain shot on the first shot and didn't stop it with the second either. Would you have Ivan let the wounded bull escape to maybe never be seen again? I think Ivan did exactly what I as a hunter would hope he would do and that is to back me up if I flubbed the frontal brain shot. Not letting a wounded animal escape is much more important to me than my ego.

465H&H

02 February 2010, 21:15

MARK H. YOUNG

It would never cross my mind that if I blew a shot on something that could bite that the PH would not follow up. I saw the show in question and if I had been the hunter I would have expected everybody to be pouring on the bullets as I obviously had not got the job done.

Mark

02 February 2010, 21:29

larrys01

quote:
It would never cross my mind that if I blew a shot on something that could bite that the PH would not follow up. I saw the show in question and if I had been the hunter I would have expected everybody to be pouring on the bullets as I obviously had not got the job done.

I have to agree with Mark. Also remember they have to leave room in the show for the commercials. However if Ivan did have to Anchor the elephant then it should have at least been mentioned.

02 February 2010, 21:33

Use Enough Gun

Amen. +1

to Mark's assessment.

02 February 2010, 21:42

Chris Lozano

IF i remember correctly Ivan does fire a shot after the hunter fires both of his. You can't see where it was shot,but it was shot. And i bet the hunter was happy he did it.

02 February 2010, 21:46

graybird

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Lozano:
IF i remember correctly Ivan does fire a shot after the hunter fires both of his. You can't see where it was shot,but it was shot. And i bet the hunter was happy he did it.

Yeap, I think there were 3 shots fired.

02 February 2010, 22:00

Navaluk

465H&H

I made no comment on Ivan. My comments were entirely and completely about the client who didn't seem to care.

02 February 2010, 22:00

eezridr

I would like to see what more is on the editing room floor?
BTW: Ivan, I know what would have made a very, very "nice tip" on that hunt.

EZ

02 February 2010, 22:05

Sevenxbjt

Who cares? Shoot away Ivan.

Why don't we just let the professionals do their job, and if we don't want them to back us up maybe we should practice more.

02 February 2010, 22:39

Biebs

quote:
What I found absolutely shocking was that the hunter seemed happy to apparently have Ivan shoot his elephant.

Maybe the hunter was used to hunting with Mark Sullivan....he was happy because at least this time he got to shoot first!!!!

02 February 2010, 23:00

vandyboy

In watching this episode, I thought I heard three shots as well. If in fact Ivan was the third shot, my take is that he did what he is there for. Why not anchor the elephant rather than possibly not recovering a wounded animal. If I were the client, I would not have a problem with my PH doing the same thing in that situation.

02 February 2010, 23:12

retreever

Look at it another way maybe the client told Ivan before the hunt if I am empty put in a follow up shot.
If ele got away that is one hell of an expensive pill to swallow. Lost ele.

Mike

02 February 2010, 23:44

Wildlife Gallery

Men,

This is a perfect example of why you should attend a Safari Shooting School. I had the pleasure of attending a portion of the SAAM Shooting School and will tell you it IS a necessary thing to do before hunting dangerous game. Practice makes perminent - not - perfect. But no practice at all makes the PH's job that much more difficult. And if the client is honest with themselves, they didn't really kill the animal. Their PH did.

That being said, things happen in the bush, and I'd much rather have the PH help me seal the deal than allow the animal to get away wounded. It can happen to anyone, and does. I'm sure those clients that have lost wounded game would much rather have had their PH back them up with a killing shot than let the trophy get away...DAN

02 February 2010, 23:58

465H&H

quote:
Originally posted by SG Olds:
465H&H

I made no comment on Ivan. My comments were entirely and completely about the client who didn't seem to care.

I appologise if I got it wrong. Maybe he was just happy that the elephant didn't get away wounded!

465H&H

03 February 2010, 03:17

Idaho Sharpshooter

this may come as a shock to some, especially if you have not ever been that close to an Elephant; but a lot of people have a mild nervous breakdown just before they pull the trigger. I thought I was pretty cool when I shot my Buffalo, but a minute later as we were walking up to it I had to hand the rifle to one of the trackers. I had "buck fever" so bad for about sixty seconds I'd have had to pull down my pants and look at the underwear tag if you'd asked me my name.

This guy just wasn't the polished experienced hunter y'all are. If I put two from my double into an Elephant's skull and he doesn't hit the ground before the empties do I hope my PH backs me up.

Rich
I guess you can call me "Haines" for now

03 February 2010, 03:49

eezridr

I was curious as to what anchored the varmint?? I never heard a third shot. Guess I need to turn up the volume on my TV.
Perhaps Ivan will chime in and provide some additional details if he feels it will not hurt his clients feelings. That would be understandable, especially if the client has plans to hunt with him in the future.
I never intended to discredit the hunter in this thread in any way.

03 February 2010, 04:37

ivan carter

MEN ,
heres what happenend ,
the first shot was too high , the eelphant swung his head and the second shot actually hit the bottom of the left tusk as the elephant was quartering away , at that point i fired a shouldershot.

the elephant turned to leave and i fired my second barrel in an attempted hip shot that actually slowed him down a bunch but didnt completely anchor him ..

we all ran after him and as soon as he slowed down and stopped we lined up and put in the finishing shot ...

on elephant it turns out like this a lot , i can guarantee if i had not fired that we would never have recovered that buill , the bush nearby was a little thick and we would have certainluy not had another shot by the time my hunter had reloaded ..

its always a conversation we have ahead of "the moment of truth" and so my backinbg up is discussed ad nnever comes as a surprise if the first two attempts dont go as planned ..

my goal is to not fire a shot and i will only shoot for two reasons
1/ an animal is about to kill someone
2/a trophy is about to be lost wounded

the frontal brainshot is very tough , though when well executed is very effective ...

one reason for being very close to elephant is that the brainshot is so tough at least being close gives you a chance at two attempts and ample time for backup.

i have never had a client lose an elephant and i have backed up on many - if you want to attempts a frontal brainshot and you dont want backup be prepared to perhaps go home without.

i dont ever allow my backup shot to diminish an experience we are paid as professionals to ensure the ethical collecting of trophies while keeping our people safe in the field ...

allowing an elephant to run off wounded when i know i could have backed up and stopped it is equally unethical.

either way it was an awesome elephant , the gentleman has booked to hunt with me this year and next and i am sure we will have a great time out there ...

on a sidenote it was a great wonder to carry the rifle of such a great elephant hunter as pondoro taylor and to know that that rifle is still doing what its meant to do is awesome ...

thank you all for watching we greatly appreciate it

03 February 2010, 04:55

xgrunt

quote:
Originally posted by ivan carter:
MEN ,
heres what happenend ,
the first shot was too high , the eelphant swung his head and the second shot actually hit the bottom of the left tusk as the elephant was quartering away , at that point i fired a shouldershot.

the elephant turned to leave and i fired my second barrel in an attempted hip shot that actually slowed him down a bunch but didnt completely anchor him ..

we all ran after him and as soon as he slowed down and stopped we lined up and put in the finishing shot ...

on elephant it turns out like this a lot , i can guarantee if i had not fired that we would never have recovered that buill , the bush nearby was a little thick and we would have certainluy not had another shot by the time my hunter had reloaded ..

its always a conversation we have ahead of "the moment of truth" and so my backinbg up is discussed ad nnever comes as a surprise if the first two attempts dont go as planned ..

my goal is to not fire a shot and i will only shoot for two reasons
1/ an animal is about to kill someone
2/a trophy is about to be lost wounded

the frontal brainshot is very tough , though when well executed is very effective ...

one reason for being very close to elephant is that the brainshot is so tough at least being close gives you a chance at two attempts and ample time for backup.

i have never had a client lose an elephant and i have backed up on many - if you want to attempts a frontal brainshot and you dont want backup be prepared to perhaps go home without.

i dont ever allow my backup shot to diminish an experience we are paid as professionals to ensure the ethical collecting of trophies while keeping our people safe in the field ...

allowing an elephant to run off wounded when i know i could have backed up and stopped it is equally unethical.

either way it was an awesome elephant , the gentleman has booked to hunt with me this year and next and i am sure we will have a great time out there ...

on a sidenote it was a great wonder to carry the rifle of such a great elephant hunter as pondoro taylor and to know that that rifle is still doing what its meant to do is awesome ...

thank you all for watching we greatly appreciate it

Excellent answer and I very much enjoyed the rifle history. Hope your client makes a perfect shot next year.

03 February 2010, 05:09

Heym 450/400

TAA is a top notch production. I just wish more shows could produce a high quality African series like these guys do.

03 February 2010, 07:13

Stealth

Well said, Ivan!

03 February 2010, 07:37

Scott Powell

Ivan - Well said!

You are a true professional and TAA is a great show!

03 February 2010, 07:51

N E 450 No2

Ivan is perfectly correct.

On my 3 Safaris I "told" my PH that I wanted to shoot my own animals.... BUT IF, in YOUR opinion, I have botched the shot, and you FEEL or THINK, you need to shoot... THEN SHOOT.

You are the PH [Professional Hunter], I am the Client.

Also I also "tell" the PH, if you see an animal you think I should shoot, just tell me to SHOOT.... We can talk about why later...

The simple rule is, if you do not want your PH to shoot, then you MUST shoot good.

03 February 2010, 08:33

Use Enough Gun

You're my man, Ivan!!!

03 February 2010, 08:38

CaneCorso

quote:
Originally posted by ivan carter:
MEN ,
heres what happenend ,

... it was an awesome elephant , the gentleman has booked to hunt with me this year and next and i am sure we will have a great time out there ...

Damn, I need to make more money!

03 February 2010, 08:56

Bahati

quote:
Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
If I put two from my double into an Elephant's skull and he doesn't hit the ground before the empties do I hope my PH backs me up.

Rich

Well put!

The protocol regarding backup/follow-up shots has to be very specifically dicussed between hunter and PH beforehand. No surprises, no regrets. There is no time for discussions when the need arises ...

03 February 2010, 10:58

375 fanatic

quote:
Originally posted by ivan carter:

allowing an elephant to run off wounded when i know i could have backed up and stopped it is equally unethical.

+1 because that ones kills the wrong people

03 February 2010, 11:19

graybird

quote:
Originally posted by ivan carter:
its always a conversation we have ahead of "the moment of truth" and so my backinbg up is discussed ad nnever comes as a surprise if the first two attempts dont go as planned ..

my goal is to not fire a shot and i will only shoot for two reasons
1/ an animal is about to kill someone
2/a trophy is about to be lost wounded

And that my friends is a true Professional!!!

I hope to someday share a campfire with you, Ivan.

03 February 2010, 16:30

Wildlife Gallery

Ivan,

Great explanation. As usual you are a true professional....DAN

03 February 2010, 20:15

ledvm

My good friend and PH Nigel Theisen always says: "Never firing my rifle in a season at a clients animal is one of the ways I measure my success as a true professional hunter."

03 February 2010, 20:36

eezridr

Oh Boy; Are you just trying to keep this thread alive?

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
My good friend and PH Nigel Theisen always says: "Never firing my rifle in a season at a clients animal is one of the ways I measure my success as a true professional hunter."

03 February 2010, 20:40

Jeff Wemmer

I've hunted with Ivan...I blew a couple of shots and he saved my ass! That said, he also let me do some really GREAT stuff and was never overbearing, or making me feel like he was sitting on my shoulders ready to back me up should I blow another one!

Good man that guy!

JW

03 February 2010, 20:48

Bahati

Ivan probably has more experience in the field hunting elephant that 98% of the people reading AR, together. If he thinks it was time to shoot, believe me, it was time to shoot.

03 February 2010, 22:03

Jeff Wemmer

03 February 2010, 22:20

the enstrom

If you haven't missed or made a bad shot, you haven't shot much. And, if you have ever lost a wounded trophy in Africa you would know why Ivan's client was happy!!!

03 February 2010, 22:29

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by eezridr:
Oh Boy; Are you just trying to keep this thread alive?
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
My good friend and PH Nigel Theisen always says: "Never firing my rifle in a season at a clients animal is one of the ways I measure my success as a true professional hunter."

Absolutely right...I am stirring the pot but I think it is a good topic. There are records of how many animals get shot in defense by PH's and they can be accessed I think.

04 February 2010, 00:03

Dave Fulson

I'll say this, and I probably spend more time- with more P.H's - in more countrys-hunting more game in my job than most folks. A P.H that does not do ANY shooting during a season is not doing much hunting ! Thats Nigel, Carter , Hurt, Selby and so forth. "
Wounded animals do happen, from duikers to dagga boys. Backup shots are the responsibility of the PH if the client fails to get it done, for whatever reason. Want to shoot-and having to shoot are two different things. There is a reason Nigel carries a loaded gun.