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From the RSA a shooting friend in a shootout !

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24 June 2004, 04:27
BFaucett
From the RSA a shooting friend in a shootout !
Quote:

Poster ALF:



Gentlemen:



The responses are most enlightning and I thought as US citizens you are all equal etc etc etc, but it would seem you are not all equal and the right to bear arms is reserved for a select group of people within your society.

......<snip>............







ALF,



Well, there is some truth to that (as there is in any society) but don't forget that the USA is composed of 50 different states. In addition to Federal laws, which apply to the entire country, each state has its own laws concerning firearms; especially laws concerning the right to carry a handgun (or not). State law only applies within that state.



In New York City, it's basically only the "priviledged" that can get a handgun carry permit through political connections. (New York City laws are even more stringent that New York State laws. One of our New Yorkers here can provide a better explanation.) In Texas, our state law says that if you pass the criminal background check, and attend a certification class and pass the tests, then you will be issued a Texas Concealed Handgun License.









-Bob F.
24 June 2004, 04:36
MacD37
Quote:

ALF,



Please forgive me, but that is a ridiculous comment. A "polite society" requires more than an armed citizenry and sensible or no gun control.



First and foremost, it must have a functioning and at least modestly effective GOVERNMENT, including a police force and court system that have the will to and actually do enforce the rule of law.



The latter is the sine qua non of any "polite society" and it is sadly lacking in the examples you cite.





ALF, here above is what I was trying to say, the people you have pictured are the result of the disarming of the LAW ABIDING CITIZENS so they may not shoot back and rid the country side of this scum! The killing of whites, in RSA, and now Zimbabwe, are seen as "GOOD RIDDENCE" crimes,by the black government, and are not followed up on!They simply pass another law against gun, and ammo ownership, and nobody abides by it but the law abiding whites.



Your so called gun control is not the answer,and as Mrlexma says above , and as I said in my post, the shit for brains gov in RSA is looking the other way, and allowing this to happen, while disarming the good people so they can't protect themselves. Africa is no different from any place in the world, where the law enfosement is not utilized to attack crime, but fosters it by it's uncareing attitude! The Black gov in RSA are far more interested in long black limos, and shopping trips to Engalnd, than they are in protecting the white population of their own country. Once the whites are all, either killed, or forced out of the country, then you will see the roving mobs get shot by the police, but not untill they've done their grizzly work for the powers that be! Gun control is not crime fighting, it is effectively allowing ethnic genicide, because you will not make anyone believe that the criminals you have shown here are LEGALLY ARMED ! They don't care how many gun laws you write, they will continue, as long as the law enforcement bodies allows them to run the streets with impunity! Africa is not uneque, let a white man walk down the streets of Detroit's south side, or the second front of El paso Texas, the nature of criminals will bear it's toothy head. The difference is we can fight back, and the law will go down there and get the bastards who shoot, torture, and mame others! It is my beliefe that half the murders of whites in RSA are done by the police themselves, and the others are done by the families of some of the police!



For a few of the elite, like yourself,who have friends in high places, protection is afforded,for the time being, till they no longer need you, but the poor Africaner farmer who lives out in the bush, is helpless, if he has no arms to fight with. The law doesn't care what the black popultion does, as long as it stays on white

land owner , or each other, and leaves the heads of state alone to drive around in their big limos!



The armed law abiding citizenry, backed by proper laws, to regulate CRIME, and CRIMENALS, backed by an honest government keeps honest men safe!



The white of RSA have absolutely no hope of fair play from their government, while being systematiclly disarmed in the face of slaughter by the roveing black criminals, while the law looks the other way! Where is your gun control for those bastards riding on that truck, or that evil kid in the street? It is nonexistant, but the whites are giveing their guns up to this one sided law! NO law in the world will stop crime, if it is enforsed only on the innocent, and the criminals are left alone, like in RSA, and Zimbabwe! CRIMINAL CONTROL is what you need, not a ban on a TOOL! Now I'm through with this sickening string of idiocy!
24 June 2004, 11:22
ALF
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24 June 2004, 12:20
BFaucett
ALF,

Go check out this web page:
http://www.lp.org/issues/gun-rights.html

It sums up my views better than I can state them.

-Bob F.
24 June 2004, 14:11
MacD37
ALF, the reason I say "YOUR " gun laws is, because you seem to go along with the gun grabbers, as long as it doesn't effect you personally. The fact that all those bastards doing all the killing in RSA, and ZIM are illegally armed, should be the first clue, that gun grab on a wholesale basis is not the way to stop it. The fact is it is not the gun laws everyone is so against, it is that they are only applied against the innocent, and the criminal element is not only un-effected, but is, in fact, aided by them! The key is not to make a law against a tool, but target, and convict the individual OFFENDER, not everyone! You of all people should understand that! I would think nobody is in danger from your firearms, and takeing your's away accomplishes nothing other than to disarm you, against crime. The law should apply to the crininal,and his act, not his tool, other than to take his tool into consideration when meeteing out punishment.

I own over a hundred guns, and not one of them has ever hurt anyone since I've owned them, and unless someone breaks in on me, or trys hyjacking me, they never will. I am a law abideing citizen, and the right to bear arms, is NOT A PRIVILAGE, it is a right guarinteed me under the CONSTITUTION of the USA.

ASK the AUSSIES if gun control works, when because of the act of one man with one gun, in one place, confiscateing thousands of guns, owned by honest citizens, the now unarmed the folks on stations, a thousand miles away from that act, in the outback are haveing to run from the illegally armed criminals commiting home invasions, because the criminal knows, now, the people aren't armed. The fact is, gun laws do not work, but exaserbates crime! The armed home owner, and aggressive poilce work does deter crime.
24 June 2004, 14:53
ALF
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24 June 2004, 15:58
500grains
Quote:


In your world you are assuming everyone within your population are of socioecomic background and psychological makeup to handle the repsonsibilities of gun ownership. Are they?




Then who decides? Some liberal in Ottowa?
24 June 2004, 18:36
Russ Gould
God forbid that we learn ANYTHING from Canada when it comes to guns. What a cock-up that is. The UK and Australia have gone down the confiscation path and their crime statistics are way up. Why Canada doesn't have the same problem I can't say. Perhaps because it's generally speaking a very affluent country with generous social programs and very few down-and-outs. Or perhaps the natives Alf refers to are rural as opposed to urban.

Why you are correct in pointing out that widespread handgun ownership brings with it a bunch of low-lifes with fluids leaking out of them, one could view that as a good thing. It is certainly preferable to the scenario where the good guys are leaking....and that's what you get when you disarm the honest citizenry in a society that's well armed.
25 June 2004, 02:35
rick3foxes
Quote:



I moved form the RSA where Both I and my wife packed guns to Canada where I now live in a community who subsist on Moosemeat, just about everyone here North hunt and own some form of firearm.

They do not however have handguns, the laws and control of handguns are very tight.




Alf, what you meant to say is that the law-abiding citizens in Canada don't have handguns because of the tight laws. Nobody is stupid enough to believe that laws prevent criminals from owning guns. If criminals cared anything about laws, they wouldn't be criminals.


Quote:


... in Cape Town where rival gangsters would be shooting it out in the ER let alone in the streets?

What is more astounding about Canada is that it sports only 900 odd homicides a year of which a scant 300 are gun related.




Alf, do you believe that the proportion of gangsters in the population is the same in Canada as it is in South Africa? If RSA passed the same laws as Canada, would the violence stop?

Rick.
25 June 2004, 04:34
MacD37
Quote:

I moved form the RSA where Both I and my wife packed guns to Canada where I now live in a community who subsist on Moosemeat,Just about everyone here North hunt and own some form of firearm.

They do not however have handguns, the laws and control of handguns are very tight.

So as a doc working with trauma in an ER how many gunshot wounds have I seen in 5 years? Exactly one and it was a "shooting accident" where some idiot had a loaded rifle on a rack on a ATV and shot himself in the thigh.

Not one handgun shooting incident and we have 40% plus native population who have a high incidence of alcohol, family abuse and just plain fighting..... now I wonder what it would be like if all these folks were packing?

Would it take me back to the Trauma Unit at Groote Schuur in Cape Town where rival gangsters would be shooting it out in the ER let alone in the streets?

What is more astounding about Canada is that it sports only 900 odd homicides a year of which a scant 300 are gun related.



MY POINT EXACTLY! It makes no difference if it is a handgun, or rifle, a firearm is a firearm! You moved FROM a place where all guns are heavily regulated, not just handguns, but rifles, shotguns as well, and there is still roveing gangs in the streets doing what they please, and most are useing AK47s not handguns! The absolute fact is, where you are now, there are no MAU MAU, or in fact, blacks at all. Yet the people with their rifles, and shotguns are not running the streets of BC twenty to a toyota with machineguns sloughtering whites, simply because they are white. gun control is not the reason that doesn't happen in BC, these are civilized people, that is the difference. Honesty,stability, and the barberic nature of a certain segment of RSA's population, can not be legeslated with the regulation of tools.

First you have no bush black population, but you do have police who would have the army out in force if one raid on a farm or ranch were asaulted in the manner they are in RSA. The problem is, in Africa, the white population has no support against the black murderers. This is not a gun issue, it is a shit government, that doesn't enforce any law, except to disarm the whites, and then look the other way while innocent people are being sloughtered!

Not all People in the USA, are , as you put it PACKING, because unless they are law abideing citizens, they will not be issued a carry concieled permit. That is gun control useing your deffintion, but even that, in no way restricts anyone from carrying illegally. In TEXAS rifles and shotguns are not regulated at all, and never have been. It is legal, in Texas to carry a loaded rifle or shotgun anyplace you wish, and always has been, yet you don't see as much violent crime in the whole state, as you do in one city like LA where it is illegal to carry any firearm, loaded or otherwise! Yet people are murdered with illegal firearms every day there.

What Americans mean by gun control is limiting the ownership of guns of any type, even for law abideing citizens. When you are in danger from 30 or 40 AK47 carrying thugs, bent on killing, and your government will not allow you to own a firearm along with enough ammo to protect you home, is what I mean by the gun control not working to detere crime. The thugs are not hendered from haveing ak47s, and thousands of rounds of ammo, yet the man who respects the law is baciclly unarmed, by the government that is supposed to protect him, and allow him to protect himself.

Everyone of these hundreds of shootings you see in the OR in RSA, and the shootouts in the OR, 99.5% were done with guns they were not supposed to have! They were outlawed, but did it stop them from haveing them? Hell no, and in BC if you have a person bent on murder, he will damn sure shoot you with that moose rifle, or chop your head off with his firewood axe. The difference is,the area where you live now is a country where the rule of law has been inforced long enough so the population knows the cost of breaking the law. Additionally BC has no black African population, who damn sure are the problem in RSA, not guns in the hands of the innocent. The gun control in Canada, has absolutely nothing to do with the general state of CIVILATION there, it is that most people are basicly good people there, and are not prone to the very barberic killings that take place on the unarmed white farms in RSA. If a woman is gang raped, the man of the house gutted alive, and their tree month old baby girl wrapped in news paper, and burned alive, all done without guns,if done in Canada, the army, police, and every moose hunter there, would be scouring the streets, and woods looking for the perps. This happens daily in RSA, but nobody in the government even investigates. That is the reason you have a civil society in BC, these acts never even occure in the minds of civilized people, but when the governemnt,and police, see this type activity, as normal, nothing will change. Takeing the guns away from the victims, is not the answer, no matter what you see in the OR of any country. The mindset of the people has nothing to do with the availability of firearms, but not haveing firearms where this mindset is not only in the minds of one segment of a society, but in the government that is wholely made up of that same segment of that society, is lunacy! Even in Canada, if a man can be trusted with a rifle or shotgun, why can't that man be trusted with a handgun. It is far easier for him to kill you with a rifle or shotgun than with a handgun! Don't even start with ease of concielment of a handgun. a hacksaw, and five minutes will make a 12 ga as concielable as any handgun
.


This will never be settled between you and I, because we are from different worlds, but I will take my world over RSA, OR even the very restrictive Canada, any time! I will guarintee you the crap that goes on in RSA would not be tollerated by my government,or Canada's, as it is by the black government in RSA!
25 June 2004, 05:51
NitroX
Quote:

ASK the AUSSIES if gun control works, when because of the act of one man with one gun, in one place, confiscateing thousands of guns, owned by honest citizens, the now unarmed the folks on stations, a thousand miles away from that act, in the outback are haveing to run from the illegally armed criminals commiting home invasions, because the criminal knows, now, the people aren't armed. The fact is, gun laws do not work, but exaserbates crime! The armed home owner, and aggressive poilce work does deter crime.



Mac

What makes you think Aussie stations no longer have any firearms?


Alf

Some frightening photographs you posted. Some very bad "men". Young teenagers with automatic weapons and no consciences.
25 June 2004, 06:16
mehulkamdar
Just my 2c and I'm not trying to get into an argument with anyone here, but I come from a country with a long tradition of hunting where the ownership of guns has been extremely restricted since 1984 and the socialists have put an end to almost all hunting with the exception of crop protection now.

It started quite innocuously enough in 1979, I think, when the ownership age was raised from 16 years to 21. Then one by one came a number of restrictions and prohibitions - limiting the ownership of guns to three a head, caliber restrictions to 8 mm for rifles and .32 cal for handguns and finally a ban on importing guns altogether.

One man, a former Chief Minister of India's most populous state, Gobind Manihar Singh took the Central (Federal) government on in the courts and in recent years we have got some relief in the sense that the three gun limit does not apply to ISU target firearms and the caliber restrictions have been lifted altogether by our Supreme Court.

However, it is in the area of personal defence that there has been a radical change in the laws. Both of the socialists who brought in the restrictions, Indira Gandhi and her son Rajiv (close friends of Mandela and probably Mbeki as well) were assassinated and interim governments changed the rules to arm people in what are declared as disturbed areas. Yes, if you live in a part of India that has a terrorist or seccessionist insurrection or Maoist Communist problems, you can volunteer to serve on what are called "village defence committees" and the government arms you with an FAL rifle in farms and village areas and automatic pistols from the army/paramilitaries in small towns besides providing you with ammunition for practise and defensive use. The only conditions are that you need to have a clean background and need to practice shooting as well as attend a committee meeting once every two weeks.

Hopefully, though, since the Supreme Court has thrown all of the restrictions that have come before ti so far, we shall see the limit on number of guns and the ban on imports thrown out soon.

Good hunting!
26 June 2004, 03:50
rick3foxes
Mehul, it's good to hear that in some places the practice of disarming the citizenry may be doing an about-face....

Rick.
26 June 2004, 04:37
ALF
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