The Accurate Reloading Forums
416 vs 450 RUM.
416 vs 450 RUM.
Let's assume here that Remington might actually pay some attention to what is posted on boards such as this. If they were intent on introducing a larger version of their 375RUM, which one of the proposed calibers would you prefer? What would you use as a basis for your choice that you think would influence their decision to make your preferred caliber their next intro?
This may be a technical problem, instead of one having to do with shooter preference.
When the 300 RUM first came out, based on published specifications, I calculated that it could be necked up to 416 with no problem. But since the case has no belt and no rim, cartridges formed from it need to headspace on the case neck (like the 30/06, 308, 7X57, et al.). So there must be enough case diameter where the neck would be for there to be enough cartridge neck to make headspacing possible.
The 458 Winchester mag, for example, has a straight wall (no cartridge neck), but this doesn't matter because that case has a belt and headspacing is on the belt.
The 300 RUM case is larger in diameter than the 458 Win Mag case at the point where the case neck would need to occur, but the difference may not be great enough to make a sufficient case neck for proper headspacing.
Now watch Remington come out with a 458 Remington Ultra Magnum based on this case and show me wrong!
[This message has been edited by LE270 (edited 05-27-2001).]
LE270,
Fred Zeglin (
www.z-hat.com) is already doing it. He is calling it the .450 Ultracat.
have been thinking of having him make up one for me. Maybe Remington will take note.
WyoJoe
In reality, Tom Siatos did this over thirty years ago with the 460 G&A. It has also been done via the 458/404imp which is about the same as the G&A except for the sharper shoulder angle. Our esteemed leader Saeed has also recently been testing the 450 Vincent, again a 458/404 variant.
LE270-
Beltless cases headspace on the shoulder, not the neck. I think from reading your post you meant to say shoulder?
quote:
Originally posted by John S:
LE270-
Beltless cases headspace on the shoulder, not the neck. I think from reading your post you meant to say shoulder?
Yes. You're right. Everywhere I used "neck" I should have used "shoulder."
I'm also happy to see that I was wrong about the possibility that there may be insufficient diameter in the 300 RUM case to allow it to make a good shoulder with a 458 bullet.
[This message has been edited by LE270 (edited 05-28-2001).]
27 May 2001, 17:58
Mike375I think it was boddington that said or suggested a 450 Ultra some time back. Maybe he knows one is coming.
My calculations show that the shoulder size is probably too small for a factory to get involved.
As to your question, I think the 450 Ultra might be migh choice for a dedicated rifle, as distinct from just a switch barrel set up such as a 375 Ultra barrel for a 375 H&H rifle.
I much prefer 450 to 416 because of all the bullets as made by Hornady etc.
Mike
Mike,
I also prefer the 45cal to the 416 for similar reasons but there aren't any flies on the 416 for hunting! Good power and more easily handled by the average shooter make it likely the better choice for a hunter, opposed to the 45cal for the "shooter."
I really can't understand why someone hasn't picked up on how good a 458/404 is, one would think WW, Remington, Weatherby or ? would try one of these. It is the perfect blend of case capacity, suitability for many actions and performance. Way better cartridge than the Lott or Ackley, IMO.
JohnS:
Don't start saying a 458/404 is better than the Lott. I am contemplating a 458 Lott on a CZ550, because it is so easy and can get 5 in the magazine, which may (or maybe not) true with the larger base dia. of the 404. And no, I don't want to but a drop magazine.
Will,
Sorry, but it IS BETTER than a Lott. I've had both and for me there is nothing to recommend the Lott over the 458/404. It feeds better with less work, it has lower pressure for any given velocity and it is capable of more velocity if you want it! If you're using the CZ action you have a perfect action to make a 460 G&A or the 458/404imp. The CZ should hold 4 down with the 460 G&A.
31 May 2001, 11:38
<allen day>John, I'm not saying I'd buy one, but if I were Remington, I'd go with a .45 caliber RUM ahead of a .416. I think if "punch" is what's called for, then it's "punch" it shall be, and the most logical way to really increase the margin of punch over a .416 is to go the next step up to .45.
By doing so, Remington won't be stepping on its own toes (not that they care), and they will also be moving into an area that's (commercially) only occupied by Dakota and Weatherby. They be able to offer a truly effective powerhouse that out-performs the tired .458 Winchester without drawing a long breath, plus they will be able to offer cheaper (probably) and (ultimately) more available ammunition that Dakota and Weatherby. A big .45 on the RUM case would fill a real gap. Remington has never offered a big .45 of their own ever before.
AD
Well,
As I mentioned in the 416 thread, I have no use for a 416 ultra, especially as I plan to build a 416 Howell.
Now when we come to the 450 ultra, I'm actually warming up to the idea. I had a 458 lott, and really liked. That said, I have 2 ruger #1 458 win mag take off barrels, waiting to be made into another "class 2" 45, and I'm not sure I'd build another 458 lott.
As far as the magazene capacity issue, it is a non issue, the lott belt is .532" in diameter, the 404 case is .540" in diameter, for some reason the ultra case is .545" in diameter. The ultra case is so close to the the belt diameter that it will have no affect on magazene capacity.
The sole reason to choose the lott is that you can use 458 win mag ammo in a pinch, which I think is a strong and valid argument for the round. I know that a 24" barreled lott will push a 500 gr 2300 fps, and a 22" will do it, but just barely.
Now, if I can get factory 450 Ultra brass, and dies available at standard prices, there seems to be no reason not to choose it over the lott. As far as the 460 G&A and what custom dies go for, its a toss up. I used RCBS 458 win mag dies for the lott, and they worked fine.
I believe Remington will eventally come out with a 416 Ultra. Once they introduced the 7mm it was clear they weren't afraid of cutting their own purse by competing with (and surpassing) the 7STW. Somewhere deep in the bowels of Big Green some pencil pusher decided they would win either way. Same with a 416 Ultra and the 416 Rem Mag.
As far as the 458 Ultra goes, I'm not so sure. The market for big thumpers is real small. Especially in factory guns.
When Remington introduces a 416 Ultra I'll probably get one to pair up with my 338 Ultra, but I'm not sure I need a 458 Ultra.
Of course, need has precious little to do with gun ownership!
Joe
31 May 2001, 14:10
<Pumba>LE270,
I have developed and fired a .458", a .468", and a .474" cartridge based on 404 cylinder brass. It will not be a problem for Remington to do a 458 RUM.
Good Hunting !
31 May 2001, 14:52
<redleg155>Well, if it means anything, my CZ is currently being made into a 460 G&A. Just the personal preference of a yet-to-go to Africa guy. The 416 on that case is a wonderful cartridge too (aka the 416 Dakota). I hope to have the rifle back in my hands sometime in the fall of this year. I'll report back more about it then.
regards,
redleg
quote:
Originally posted by Pumba:
LE270,I have developed and fired a .458", a .468", and a .474" cartridge based on 404 cylinder brass. It will not be a problem for Remington to do a 458 RUM.
Pumba,
Thanks for this information. Did you find that threre was sufficient case shoulder to have reliable headspacing with the .468 and .474?
LE270
[This message has been edited by LE270 (edited 05-31-2001).]
03 June 2001, 04:05
NickuduMy thinking runs the same as does that of Allan and Paul H. Were I calling the shots @ Remington Arms, I'd get right to the business of creating the new World standard in .458 caliber ... the correct one, based on a bottle neck case, that which we have been patiently awaiting since the late 1950's.
I think the .458 Lott is just terrific from many perspectives, as is the .450 G&A and other cleverly devised .458 wildcats of long standing. I feel, however, that their very conception may not have been pondered, had we been furnished with a proper casing by Winchester (or whoever) way back when. Too much was made of saving manufacturing costs and promoting the use of "standard actions". The very least they should have come up with was a 2.800" LOTT casing but a factory standard, shouldered casing of adequate capacity was what they needed to provide then and since! Think, just for a moment, how differently our world of big bore rifles and dangerous game hunting would have evolved these past 40 years had they done so.
In my view, Remington should strive for a flawlessly functional casing of sufficient capacity to drive 500 grain bullets, at moderate pressure, to a velocity of 2,375 fps. "Effortless" .458 Lott / Ackley performance levels in tandem with enhanced potential for high % functional reliability. This, I'll gladly wait another year for ... maybe.