Best defence handgun in cat blind

16 May 2012, 05:54

Whats the opinion on the Serbu super shorty (12 Ga 6 inch barrel) shotgun for ultimate protection in the lion blind? (Lou Hallamore carries a 44 mag, because its "better than peeling the cat off with my fingernails").
Fires a 480 gr hard cast slug etc.

16 May 2012, 05:59

Crazyhorseconsulting

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com...y_howdah/howdah.html

16 May 2012, 08:19

safari-lawyer

Shotguns are for birds. Shotgun pistols are for shooting and maiming people at close range. Neither are for lions.

Subject to that disclaimer, a PH with a super short 12ga pistol in a lion blind sounds like a good way to miss a lion and/or shoot something you didn't mean to shoot (the client, for example). Most clients and PHs are proficient with a rifle, not a pistol. I'd prefer that my PH and I both have our trusty rifles in hand when facing lions.

When I try for lion in 14 days, they'll be no pistols in the blind, in the car, or otherwise.

16 May 2012, 08:46

Navaluk

Absolutely stupid. Not surprising it's considered instead of the hard work learning your rifle.

Lou is no justification at all. He is stuck with any number and variety of morons and piss poor shots.

16 May 2012, 09:50

MacD37

Others may do as it suits, but the last thing I'd choose to defend myself from a 400 pound lion bent on chewing me up is a damn shotgun!
Give me a good 450NE double rifle with a pair of 480 grain softpoints!
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....................(x)

16 May 2012, 18:38

fairgame

Be sure to remove the iron sights from the handgun because when that cat shoves it up your arse it won't hurt as much, and it is easier to remove.

16 May 2012, 19:02

Thunder Head

quote:
Originally posted by fairgame:
Be sure to remove the iron sights from the handgun because when that cat shoves it up your arse it won't hurt as much, and it is easier to remove.

I just spit my drink all over my desk!

16 May 2012, 21:35

Brain1

I can tell you when I followed up my lion last year a pistol or shotgun was not on the to-do list. Neither are reliable stoppers when compared to a medium to large bore rifle. AS a police officer and handgun instructor I can tell you. You must practice twice as much with a hangun to be half as good as with a rifle.

16 May 2012, 22:14

Maximus Brutus

I think some are missing the point here. No pistol can ever replace the firepower and accuracy of a rifle. However, when you don't have the space to raise or aim a rifle then a pistol is a hell of a lot better than nothing at all.

16 May 2012, 22:25

TANZ-PH

I say: To each his own. But my .470 is leaning six inches from my chair armrest in all my lion blinds...and I'll stick with that. Rest assured, my 12g 3" mag shotgun will be in the blind too (in back with my tracker). But its the 470 I'll grab if anything to do with a lion!

16 May 2012, 22:40

465H&H

It seems that there is some misunderstanding of what the role of a sidearm is when hunting lion or leopard. any one that would recommend following up a wounded cat with one needs to visit the family psychiatrist. Its Role is as a back up weapon to be used if the cat gets you down and is chewing on you. At that close of quarters, a rifle is nearly useless. Having a short barreled 44 Mag in an open topped belt holster may just keep you from serious if not fatal injuries. It is much better than your pocket knife when that happens. Don Heath carries one and recommends others do so, when hunting cats.

465H&H

17 May 2012, 00:19

jaegerfrank

I guess this thread is not about following a wounded cat with a handgun as the priority tool but simply to have a handgun in the blind- which is done by quite a few serious PH and I appreciate that in educatwd hands.

17 May 2012, 00:46

N E 450 No2

While I too prefer a powerful rifle for cat hunting/protection, some times you might not beable to employ a rifle if attacked.

I carried a 4" 44 Mag on my first lion hunt, with 315 gr Garrett Hard Cast Ammo.

I carried a FA 475L on my next two Safaris, with 420gr Buffalo Bore Hard Cast Ammo.

17 May 2012, 00:49

fairgame

Not sure this scenario has ever occurred in history so would not worry.

17 May 2012, 01:04

Molepolole

Andrew - This scenario did happen to Harry Wolhuter in the early days of Kruger Park in 1903. He wasn't hunting lion but rather riding on horseback. He ended up killing the lion with a sheath knife, but I bet he wished he'd had a pistol. You can Google his name and find the story. It's a very famous story in Kruger Park's history. The lion's skin and sheath knife are on display in the Hamilton Library in Skukuza Camp in Kruger. If I could figure out how to size photos correctly in PhotoBucket I'd post one of my pics of it. Maybe Ann could post a photo of John Seerey-Lester's painting depicting the scene right before the attack (the name of the painting is "A Stab in the Dark"). Sorry - I didn't mean to sidetrack the thread.

http://www.seerey-lester.com/johnhunts1-02.html

www.kimwolhuter.com/harry.htm

17 May 2012, 01:11

Cross L

Several accounts of men killing leopards with their bare hands--I assume they would have taken a pistol if offered.

SSR

17 May 2012, 01:31

LionHunter

A back-up handgun on safari should only be carried by someone proficient with its use and who is comfortable with drawing and using it in critical incident/high stress situations. It should be as large a caliber as can be controlled effectively - think .44mag as a minimum and preferably something larger.

In earlier days, prior to all the "new" african laws regarding handguns, I always took a sidearm to africa. Originally a custom 3" S&W Mdl. 629 and I used it for finishing shots on wounded game and to dispatch diseased Jackals, etc. It was also carried concealed (legally) in the cities for the same purpose one carries CCW in the U.S. Later I hunted africa with a Ruger .480 and a S&W 500, taking PG and Cape Buffalo. I have considered the 500 for Lion and Elephant; perhaps someday.

On 16 safaris I have only had 3 PH who carried a handgun.

17 May 2012, 01:43

MJines

I do not plan to use a pistol or shotgun. I am just going to insist that Buzz not bathe on days we plan to sit in the blind. That way he will smell more like bait than me. To protect my own olfactory organ, I will wear a nose plug.

17 May 2012, 02:16

Scriptus

quote:
Originally posted by Molepolole:
Andrew - This scenario did happen to Harry Wolhuter in the early days of Kruger Park in 1903. He wasn't hunting lion but rather riding on horseback. He ended up killing the lion with a sheath knife, but I bet he wished he'd had a pistol. You can Google his name and find the story. It's a very famous story in Kruger Park's history. The lion's skin and sheath knife are on display in the Hamilton Library in Skukuza Camp in Kruger. If I could figure out how to size photos correctly in PhotoBucket I'd post one of my pics of it. Maybe Ann could post a photo of John Seerey-Lester's painting depicting the scene right before the attack (the name of the painting is "A Stab in the Dark"). Sorry - I didn't mean to sidetrack the thread.

"Memories of a Game Ranger" by Harry Wolhuter, an extraordinary man. One of his contempories, Harold Trollope, his father-in-law, John Glen Leary, was mauled and killed by a leopard in the Kruger. [just a small hi-jack.]

MJines
one of us
Picture of MJines

Posted 17 May 2012 00:43 Hide Post
I do not plan to use a pistol or shotgun. I am just going to insist that Buzz not bathe on days we plan to sit in the blind. That way he will smell more like bait than me. To protect my own olfactory organ, I will wear a nose plug.

Mike

and if he dons that man-kini, maybe the big fellahs might just pop in for a look see?

17 May 2012, 02:21

retreever

I love his hat, and I read it.

Mike

17 May 2012, 02:26

465H&H

John Taylor talks about using a hangun to shoot lions and leopards off of himself. I would make a bet that every PH ever mauled by a lion or leopard whishes he had a handgun on him that day.

465H&H

17 May 2012, 02:29

retreever

A 500grain bullet will knock the crap out of lion or leopard up close and personal stuff.

Mike

17 May 2012, 02:38

tygersman

quote:
Originally posted by Cross L:
Several accounts of men killing leopards with their bare hands--I assume they would have taken a pistol if offered.

SSR

Yes, and I'm sure those dudes would rather have had throwing stars and a nunchucks over bare knuckles but that doesn't really make'em suitable for a cat follow-up or for the every hundred years blind attack. Money better spent on some additional term life coverage (in case you die from said attack), another bottle of whiskey (in case you survive said attack and need to dull the pain), and some good running/dodging shoes (in case you're able to trip the PH - who said it would never happen - when hastily getting the f*** out the blind).

17 May 2012, 21:36

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by 465H&H:
It seems that there is some misunderstanding of what the role of a sidearm is when hunting lion or leopard. any one that would recommend following up a wounded cat with one needs to visit the family psychiatrist. Its Role is as a back up weapon to be used if the cat gets you down and is chewing on you. At that close of quarters, a rifle is nearly useless. Having a short barreled 44 Mag in an open topped belt holster may just keep you from serious if not fatal injuries. It is much better than your pocket knife when that happens. Don Heath carries one and recommends others do so, when hunting cats.

465H&H

quote:
by MacD37:
Others may do as it suits, but the last thing I'd choose to defend myself from a 400 pound lion bent on chewing me up is a damn shotgun!

465H&H, you are quite correct and I always carry a 41 Rem Mag with a 4 5/8 inch barrel in a chest rig when hunting or fishing in brown bear country, and I'm never without it. As you say when he has you down, a rifle is useless but even if one has a pistol I certainly wouldn't choose one chambered for a shotgun shell.

That was my objection, and I have the same objection to a full length shotgun for any purpose where a lion is concerned, unless that is absolutely all I have to fight with!

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17 May 2012, 21:48

jaegerfrank

quote:
Originally posted by jaegerfrank:
When I had to follow a wounded lion once I was given a 44 AutoMag by the very experienced outfitter as some kind of last minute thing. I warmed up to the idea as I am familiar with pistols but would surely have preferred something like N-Frame or 45 Glock. This is in no way questioning that a powerful rifle is the right thing to focus on. Actually on the same opportu ity the other PH swapped his 9,3x74 for a 404. The lion was finally killed by a 458 Lott/ A Square Dead Tougb soft point.

17 May 2012, 22:06

mete

Guns , guns , it's all you can think about !

A recent case in CA - a family was attacked by a mtn lion . Having no guns he killed the cat by bashing his head in with a big cast iron frying pan !

17 May 2012, 22:21

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by mete:
Guns , guns , it's all you can think about !
A recent case in CA - a family was attacked by a mtn lion . Having no guns he killed the cat by bashing his head in with a big cast iron frying pan !

..............

That would make a fine film of "what not to do" if that had been a 400 pound African lion instead of a Cal alley cat!

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17 May 2012, 23:50

Fritz Rabe

I wonder how many hunters here on AR would be hunting cats alone? Rather put your trust in the PH if you are the client or in the client if you are the PH.
The other person will be much better armed and able to shoot the cat off you than any handgun when you are on the ground with a cat biting you.

Fact is. There will be a minimum of two people and two guns in any blind. Three guns and two people just do not add up.

18 May 2012, 00:08

465H&H

quote:
Originally posted by Fritz Rabe:
I wonder how many hunters here on AR would be hunting cats alone? Rather put your trust in the PH if you are the client or in the client if you are the PH.
The other person will be much better armed and able to shoot the cat off you than any handgun when you are on the ground with a cat biting you.

Fact is. There will be a minimum of two people and two guns in any blind. Three guns and two people just do not add up.

I have always gone on the premise that I want to be able to handle any eventuality on my own and not have to count on some one else. If I was a PH the thought of counting on an excited amateur like most safari clients isn't too appealing. You may be in more danger form your back man than the cat, esp. if he is armed with a large caliber rifle or shotgun.

465H&H

18 May 2012, 00:31

Fritz Rabe

We all have those same presumptions and I agree with you BUT, I know for a fact that if a Lion or Leopard does get hold of a person, that person will NOT be able to draw a gun and shoot. I was in the unfortunate position to have experienced it first hand. Trust me.
Your mind is totally occupied with other things like holding a big mouth away from your face than taking 50% of your holding power away to find a handgun and shoot it while you are rolling around.

18 May 2012, 01:12

Cross L

Isn't it a moot point as it is almost impossible to take a small handgun into african countries?

Small defined as holster carried--ie not an 14 in scope sighted hand rifle.

SSR

20 May 2012, 23:25

470EDDY

My very wise old gentleman gunsmith, now passed, always mused to me when talking about taking my 44MAG fishing in Brown Bear country- "that little pipsqueek will make a good signaling device for rescue while up a tree, or last resort- putting it where the sun don't shine so you don't have a painful death!!"
Shotgun might be good for Leopard in the blind...a GOOD Big Stopping Rifle is best for Lion!! Hands down!!
Best Advice, don't let them get that close...shoot straight first off...

21 May 2012, 16:29

Bushwack

quote:
Originally posted by Fritz Rabe:
We all have those same presumptions and I agree with you BUT, I know for a fact that if a Lion or Leopard does get hold of a person, that person will NOT be able to draw a gun and shoot. I was in the unfortunate position to have experienced it first hand. Trust me.
Your mind is totally occupied with other things like holding a big mouth away from your face than taking 50% of your holding power away to find a handgun and shoot it while you are rolling around.

True, very true...

23 May 2012, 09:41

timg953

I recall reading an article by Jack Lott in one of guns and ammo's specialty books where he recommended a large heavy bladed knife for last resort defense against a cat that's on top of you. Personally, i practice a lot and I hire a good PH to back me up and make sure I don't get squished or eaten.

23 May 2012, 10:16

Bwana Moja

I'm with 470EDDY. Best defense is a stone dead first shot. Instead of thinking about what to do when things go bad, focus on how to do it right the first time. All that John Wayne shit isn't necessary in Africa. Guys come to the bush with holsters, and knives and all that crap. Leave all that junk at home. Get seated into that blind with a big bullet chambered in a straight shooting gun. That's all you need.

23 May 2012, 11:33

African Hunters Quest

Where a handgun is useful is when the cat is on top of the PH who intercepted the angry cat and you cant get low enough with a long gun to safely shoot it off of him.

Ganyana rates a 357mag or 41mag with solids as the best way to end a fight with a cat on top of you as it can penetrate to the cns from under the cat if you have had the foresight to feed him your arm on the way in.

This is however worst case scenario and most competent PH's would have settled the matter before it got out of hand with a well placed shot from their rifle.

Whilst you are 99,99% sure that you will never need any of that, I would not want to be unprepared when the tables turn and you become a statistic on that freak chance when a cat takes you by surprise.

23 May 2012, 17:25

fairgame

quote:
Originally posted by Bwana Moja:
I'm with 470EDDY. Best defense is a stone dead first shot. Instead of thinking about what to do when things go bad, focus on how to do it right the first time. All that John Wayne shit isn't necessary in Africa. Guys come to the bush with holsters, and knives and all that crap. Leave all that junk at home. Get seated into that blind with a big bullet chambered in a straight shooting gun. That's all you need.

Well said.

23 May 2012, 21:08

ledvm

Just for the sake of discussion as I agree with Mark...kill'em where he stands with the first shot from your rifle. And...until we were rolling on the ground...I would still opt for my rifle in first line of defence.

But...if I were rolling on the ground with a lion mauling me with one arm in his mouth...I would wish for a .45 ACP 1911 in the other hand.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.

23 May 2012, 22:08

Anjin

Let's face it, we all love threads like this.

Years ago, when I hunted leopard in the Kafue region of Zambia, my PH carried a short Mossberg 10 ga. in the blind. That year he said he was one of only two PHs he knew who had not yet been tagged by a leopard. I swear that his stomach's growling scared away the leopard when it came up right behind the blind in the dark. My hunting buddy brought a .45 ACP 1911, but never found a use for it.

As for Harry Wohlhuter,do a Google search on the internet and you will find much about his encounter, including accounts of the lion attack, pictures of his knife and the lion skin.

The famous explorer Carl Akeley was one who killed a leopard with his bare hands. You can see photos of the heavily bandaged Akeley as well as the leopard skin itself at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago. No doubt Marshall Field bought them, as he did Patterson's Maneaters of Tsavo.

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
. . . .

But...if I were rolling on the ground with a lion mauling me with one arm in his mouth...I would wish for a .45 ACP 1911 in the other hand.

Norman Solberg
International lawyer back in the US after 25 years and, having met a few of the bad guys and governments here and around the world, now focusing on private trusts that protect wealth from them. NRA Life Member for 50 years, NRA Endowment Member from 2014, NRA Patron from 2016.

23 May 2012, 22:13

fairgame

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
Just for the sake of discussion as I agree with Mark...kill'em where he stands with the first shot from your rifle. And...until we were rolling on the ground...I would still opt for my rifle in first line of defence.

But...if I were rolling on the ground with a lion mauling me with one arm in his mouth...I would wish for a .45 ACP 1911 in the other hand.

Great choice Lane but is not bigger better?