The Accurate Reloading Forums
PH casualties
26 July 2012, 07:01
gunslinger55PH casualties
I heard of the two recent PH deaths and I believe someone said that there was another in the CAR or something? An individual I am hunting with wants to know as I am hunting in Mozambique in Oct. and was wondering wheter this was an anomaly or a bad year?
Thanks in advance
White Mountains Arizona
26 July 2012, 08:21
CrazyhorseconsultingHave no experience what so ever in Africa, but my uneducated guess is that things just worked out the way they did.
The PH's were doing what they loved. They knew the chance they were taking, but they did it anyway.
Even the rocks don't last forever.
It is a high risk profession, and even though some are more cautious than others, events happen.
When I hunted with renowned PH John Knowles, he observed that he was one of only two PHs he knew that had never been clawed by a leopard, and just that season, the other could no longer make that claim.
Some time I'll have to tell the story of sitting in a thatched blind in the last light of sunset with him--and his unease at my shooting prowess--when the leopard came up behind the blind.
A few years ago, he suffered the tragedy of a European woman client's accidentally killing one of his trackers. So, stuff happens.
Norman Solberg
International lawyer back in the US after 25 years and, having met a few of the bad guys and governments here and around the world, now focusing on private trusts that protect wealth from them. NRA Life Member for 50 years, NRA Endowment Member from 2014, NRA Patron from 2016.
26 July 2012, 09:34
pagosawingnutHowever often it happens, is too often. Some of it can be discounted to bad luck. Wrong place at the wrong time. Some of it can be traced to the tenacity of the game they are after. Some of it can be related to the bad/borderline/poor shooting of both the PH and the client. And then it could be just luck of the draw. As I said, however often is too often.
26 July 2012, 10:52
gunslinger55I agree with the above posts. I was really wondering if anyone knows of the third PH killed in the last several months. I believe I read something about it just wanted some details
Thanks
White Mountains Arizona
Gentlemen,
There might have been a slight spike in the occurance of PHs getting hurt this year.
But, we might also take into consideration that due to the Internet, we hear news much faster than in the past.
Every time I go on safari, I hear of accidents like these without having heard of them before.
26 July 2012, 13:38
Bwanamichadd to the list a client that got knocked and stomped properly by a buff......but will live to hunt another day.
"...Them, they were Giants!"
J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa
hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset
26 July 2012, 14:42
fujotupuquote:
Originally posted by Bwanamich:
add to the list a client that got knocked and stomped properly by a buff......but will live to hunt another day.
Shush....don't say where and with whom
What difference should it make with whom he was hunting?
I think in most cases something like this happens due to just bad luck.
26 July 2012, 15:34
fujotupuquote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
What difference should it make with whom he was hunting?
I think in most cases something like this happens due to just bad luck.
Luck does indeed play a part but in a lot of cases it is the result of pushing it too far and in other such circumstances it boils down to plain negligence and taking things for granted - especially when it involves the buffalo in Masailand.
26 July 2012, 16:19
Bwanamichdon't think it was a secret i guess because it was not life threatening the story ended in the bush
previously unwounded, non masailand
Buff charged out of long grass at very close quarters, brushed past the ph, client fired but did not stop the charge, got thrown in the air and landed face down in fornt of the buff. buff proceeded, as they do, to cut him up around the head, neck and back with his hooves before finally being shot down. Client spent a week in hospital in Nbi being cleaned up and stitched and should be out by now.
Post Mortem inspection unearthed a poachers slug in its shoulder
PS - Was not one of our clients
"...Them, they were Giants!"
J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa
hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset
Every year we are hunting, things happen that open our eyes how careless we have been.
Only due to sheer luck we have not had a bad occurance.
Last year, I shot a sable, and he took off. We ran after him. We found the tracks and blood, and continued running after him.
Suddenly, one of the trackers, who was behind us, shouted, pointing slightly uphill and behind us.
There was the sable lying down, still alive, less than 10 yards away!
I fired a shot at him to finish him off.
We thought afterwards that if that was a buffalo, we would most likely have gotten charged from behind!
26 July 2012, 16:52
Todd Williamsquote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Gentlemen,
There might have been a slight spike in the occurance of PHs getting hurt this year.
But, we might also take into consideration that due to the Internet, we hear news much faster than in the past.
Every time I go on safari, I hear of accidents like these without having heard of them before.
I think this pretty much sums it up. I hear of accidents that don't make it to the internet forums, every time I go over as well.
26 July 2012, 16:59
fujotupuBwanamich:
In addition to the incident you pointed there was yet another which happened either a day before or a day after the tragedy - hunting buffalo in dense thickets when one materialized out of nowhere taking one of the clients smack centre front - luckily he only bore the brunt of the boss and was not gored, ended up with a good bruising and not so fond memories of the encounter.
P.S. This was a genuine Masailand thoroughbred of the pissed-off-early-morning type.
26 July 2012, 19:56
Michael RobinsonEven if the annual average were as much as three fatalities per season, and it isn't, these incidents would still be extremely rare.
Of course, they do happen, and not all make the "news" or even the rumor mill. It is good to learn about them, and what caused them, as not all of them are simply the result of bad luck.
Mike
Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
27 July 2012, 01:13
ivan carteri agree with saeed , there are incidents every year and its just getting to the internet faster these days ...
at any rate always a great tragedy when these things occur and great men are lost.
somehow always seems a LOT closer when they are from ones own community ...
27 July 2012, 01:48
Tom In TennesseeAnd game catchers and farmers get killed or maimed every year too....have we become too familiar due to TV and video and past experiences??
27 July 2012, 05:22
LionHunterIn a recent conversation with Aaron regarding these incidents, I gave some thought to the PHs/outfitters with whom I have hunted over the years. This is just off the top of my head and those I can remember who have been hit by DG. Others may have also been hit, unbeknown to me, while some were PG only PHs.
Cliff Walker
Doug Scandrol
Peter Chipman
Owain Lewis - KIA
Len Taylor - bare miss
Pierre Vorster
The responsible culprits have been Lion, Leopard, Elephant and mostly Cape Buffalo. A number of trackers I've worked with have also been hit. I have personally stopped two charges, one I brained mere feet in front of me.
The above is why many of us who have some level of experience with DG are so bothered by those who decide to hunt DG but haven't a clue. This week I watched an Ele hunt where the client used a double. Dropped his Ele (wounded) and had to be told to re-load - repeatedly. He fumbled his spare rounds out of his left front pocket - he was a right hand shooter. He wore no visible ammunition on his person. WTF!
THIS IS A DANGEROUS GAME WE PLAY and survival is not guaranteed, which is why it behooves anyone who chooses to hunt DG to be well prepared.
Mike
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27 July 2012, 05:49
pagosawingnutTo be stomped and pulled apart by an elephant or gored and trampled by a buffalo was never on my bucket list. For the first timers, I wonder if this is the new "been there, done that"
I do realize that each of us, even the PH's had to have a first time but, are we really prepared? I go with the realization that ANYTHING bad can happen. But I hope that I have prepare myself so that I am not the cause of someone else's demise.
27 July 2012, 06:11
highlanderOr if your like me and work in Health and Safety I would argue that most injuries represent the outcome of a causal process ,and are far from chance or random. Luck only comes into when you assess the degree of injury!
27 July 2012, 07:22
jdollarbottom line is that if the client doesn't screw up the first shot, these things rarely happen. charges out of nowhere do occur but are the exception rather than the rule
Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend…
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27 July 2012, 08:12
LionHunterquote:
Originally posted by highlander:
Or if your like me and work in Health and Safety I would argue that most injuries represent the outcome of a causal process ,and are far from chance or random. Luck only comes into when you assess the degree of injury!
highlander,
I particularly like your observation of "a casual process..." being more likely the causation than random chance. I could not agree more. And as
pagosawingnut observes in his post above yours "...I wonder if this is the new "been there, done that"."
Mike
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What I find extremely sad is the fact that so many people have fallen for the idiotic antics of Mark Sullivan, who went out of his way to induce charges, so he can his few minutes of fame.
I have been told by a number of hunters that their PHs have suggested that they walk up to a downed buffalo, saying things like "let us see if he has any guts to charge!"
28 July 2012, 14:56
GanyanaAny fool can get charged. stopping a charge is mostly skill but also a little bit of luck. I have seen too many bullet failures to to ever 'trust' 100% that I will be able to stop a charge. It is now 27 years since I last personally experienced 'bullet failure', but I have seen where a PH and his client were darned lucky just last year- PH's bullet broke up on a charging elephant, but the ele stopped and turned away at the shot and the PH was able to drop it. Had the ele pressed home the charge, somebody would probably have died. Had a close call on the rifa training course a decade back when a Learner Guide hit a chargin ele with a .458 Lott- Penetration of about 4" but the ele turned and ran off and was killed a couple of minutes later by Warren thorne and a couple of other LPH's...Owains death this year- bullet failure seems the most likely explanation why they failed to drop the buff.
Given the chances of something going wrong with either rifle or ammo one has to say 'I got away with it' when you actually do have to face and sucessfully stop a charge. Skill is vital but the need to rely on luck tells me that one shouldn't put one self intentionally in front of a charge. Luck always runs out sooner or later.
28 July 2012, 15:58
fujotupu""PH's bullet broke up on a charging elephant, but the ele stopped and turned away at the shot and the PH was able to drop it.""
The PH was not using a 375 was he?
28 July 2012, 16:45
GanyanaNo, 470NE.
You see more bullet failures with clients ammo- because they do most of the shooting. On the PH exams have seen the PMP brass mono's break up. One on a chest shot (frontal) at about 4 paces and one on a quatering on brain shot. Seen a .375 woodleigh bend and deviate on a side brain shot (bullet hit the Zygomatic arch) on the 2004 exam. But on the same exam had a federal solid from a .458 win tumble and fail to penetrate.
At least a couple of times a year you see or hear of clients bullets failing - but like I say, they shoot alot more and carry a wider range of ammo that generally isn't available here. With the best bullets though there are always a few failures. Not every year, but a constant trickle.
28 July 2012, 17:09
Aaron Neilsonquote:
Originally posted by Ganyana:
Any fool can get charged. stopping a charge is mostly skill but also a little bit of luck. I have seen too many bullet failures to to ever 'trust' 100% that I will be able to stop a charge. It is now 27 years since I last personally experienced 'bullet failure', but I have seen where a PH and his client were darned lucky just last year- PH's bullet broke up on a charging elephant, but the ele stopped and turned away at the shot and the PH was able to drop it. Had the ele pressed home the charge, somebody would probably have died. Had a close call on the rifa training course a decade back when a Learner Guide hit a chargin ele with a .458 Lott- Penetration of about 4" but the ele turned and ran off and was killed a couple of minutes later by Warren thorne and a couple of other LPH's...Owains death this year- bullet failure seems the most likely explanation why they failed to drop the buff.
Given the chances of something going wrong with either rifle or ammo one has to say 'I got away with it' when you actually do have to face and sucessfully stop a charge. Skill is vital but the need to rely on luck tells me that one shouldn't put one self intentionally in front of a charge. Luck always runs out sooner or later.
Ganyana - Its 2012 now, bullet failure is mostly a thing of the past - or at least it should be. In particular with quality bullets, like Barnes, and certainly the newest/best thing going - the CEB's (Cutting Edge Bullets). Not to say it can't happen, I would never say that - but the likelihood is much less today than it was in "your day"
The problem that I still see frequently, is almost every darn PH I have ever hunted with - is himself using crappy/old ammo??? They always seem to have 12 rounds on their belt, and 3 different kinds of brass, different bullets, etc, etc??? Some of them look 20 yrs old, others are 20 yrs old - etc. Frankly, I've never seen a bullet fail - but then again, I've always used good/quality ammo, never the cheap stuff, and I always make sure its in good condition. Like everything else in life, when it comes to bullets - you get what you pay for.
My friend, I was at the Owain Lewis tragedy just hrs after it happened - the failure to stop the buffalo had nothing to do with bullet failure, and everything to do with not shooting it in the right place, period! Luck or lack there of, will always play a part in these situations - always. Call it luck, call it fate, call it what you will - but sometimes its on your side, and sometimes its not. Just the fact that the buffalo decided to "charge", rather than run, was in itself - a form of "luck". In this case, "bad luck" unfortunately.
Guys - If you are concerned about ammo/bullet failure, I sincerely encourage you to look at and try the CEB's (Cutting Edge Bullets) I've never seen anything that is as accurate, dependable, and DEEP penetrating as the CEB's - never!!!!!
Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
303-619-2872: Cell
globalhunts@aol.com
www.huntghr.com 28 July 2012, 18:00
fujotupuGanyana:
What you say is very interesting - it just goes to show that the big bores, even when a bullet fractures, still has sufficient energy to stop the charge and in cases like this one, turn the animal giving the PH sufficient time to apply the decisive shot.
I would call that "Stopping Power".
One may well say the exact same thing about North Fork Bullets!
Gunslinger. Everyone doing what we all do, and that is, forget the question being asked by the time we get to the end of the paragraph. There was a PH killed in Tanzania, I think, last year. Well known, was a PH because otherwise well off. Was killed by some poachers, when his men spotted some "blue" color in an area and drove up to investigate, and the poachers opened up on them. Kinda an ambush. If you search african PH murdered, it might bring it up. Hope this helps.
28 July 2012, 22:30
dwarf416Last year Kanja (the best tacker I have ever seen in 17 safaris was gutted by a Bongo)Bayed by the dogs the bongo charged and opened him clean. (he luckly survived)
This year Orlando Cardoso( Nsok safaris) was severely mauled by a Bongo and had to be evacuated with 3 broken ribs and bruises. This same year a French Ph, don´t remember the name was hunting with another company was killed by a Bongo. Did not get into the internet.
I had a total failure with my 3rd shoot with a 500 jeffrey ( Westley Richards) The ammo was brand new and was provided by Westley Richards (brand new)I was lucky the elephant was escaping and not charging and the other 2 shoots where good.
If the elephant had been charging I would have depended only on the Ph.
diego
28 July 2012, 23:32
fujotupuGotta watch dem Bongos - mauling PHs like they was a Leopard
Dwarf, I reckon your Westley may need some serious maintenance - don't be in a rush blaming the ammo.
29 July 2012, 00:01
gunslinger55Ok I am getting that it may be a more common occurance than first thought. Bongo? Really those things sound like the new DG trophy
I'll do some googling
White Mountains Arizona
29 July 2012, 00:03
LionHunterI know for a fact that Owain Lewis had trouble finding ammo for his double rifle, but I believe Aaron reported that he was armed with a bolt gun when the Buff got to him.
I have also observed PH ammo belts with an assortment of "old" and different loads rather than same-same current ammunition. I believe this to be a serious problem and one that should be addressed by the professional hunter organizations. How many PHs do you think replace their unused ammo every season? Think about that for a minute; they carry their ammo on their belt, daily, all season, through rain, dust and 100+ degree heat, and rarely fire a shot. What condition is that ammo in after a full season? Would you trust your life to it? Well, in actuality, you do!
I second Aaron's statements about the CEB bullets, and the North Forks as well. I don't believe there are any better bullets available for DG hunting on todays' market. If you are not a re-loader, you can have Superior Ammunition load these bullets for you, with full confidence.
Mike
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29 July 2012, 03:41
465H&HIf it didn't happen occasionally it wouldn't be called dangerous game hunting.
465H&H
quote:
We all look for reasons and then proceed, with due caution, but the real lesson is to live well and enjoy this life, the best you can. When Ol' Mr. Death comes for us, as he will, nobody is going to take our place.
Well said G. Hansen.
"There are worse memorials to a life well-lived than a pair of elephant tusks." Robert Ruark
29 July 2012, 05:31
dwarf416Sorr for my poor english. Mauled is not the correct word I was trying to use. Crashed, banged squeezed, i don´t know you can choose the word. I am more fluent in spanish but I will keep trying!
The westley is very well looked after allthought it is not mine and the bullet looked as if fired but the BANG did not happen
Bongos do charge in the rainforest, and they are quiet big.
This is first hand info, no kidding
diego
29 July 2012, 05:50
465H&Hquote:
Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
quote:
Originally posted by Ganyana:
Any fool can get charged. stopping a charge is mostly skill but also a little bit of luck. I have seen too many bullet failures to to ever 'trust' 100% that I will be able to stop a charge. It is now 27 years since I last personally experienced 'bullet failure', but I have seen where a PH and his client were darned lucky just last year- PH's bullet broke up on a charging elephant, but the ele stopped and turned away at the shot and the PH was able to drop it. Had the ele pressed home the charge, somebody would probably have died. Had a close call on the rifa training course a decade back when a Learner Guide hit a chargin ele with a .458 Lott- Penetration of about 4" but the ele turned and ran off and was killed a couple of minutes later by Warren thorne and a couple of other LPH's...Owains death this year- bullet failure seems the most likely explanation why they failed to drop the buff.
Given the chances of something going wrong with either rifle or ammo one has to say 'I got away with it' when you actually do have to face and sucessfully stop a charge. Skill is vital but the need to rely on luck tells me that one shouldn't put one self intentionally in front of a charge. Luck always runs out sooner or later.
Ganyana - Its 2012 now, bullet failure is mostly a thing of the past - or at least it should be. In particular with quality bullets, like Barnes, and certainly the newest/best thing going - the CEB's (Cutting Edge Bullets). Not to say it can't happen, I would never say that - but the likelihood is much less today than it was in "your day"
The problem that I still see frequently, is almost every darn PH I have ever hunted with - is himself using crappy/old ammo??? They always seem to have 12 rounds on their belt, and 3 different kinds of brass, different bullets, etc, etc??? Some of them look 20 yrs old, others are 20 yrs old - etc. Frankly, I've never seen a bullet fail - but then again, I've always used good/quality ammo, never the cheap stuff, and I always make sure its in good condition. Like everything else in life, when it comes to bullets - you get what you pay for.
My friend, I was at the Owain Lewis tragedy just hrs after it happened - the failure to stop the buffalo had nothing to do with bullet failure, and everything to do with not shooting it in the right place, period! Luck or lack there of, will always play a part in these situations - always. Call it luck, call it fate, call it what you will - but sometimes its on your side, and sometimes its not. Just the fact that the buffalo decided to "charge", rather than run, was in itself - a form of "luck". In this case, "bad luck" unfortunately.
Guys - If you are concerned about ammo/bullet failure, I sincerely encourage you to look at and try the CEB's (Cutting Edge Bullets) I've never seen anything that is as accurate, dependable, and DEEP penetrating as the CEB's - never!!!!!
Aaron,
You can add the North Fork FN and Woodleigh Hydro to that list of extreme penetrators. The two problems are that all are FN and will cause feeding issues in some bolt guns also none of them are available in any factory loads that I know of. Very few PHs are handloaders and good gunsmiths are also rare in most of Africa.
465H&H
29 July 2012, 05:55
bowen475I was the Client on the Bongo Hunt with Orlando Cordoso. From my perspective it was not a client problem or a PH problem--it was the Safari Operators problem. Orlando (an independent PH I might add)and I arrived in Nsok Camp to find that the pygmies had either eaten, sold or let die the Camp's hunting dogs!!! As the Safari Operator had no Rep in Camp,if i wanted to hunt Bongo, we were told I had to buy 8 dogs from the local villages WITH MY MONEY, without any idea whether or not these dogs would hunt or not. We got in real heavy cover situation with the Bongo we were tracking, the dogs didn't bay the Bongo and Orlando was ran over before ANYONE could react. Four days later after accompanying Orlando to the local hospital and back, still no Rep in Camp--so I went out alone with the trackers to try to hunt Bongo for the last few days of my Safari--ran 3 more Bongo--dogs would not bay any of them. Did shoot a giant forest hog. I was told by Operator who arrived about the time I was leaving that "this is africa", and he offered me a partial make up hunt, but couldn't understand why I was so angry. WTF
29 July 2012, 06:18
Aaron Neilsonquote:
Originally posted by 465H&H:
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
quote:
Originally posted by Ganyana:
Any fool can get charged. stopping a charge is mostly skill but also a little bit of luck. I have seen too many bullet failures to to ever 'trust' 100% that I will be able to stop a charge. It is now 27 years since I last personally experienced 'bullet failure', but I have seen where a PH and his client were darned lucky just last year- PH's bullet broke up on a charging elephant, but the ele stopped and turned away at the shot and the PH was able to drop it. Had the ele pressed home the charge, somebody would probably have died. Had a close call on the rifa training course a decade back when a Learner Guide hit a chargin ele with a .458 Lott- Penetration of about 4" but the ele turned and ran off and was killed a couple of minutes later by Warren thorne and a couple of other LPH's...Owains death this year- bullet failure seems the most likely explanation why they failed to drop the buff.
Given the chances of something going wrong with either rifle or ammo one has to say 'I got away with it' when you actually do have to face and sucessfully stop a charge. Skill is vital but the need to rely on luck tells me that one shouldn't put one self intentionally in front of a charge. Luck always runs out sooner or later.
Ganyana - Its 2012 now, bullet failure is mostly a thing of the past - or at least it should be. In particular with quality bullets, like Barnes, and certainly the newest/best thing going - the CEB's (Cutting Edge Bullets). Not to say it can't happen, I would never say that - but the likelihood is much less today than it was in "your day"
The problem that I still see frequently, is almost every darn PH I have ever hunted with - is himself using crappy/old ammo??? They always seem to have 12 rounds on their belt, and 3 different kinds of brass, different bullets, etc, etc??? Some of them look 20 yrs old, others are 20 yrs old - etc. Frankly, I've never seen a bullet fail - but then again, I've always used good/quality ammo, never the cheap stuff, and I always make sure its in good condition. Like everything else in life, when it comes to bullets - you get what you pay for.
My friend, I was at the Owain Lewis tragedy just hrs after it happened - the failure to stop the buffalo had nothing to do with bullet failure, and everything to do with not shooting it in the right place, period! Luck or lack there of, will always play a part in these situations - always. Call it luck, call it fate, call it what you will - but sometimes its on your side, and sometimes its not. Just the fact that the buffalo decided to "charge", rather than run, was in itself - a form of "luck". In this case, "bad luck" unfortunately.
Guys - If you are concerned about ammo/bullet failure, I sincerely encourage you to look at and try the CEB's (Cutting Edge Bullets) I've never seen anything that is as accurate, dependable, and DEEP penetrating as the CEB's - never!!!!!
Aaron,
You can add the North Fork FN and Woodleigh Hydro to that list of extreme penetrators. The two problems are that all are FN and will cause feeding issues in some bolt guns also none of them are available in any factory loads that I know of. Very few PHs are handloaders and good gunsmiths are also rare in most of Africa.
465H&H
465 - As for the North Fork's and Woodleigh's, I totally believe ya. I've never used them, but everyone who has - seems to share you're sentiments.
I have however used plenty of FN solids - both Barnes and more recently, the CEB's. I've used them mainly in my .375 RUM bolt gun, and a few times in my double rifle. I've never had a feeding issue in my bolt gun with good FN solids, ever???
I just gotta think that maybe "Ganyana" is getting old/out dated/poor quality bullets in Africa - to have experienced multiple bullet failures? I can't recall ever having it happen to me??? Pictured below is a CEB - FN solid fired from my .600NE, into a tuskless in late May. The bullet smashed through the right-rear hip bone, traveled through to the left shoulder, through it too, and stopped just under the skin. As one can see, its still in perfect condition too.
Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
303-619-2872: Cell
globalhunts@aol.com
www.huntghr.com 