Why does the 458 Lott get so much recognition when the 450 Ackley can do it all and more. One is as easy to form as the other, both need the same length action and they will both shoot 458 Winchester loads in a pinch. The Ackley has been around a lot longer and has a greater capacity than the Lott which turns into lower pressure with the same velocity. With a case full of Winchester 748 the Ackley will push 2380 to 2400 from a 24 inch barrel. The magazine capacity with the same action will be identical so why the big sway towards the 458 Lott. 470 Mbogo

There is no considerable difference between the .450 Ackley and the .458 Lott or Watts (2.85 case). Loading data are quite similar, the small difference in case volume is of the same order as the difference sometimes found between the make of the cases. In "Quickload" data of gr of water are the same.

I think the Lott got its preference by the ease of loading this cartridge and supply of brass. The .450 Ackley needs fireforming with no influence on the efficiency of the cartridge. And some like the possibility of using .458 WinMag in case of emergency.

------------------

470 Mbogo,
I hear what you are saying.

I had a 450 Barnes Supreme and a 416 Barnes Supreme built on H&H length Mark X Mausers back in the mid eighties before Remington came out with their 416 Remington.

I never had a need to build a full blown Lott or Ackley, or the Hoffman/Remington 416, thus far because of this.

The 450 Barnes Supreme is very similar to the Ackley version, both came about near a half century ago, along with the Mashburn and Watts, etc. There has been a lott of variations on the theme. The songs have new titles and the same melodies.

I did simply rechamber a 458 Winchester with a standard box Mark X Mauser to 458 Lott, but am limited to short bulleted Lott loads in the magazine or single loaded long bullet Lott in the chamber plus the standard 458 Winchester in the magazine. This is a stunt gun with a light barrel and a Brown Precision fiberglass stock. It has a detachable KDF brake and is pretty light and handy. A gun to cut my teeth on as a fledgling big bore nut back then.

I will just stick to the 450 Barnes Supreme for my full blown Lott/Ackley/Watts/Masburn equivalent, thank you.

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

I seem to recall that Jack Lott was amongst the "in" group at Petersen's Publications and got his name in the magazine quite a bit.

In addition to above mentioned attributes in favor of the Lott the ability to make use of the standard .458 Win dies. The availability of inexpensive cylindrical brass and expanders for .375 & .416 brass also favor the selection of the Lott. Though the .458 Win will fire in the Ackley chamber, the brass takes a real beating and may not be reusable for long. The reaming of the Lott version is also more straightforward.

With all that, the Ackley design is technically superior offering increased and more consistent neck tension, along with a bit more volume.

Yeah, what Nick said.

I don't think there is anything special about the lott round, but there are a few little details that I think make it superiour over the other similar rounds.

Lets face it, the difference in velocity between the lott, and the ackley is 50 to possibly 100 fps.

Yes, the ackley can be loaded to slightly lower pressure, but you're talking a few thousand psi, nothing signifigant.

Yes, they'll both shoot the 458 win mag, but the lott will do it w/ no loss in velocity, the ackley will loose velocity due to the case blowing out. I'm in the camp of the 458 win mag needs all the help it can get, so if I have a cat that can use the winny in a pinch, it better not loose any of its velocity.

I also think having the case trimmed to 2.80" is a practicle move, as straight cylindrical brass hasn't always been easy to come by, and necking up 375's or 416's will shorten them notably.

So, was Jack Lott a genius to trim the 458 Watts back .050", heck no, and it would have been nice if he'd simply given the Watts round some more press, and mentioned you can trim the cases back .050" and used necked up 375's.

Really, if you want to move up from the lott, then go to the 460 G&A, same magazene capacity, and the case is of signifigantly larger proportions to justify the claims of increased velocity, or reduced pressure.

I lump the lott, ackley and watts all in the same ballpark, no signifigant difference between any of them, but I think the lott has some minute differences in its favor. Despite all that, my replacement for my previous lott will be a 2.5" 404 based round, cause I'm fickle

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DB Bill:
Hi Bill,
I think you hit the nail on the head with Jack Lott being in the know with the right people to push and publish his works. I built my 450 Ackley on a Bruno 602 that started out as a 458 Winchester. I purchased the 450 reamer, had it chambered and then rebuilt the stock to what I wanted. With the original feed ramp this gun fed great and would really perform. With one up the spout it would hold a total of six. The more consistent neck tension is a very good point also. When you really consider the point of shooting 458 Winchester ammo I don't think it holds water. If you loose your ammo you may as well have lost your gun and be using a camp gun or spend the time with the airline to get your baggage real quick. The best thing I found was to arrive two days early for your Safari to relax and get rid of your jet lag. This should give the airline a chance to track your lost items. To figure on finding 458 ammo is a crap shoot and you could be looking at the old compressed loads with a velocity of 1600 fps and then where are you. We tend to think of the 458 ammo as being sorted out here in North America with lighter bullets going faster to improve the cartridges performance but I don't think that they even know about it where your going. Just out of curiosity has anyone reading this post gone on a Safari where your lugauge has not arrived or been found within a day or two? 470 Mbogo

A couple of good points, 470 Mbogo. We like to talk about "insurance", and 2 nights in the Jo'berg "Airport Hilton" seems cheap if your luggage is 2 days behind you.

My question is this: The Ackley has very little taper (only 0.010" difference in diameter from just ahead of the belt to the shoulder). Will that have any negative effect? If you try to feed a .458 Winchester into an Ackley chamber, could the case mouth hang up on the chamber's shoulder?

470Mbogo....no problems (knock wood) on my two trips to Africa but the airlines did mangage to lose my rifle on a trip to Canada awile back...it arrived it camp about an hour after I did....we went in on horseback for a day and a half and they chartered a float plane to fly it up. If it hadn't been for the fact that I was such an a**hole at the terminal and knew my rights, I think they would have just said "tough, pick it up on the way back".

One additional advantage to the Lott is that one can find formed, properly headstamped brass at something less than a king's ransom. If you use a cut back .458 Winchester die as described by Norbert, you can put a ghost nect on the Lott, which negates the Ackley's primary advantage.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by loud-n-boomer:
Loud-n-boomer you old wildcatter you. Will you call that one the 458 Ear-Splittin Loud-n-Boomer. The only real advantage is the small amount of extra case capacity. I think there are a few companies producing headstamped 450 Ackley brass. I think they charge close to the same as their Lott brass.
Mast will do small runs of custom headstamping on request. They are using a hydraulic system similar to the headstamping press that I made up to headstamp my 470 Mbogo brass. If there were a few guys that wanted the same 458 Lott or Ackley brass it might be worth getting together on it. 470 Mbogo

If you're willing to use .458 ammo, why go to the trouble of having something different made up? To me, that certainly does not offer a sound reason for going to the Lott.

Telly

Jack Lott had an in with Peterson perhaps, but P.O. Ackley is probably the most famous gunsmith and wildcatter that ever lived and his name his far better known than Jack Lott ever was or ever will be....Petersons didn't help Capstick out much and they pushed that one to the limit and it is seemingly a very well designed big bore, but I have no experience with it, as I would go to a 500 or 505, in the event the Lott wasn't my piece of cake.

I seem to recall that the 450 Ackley or one of the 450 Wildcats had a slight reverse taper, and that is what killed it. Any commits on this? I sure am not a fan of the reverse taper.

The Lott is, in fact, the best of design in my estimation, regardless of who designed it. The African version at 3" may be even better, but again I have no experience with it either.

I doubt that there is a nickles worth of difference in any of them...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Telly,
When one hunts the four corners of the globe and in particular Africa, the availability of Factory 458 is a real salvation...When you travel outside the states you must seperate your ammo from your luggage and if your luggage is lost and your shooting a wildcat your SOL for ammo and its usually down hill from there....

The ability to shoot 458 Factory fodder in a 458 Lott or Ackley is a real life factor in choosing a caliber to hunt Africa...458 ammo is available in almost any little back country store and certainly available in the larger citys, something that cannot be said for many calibers..Having had to use a few Safari company rifles, this is a prime element in choosing a caliber for dangerous game...I say this haveing had to shoot buffalo with a 308 and military ball ammo.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson:
Hi Ray,
The Ackley has a .0095 taper measured off a fired round. With .005 taper per inch of cartridge for proven ease of extraction, this one just cuts it.How in the hell do you get a reverse taper to extract and how do you cut the Chamber? You won't be firing it in a Ruger #1. Take care. 470 Mbogo

Ray,

I do not argue the availibility of .458 Win. ammo (I have personally not had any problems with the caliber), my point is that if you don't care for the caliber in the first place, which most nowadays don't on account of problems with ammo (the old stuff like one may find in some of the out of the way places you describe) why would the ability to use this old and "dangerous" ammo be such a godsend. Looks to me like if you're willing to shoot the ammo if you lose yours, maybe it ain't that bad! Any why would being able to reload the cases be a worthwhile endeavour? Maybe I'm missing something here.

Telly

Ray,
You are confused about the reverse taper because of that picture of a buckled 450 Mashburn case in the Ackley book. There ain't no such animal as a reverse taper in any of the .458 "longs." Ditto 470 Mbogo.

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Telly:
Hi Telly,
I fully understand what your saying and agree with you. When booking I wanted to know what kind of camp rifles would be made available if there was to be a glich in the program. The other precaution is a two day lay over before flying into camp in order to get rid of jet lag and to have time to sort out any lost luggage problems. The camp had a Bruno 602 in 458 Winchester with 450 A-Square Monolithics for ammo. I could go with that and feel compfortable. Maybee I'm seeing it all wrong but I guess all the publicity through Peterson's paid off.

RAB I knew that would't fly. 470 Mbogo

Telly,
I think you did miss my point, All I'm saying is when I lose my 458 Lott ammo, I can use 458 Win. and thats better than useing some questionable camp gun that might be a piece of junk...many are. If I was using say a 460 G&A I would be SOL...the 458 Lott gives me that wonderfull option. I think it is a very good choice, as this happens often when traveling abroad.

I don't like the 458 Win. particularly but it will do in a pinch, and is certainly better than a stick in the eye.

RA,
One of the 450 biggies has a reverse taper or perhaps it just swells the case when the bullet is seated...I recall reading about this in some book. Perhaps reverse taper is the wrong word...It supposedly keeps the bullets from setting back..

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Telly,
I think you did miss my point, All I'm saying is when I lose my 458 Lott ammo, I can use 458 Win. and thats better than useing some questionable camp gun that might be a piece of junk...many are. If I was using say a 460 G&A I would be SOL...the 458 Lott gives me that wonderfull option. I think it is a very good choice, as this happens often when traveling abroad.

I don't like the 458 Win. particularly but it will do in a pinch, and is certainly better than a stick in the eye.

RA,
One of the 450 biggies has a reverse taper or perhaps it just swells the case when the bullet is seated...I recall reading about this in some book. Perhaps reverse taper is the wrong word...It supposedly keeps the bullets from setting back, under recoil..

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,

I see what you're saying. If the ammo can be relied upon, and I have never had the problems with it some people have, then you make excellent sense - as usual. It's the folks who want something besides a .458 who cite bad ammo as a problem, then select a caliber because it will shoot the .458 I don't understand.

Telly

Ray,

I understand.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Longbob:
Hi Longbob,
I think we all understand about the 458 Win being the saviour in the lost luggage affair but here are a couple of questions. How much time and effort are put into load development , bullet selection and practice with you rifle that your taking to Africa. Plenty I'll bet. Both cartridges will shoot the 458 Win ammo. Lets forget about reloading the brass because we don't have a 458 Win. It's understood that the Lott may do it a little better with the 458 Win ammo than the Ackley but what are we actually talking about, 50- 100 fps. The biggest benefit is that your familiar with your rifle. Are you willing to take your rifle with the best available bullets at 2300 fps sighted in so softs and solids impact to the same point of impact and now throw in factory 458 Win loads that you don't know the velocity of. Your not sure what the trajectory will be, the bullets may be the ones everyone is saying are no good but it's all thats available and your new softs and solids don't hit within 6 inches of each other at fifty yards and feel compfortable with it. I don't really think so, you may use it but you couldn't really feel good. Check ahead and find out what is available with your outfitter incase you can't recover your luggage. What I would be curious about is if you could send ammo over to your outfitter well in advance as well as take your own when you go.

Fat Bastard,
I measured up the 450 Ackley and the 458 Winchester to see about the case mouth issue you mentioned. I also tried feeding 458 Win ammo in the Ackley and they went in like butter. The bullet guides the cartridge and with the taper of the small shoulder on the Ackley even on a slow feed you can't feel it.
I would be curious to chronogragh some 458 Win in the Ackley and the Lott. I guess it all comes down to how well 458 Lott or 450 Ackley names roll off the tongue.

470 Mbogo

470,

With all due respect. How complicated are you trying to make this? It is Lott ammo all the way and the 458 Win. Mag. as a LAST resort. At least it is an option.

I would think that I would have time to sight in the 458 Win. Mag. ammo if it came to that. I don't believe that I would be out in the bush when I discover that I am out of Lott ammo and catch myself saying "quick, hand me some of that inferior 458 Win. Mag ammo!"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Longbob:
Longbob,
Oops I slipped into picking fly shit out of pepper mode. Hope I didn't loose my PHD in common sense. There is little to choose between the two cartridges and an option is available. Still take the two days. With mutual respect. 470 Mbogo

RA,
I found that round, it's the 450 Watts and it appears the round is a full lenth 375 H&H necke up to 458 and the "prior to fireforming" is a swelling of the case where the bullet was seated..apparently you were correct in your correction of my post...but never to be daunted there is one round with a reverse taper..

Anybody care to take a shot at what that round might be??

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

700 Nitro?

Nope, it is the Manard, looks like and ice cream cone....

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

That was my next guess.

There something strange going on here, besides the Lott people liking the Lott and the Ackley people liking the Ackley, have ya'll noticed the Lott people don't like the Ackley and the Ackley people don't like the Lott and Longbobs 2nd guess was the Maynard...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,

If we can stand back and put our biases asside, hmm can't think of a really good reason to do that, anyhow, I think sometimes we look at minutia when we entrench ourselves in our cartridge choices.

I had a lott, and still think of the H&H based rounds, its the best, by a narrow margin. I sold it off, and am having John Ricks craft me essentially a 450 G&A. I get the same performance out the tube, can't use win mag ammo, but do have it assembled on an M98 w/o all the metal removal and shenanigans involved in making a mag length round function through it.

I think I have the ammo situation handled is well. If/when I go after Mbogo, I'll pack the 458 and the 500 Jeffrey, and have ammo in both my wife's and my luggage. I have two complete rifles, and ammo.

What's really funny about this is, the Ackley fan says, why on earth would you have a lott, when you can make an ackley and get 50 fps more? The lott fan says, who cares about 2350 vs 2300, when I shoot 458 win mags due to lost ammo, I get 2000 fps instead of 1950 fps.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul H:
Paul,
Are you going after 375 Mbogo or 470 Mbogo? If it's 470 please make yourself a cannon that will shoot either Kokanee's or Budweisers. 470 Mbogo

Out of curiosity which do you think there are more rifles chambered for, the Ackley or the Lott?

I wonder which would be more likely to become an actual factory round someday? with factory rifles produced as "normal" production. Neither is creating a back log for gun manufacturers I'm sure. I was just thinking out loud.jj

------------------
The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

JJ,

I think if one was to become a factory chambering it would be the 458 Lott.

As to the most common I think that would vary with different areas. I have seen a few 450 Ackleys in Australia but I have never seen a 458 Lott out here. But that probably relates more to reamer availability than shooter's choice.

If I was having one made myself I would choose the Lott, but that would be simply becuase i think it would be better for cast bullets since all the grease grooves could be covered.

If I was only going to use jacketed bullets i would probably choose the 450 Ackley because I think when all else is equal, bottle neck calibers are easy to load for.

Mike

Gentlemen:
For-It-Is-Worth department. I have fired .458 win. in the lott chamber and it only lost 15fps . I do not think I would go for the Ackely just for 50fps. If I wanted more veloicty, I would try one of the larger
45 caliber cases.
George

Well if were going to venture off the two in question I believe the 460 G&A may be the best of design or perhaps its shorter version the 450 G&A that Paul H uses.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com